E3: Post-Natal Discussion Comments by Ellie Gibson

What amazes me is that people don't seem to comprehend the simple fact that using a controller is an elegant physical shorthand for doing things that are mechanically impossible. When you start tying the same actions to a bodily motion the scope actually narrows, because you need to provide some kind of meaningful physical analogue to the virtual action without exhausting the player or turning it into a chore.

Its also pretty ironic that despite the claims of this type of interface being more inclusive, the added physical fitness requirements actually make it suited to a narrower demographic. I can't see too many seniors having epic sessions on Wii Fit !

@subtlesnake

Your example (the nodding motion) is pretty good, BUT, I'd argue that if a game requires that level of (total) physical involvement like that its going to be annoying as hell to play. Do you really want to play a game where you need to hold your head in a certain position so as not to inadvertently give a particular signal to the NPC?

"While this does open up interesting possibilities, (it would be cool to have It putting your rock band avatars on stage, was my immediate idea"

That is a great idea... I would copyright it before the big companies use it ;)

That would indeed be a rather easy extra that owners of guitar games can get out of a 360 with Natal. I am sure this could already be a big sales advantage.... you can actually move around with your guitar and do poses while your onscreen rock-hero does the same. It has no effect on gameplay, but makes the game more fun. Good stuff. Almost certain to sell well with the correct ad campaign.

"If you mean "exactly, we should ask that question" then fair enough. But I'm not sure that was what you implied."

That was exactly what I implied. As I've repeated on and on, we don't know enough about any of the new controllers to warrant the crazy predictions/claims around here. Given the on-stage demonstrations and actual Wii-mote and sixaxis experience, the best guess is that it will be utterly useless to the established hardcore genres.

"Your example (the nodding motion) is pretty good, BUT, I'd argue that if a game requires that level of (total) physical involvement like that its going to be annoying as hell to play. Do you really want to play a game where you need to hold your head in a certain position so as not to inadvertently give a particular signal to the NPC? "

Well, when you talk other people do you worry about involuntarily moving your head, so as to make them think you agree when you really don't? The point is the system should allow you to move your head about as you normally do, but then when prompted it should look for a specific movement from you, as normal person would.

Again I'm not saying it would be easy for a game to respond to body language in this way, but it does at least seem possible. Now whether you want such a thing I guess depends on how involved you want to be with the game: whether you want to hide behind a 'control wall' or whether you want the game to respond to what you're actually doing. If a character notices you're disinterested (say the system sees you looking away) should he comment on that? So I can understand if you don't want to 'role play' with your actions, but equally, being able to do so allows you to communicate with the game in a much subtler and arguably more immersive way.

@mattigan

Good post, especially the "try playing COD4 with a force feedback steering wheel and see how well you get on. "


@Les

Tbh, I think we agree on this. The only difference is how skeptical we are regards future potential :)

And if I'm honest, I'm probably being a little over-forgiving given how little we know about Natal and how long it will be before its actually out. I think I am just reacting to some bizarre uninformed nay-saying that occurred earlier in the thread.

Wow, people are really either dumb, lacking in imagination, or are just plain stubborn.
I mean, imagine playing Mass effect, where characters can read your face. Get angry at a comment, they respond rightfully. Node/look away, they see that and respond accordingly, shout at them, they back off/become aggresive.
And like the scenario I've mentioned loads of time before, you can play as neo with a pad, and when everyone starts shooting at you, you lift up your and say "stop" and the bullets slow down and stop, then you push it back at them.

I bet those claiming NATAL will be a flop, were those that said the wii would crash and burn.

And peeople that moan about no physical feedback, you would think there were no consoles before the N64 pad and rumble pack.

Imagine playing FIFA 10 vs 10 online and a team mate screws up a through ball. I naturally act out my dissapointment in real life whilst playing, so imagine NATAL noticing that, and the commentary responding to it/and the player acting it out?

"I mean, imagine playing Mass effect, where characters can read your face. Get angry at a comment, they respond rightfully. Node/look away, they see that and respond accordingly, shout at them, they back off/become aggresive."

I have imagined it and stuff like that does absolutely nothing for me. As I pretty much still prefer text in RPGs instead of voice acting (especially if it is as extremely bad as in Fallout and other Bethesda games). I don't have any patience and I basically click through the annoying (and poor) story bits of the typical RPG to get back to the action ASAP.

But I can appreciate that others might think such interaction a positive. Just don't expect anything sophisticated anytime soon and you'll not be disappointed.

"And peeople that moan about no physical feedback, you would think there were no consoles before the N64 pad and rumble pack."

Physical feedback isn't restricted to rumble. The resistance and feel when pressing a button or pushing an analogue stick is feedback as well and much more important TBH than those silly vibrations.

How predictable Les, someone who's waxed lyrical about the Wii mote and how great nintendo are for innovating has done a u-turn... ignore this man he has no integrity, just a simple MS hater.

Anyway trolls aside I think people are starting to see it might actually be put to some good use in the hands of the right developers and also this is just a solid base to build upon, imagine adding a new controller designed to go along with it(either around the same time or next gen) that has its own motion tracking(LEDs for the camera to pick it up and focus and maybe its own motion plus type sensors inside), buttons and triggers for FPS games and the like... devs will have no excuses not to build something really cool with that much to work with.

I think its good that they pointed it out that they arent trying to do away with anything that would take us a step back where its needed(like traditional hardcore games that do need a controller of some sort) only to enhance it where possible, other than that they will be creating something new/untraditional. This should have stopped comments like "blah blah we dont want to be flailing around in FPS' and waving our arms around" except some people are just looking for negatives and will ignore statements from the source which should have already have answered them... because thats what trolls do isnt it.

By the way I think leaning forward and backwards to control acceleration and breaking ect, in a racing game/flying game/superman type game might actually work well if its done right.(if you are honestly saying you cant be bothered to lean froward in your chair... get out lol)

I think, tbh, Burnout is a really bad example. The cool thing about Natal, and the point that all the positive people ar ejumping on, is that it allows game developers to think of a new control set for a whole new range of game mechanics. If game developers really take advantage of this and get inventive, rather than copy and paste existing templates on top, it could be awesome - but there is a MASSIVE danger that they're going to go all 3rd party wii on us.

As Speilberg said, it's not about reinventing the wheel, it's about not having a wheel at all. Meh, perhaps that's why they played Burnout without a wheel. Trying to be symbolic :P

"As Speilberg said, it's not about reinventing the wheel, it's about not having a wheel at all."

And that's where his logic is faulty. Natal is just a replacement wheel. Though not physical, it's still a controller.

A game that I feel would be perfect for Natal are action RPG games like the Witcher, Dragon Age or even Diablo. The fact that you can use the standard gamepad but also use your hand to interact with the game interface like the Witcher. I can select those options on the screen the same way I do with a mouse which can free up those buttons for other things.

As I see it, there are two key areas of potential with Natal. Firstly, there's the obvious one that they put in the video, whereby you get full-body motion tracking (if it works) that can be used for the wii sports / ea sports actives, raving rabbids and punch outs of the world.

Secondly, there's the unique advantage that it can be used in combination with the standard Xbox 360 joypad. This is the, for me, the largest advantage over Sony and Nintendo's solutions. In fact, Nintendo's tethering of its motion controller to the left hand side of a proper joypad via a cable is a half-assed attempt to get past this very problem.

Not only is there the obvious potential of head tracking, but also, one can easily let go of the joypad with one hand, to perform whatever gestures might be necessary in the air, and return to using the pad normally when the motion control interlude is over.

It's been stated numerous times in these forums that invisible steering wheels would be poor because it's unnatural to hold one's hands a set distance apart. But what if ones hands are holding the standard xbox controller. One could drive by pantomiming steering, and pivoting ones feet to accelerate and brake (I'd hope that'd work even sitting, coffee tables notwithstanding), but also have access to a full gamut of buttons for gears, weapons, etc. It could even use headtracking to make in-car viewpoints more worthwhile.

If it works, and if, as is asserted, there's no considerable CPU overhead, Natal could add considerable nuances to hardcore games as well as open up the 360 to the novelty and fitness genres properly.

One of the major advantages Natal has right now, I believe, is the buzz around it. People, developers included, are expecting great things of Natal (as opposed to, say, the Live Vision Camera, which was very much an afterthought), and hopefullt that'll be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

"""If there's "prediction" and "confidence" involved in tracking points, is it precise enough to stick a cursor on screen?"

Exactly. "

What do you mean "exactly"?

First off, perhaps it IS accurate enough. We simply don't know. If you mean "exactly, we should ask that question" then fair enough. But I'm not sure that was what you implied.

Regardless, who said that being able to locate a pointer onscreen was a mandatory requirement for any control system? And lets not hold up the Wii as a cast iron example. I've used a Wii, and its pointer abilities are not really on a par with lightguns of 15 years ago. The key thing is that for most Wii games, the accuracy is not crucial. Equally, some of the ways Natal could be implemented may not require that precise ability either (yes I know an fps would, but the fps genre is not the centre of the universe). "


I'd imagine "prediction" and "confidence" can be used to greater/lesser extent depending on the app. The example they used was swinging a bat, prediction makes sense as it's a fast movement where high confidence should be fairly easy to get (I'd imagine a good number of the 48 tracking points are used in a movement like this). Moving a pointer however does not need to be near as fast so just turn prediction off and track it completely in real time.

"One of the major advantages Natal has right now, I believe, is the buzz around it."

Yeah, unbelievable... Makes one doubt humanity. But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start... :/

"Yeah, unbelievable... Makes one doubt humanity. But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start... :/"

You're trying way too hard. It's great tech and in the right hands it could be fantastic. I don't think anyone has claimed anything other than that.

Take off your Nintentard goggles and see reality. You seem very upset by Natal - and the only reason I can think of is because you feel threatened that the Wii-mote may not be the mainstay you feel it should be. Let's face it, though, the Wii-mote was a stepping stone to what technology is really capablle of.

But people will have forgotten all about it when it finally hits the market and turns out to be as rubbish as was apparent from the start...

Don't you want it to succeed, if it works, and produces great new games? I certainly do, and that goes for motionplus and Sony's twin phalli as well.

I'm pretty skeptical about this, I imagine in the real world it will struggle to identify you even exist, let alone allow complex full body motions to be mapped into games, while simultaneously allowing developers to instantly create 20 times as much content as they do at present to allow for characters to respond to their moods.

Anyone remember the Wii trailers? They went for a similarly big sell. What did we get? A controller that can just about tell that it's moving.

"Don't you want it to succeed, if it works, and produces great new games?"

I'm happy for it to succeed if it makes games better (though TBH technical progress is starting to hurt games more than it benefits them IMO - game designers should seriously consider the less is more paradigm). But I'm not happy when cheap marketing tricks like this work. Just like I'm not happy to be reminded that a significant portion of my fellow citizens consists of idiots after every election...

problem i see with natal is cost and accuracy. i cant see microsoft selling it for 20-30 pound. theyve clearly invested alot of money into it and will likely want to recoup that investment by whacking up the cost. as most peripherals sell for 80-100 (ie rock band/guitar hero bundles) i reckon itll likely sell for around 75 bundled with a game.

given that the camera is based on depth i was interested in what happened with the e3 avatar screwing up. its almost like it was unable to interpret the depth/ positioning of the leg. and as a result was unable to determine where the limbs were in 3d space. also in the video it didnt actually seem that acurate. when you compare the guys movements with the avatars movements... it wasnt like it was totally accurate.

i think its a nice concept tho. and tech wise was perhaps not as solid/ usable as ps3 wand thing.

@ Les

Yes les, because all games must make sure it caters to your very "unique"(old) taste before release.
/sarcasm

"I'm happy for it to succeed if it makes games better (though TBH technical progress is starting to hurt games more than it benefits them IMO - game designers should seriously consider the less is more paradigm). But I'm not happy when cheap marketing tricks like this work. Just like I'm not happy to be reminded that a significant portion of my fellow citizens consists of idiots after every election..."


But Natal's unproven nature means that Microsoft *need* to generate significant enthusiasm for it; otherwise developers won't invest and we'll never find out what its potential could be. And equally that means that Microsoft have no choice but to show off tech demos - if they knew how to best utilise the technology then their work would already be done! It's only when (if) the technology becomes mainstream, that we'll know what it's good for, but Microsoft can't get to that point without relying on visionary statements, and perhaps vacuous promises. Was that not the way with the Wii?

Of course there's no guarantee that the technology will work as intended, but that's the case with anything. I'd hate to live in a world in which we couldn't get excited about *any* unproven advances. And in what way would this world be better if people were to cynical to invest any interest in Natal? Maybe if Natal fails, that's one less 'broken promise' but developers break hundreds of promises as it is.

If Natal fails we'll just look back in a few years and think "remember that crazy technology demo" like we remember the countless other crazy demos that never came to fruition. But I think it's at least worth investing the effort and the imagination to explore what the technology might be able to offer, rather than just standing by the sidelines and laughing at everyone else's naivety.

"It's been stated numerous times in these forums that invisible steering wheels would be poor because it's unnatural to hold one's hands a set distance apart. But what if ones hands are holding the standard xbox controller. One could drive by pantomiming steering, and pivoting ones feet to accelerate and brake (I'd hope that'd work even sitting, coffee tables notwithstanding), but also have access to a full gamut of buttons for gears, weapons, etc. It could even use headtracking to make in-car viewpoints more worthwhile."

An argument still needs to be made for why that's better than just using the trigger for gas and the analog stick for steering. Pantomiming a steering wheel has been used in racing games for a long time with both the Six Axis and Wiimote. It also remains to be seen whether the algorithms used by natal can handle foreign objects. A lot of presumptions the technology uses to construct the simple skeleton rely on standard human anatomy.

I find it ironic that certain posters on this site had difficulties believing in the potential of PS3, yet for a truly fantasy MS product like this that potential is much easier to grasp.

Personally, as an optimist who believed in the potential of both Wii and PS3, I have no difficulties in believing in the potential of new tech that aspires to give us gamers new experiences.

Full credit to you MS, I'm impressed and intrigued.

@JohnnyWashnGo

"Plus, I don't see how flailing around holding, pushing, pulling imaginary objects could be an enjoyable experience. Sounds like an invitation for muscle ache to me. "

Not only imagination ur lacking.. If holding a damn Wiimote pretending its a sword would make it so much more bettera nd realistic to you instead of nothing go grab a damn fake sword and play . Natal will still work dumbasss. Or that doesnt sound like a better option for you than a Wiimote or a wand? Id tell you to go get a knife to swing as a sword but i highly doupt you would manage the first lvl alive in whatever you might be playing.. Literally lol