Dr. Phil tackles Xbox Live racism

By Robert Purchese Published 11 January, 2008

Having done so well with Britney.

US telly therapist Dr. Phil has heard how Microsoft is not doing enough to combat racist bullies on Live.

On the show this week, concerned and irate father Terry told viewers he had been called a "monkey" and been threatened with lynching when playing on the service.

"I love playing videogames as much as I like eating food. I've been a loyal customer to Xbox Live and Xbox 360," began Terry.

"Now it's gotten worse with the racial slurs, the name-calling and the bullying online. I've been called 'monkey,' or 'Are your hands greasy from eating all that chicken?' [and] 'I'm going to put a lynch on your door.'"

Worse for Terry is having to prevent his children from using the console online in an effort to shield them from the abuse.

"I've had to stop my children from playing online, my 10-year-old daughter, my 13-year-old son, and even my 5-year-old son. He asks me, 'Daddy, why can't I play online with you? I want to play that,' and I say, 'No.' He goes, 'Why? Are they going to call me names?' I think that's sad for a 5-year-old to know that," said Terry.

But despite the atrocious comments made by spotty boys in their underpants, Microsoft needs at least 10 complaints about a particular customer before it does anything about it, says Terry. And Terry is not happy.

"I called Xbox Live. I gave them all the information they needed to know, and they told me before they can do anything, take any kind of action, there has to be 10 complaints filed against [the other player]," he said, blood boiling.

"That's like you coming to my house, robbing me, and I call the police. Are they going to tell me, 'Well, if that guy comes back to your house 10 times, we'll come out and do something about it'? I think that's disgusting. I think Mr. Gates needs to change that rule, and I think it needs to be changed immediately."

His family are genuinely scared, too, even if Terry tries to hide the worst of it from them.

"I just feel like on the Internet, in this situation, anything is possible. I don't know who these people are. They claim to be the KKK, and I have a really big problem with that," Terry's wife Nydia tells Dr. Phil.

"They're calling my children monkeys, that they're going to hang them, they're going to kill them, they're going to kill me. It's crazy, and it's out of control. Nobody is trying to do anything about this. My husband has contacted Microsoft for many years, and I don't understand why the FBI is not all over this."

As a result of the show, Terry had a Microsoft investigator assigned to him to check it all out and Dr. Phil called the anonymous abusers bullies.

Picture of Robert.

About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (153) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • bengray66 #1 4 years ago

    I think something really needs to be done about the racism on Live. Pretty much every game i have played online (COD4 seems the worst to me for it) i've had to listen too it. Normally i just ignore them, but that is just brushing the problem under the mat. I don't like to complain about people, but now whenever i hear it, i automatically report the user.

    Were in the 21st Century people, act like it.

  • stephenb #2 4 years ago

    Why is a 5 year old playing a 360 online?

  • bengray66 #3 4 years ago

    Oh! so its the dad's fault that his 5 year old children are getting racially abused! Thank god we sorted that out! we can all go home and relax!

    Great comment Stephenb! :-\

    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 09:28

  • w00t #4 4 years ago

    Yes, the rascism you can hear on Live is appalling at times. But you have the option to mute them or to take the headset out...

  • bengray66 #5 4 years ago

    hoorah for mute!

    Whilst we at it ignoring the problem, we can all turn our backs and walk the other way when we see someone getting raped or mugged! What a world we live in!

    (BTW in case you hadn't noticed, i take racism rather seriously)

  • Lexx87 #6 4 years ago

    I don't use my headset online at all unless it's a game of worms or something with my own mates.

    The idiots who play online just prove why this world is falling apart.

  • viper_h #7 4 years ago

    How do they know this guy's black?

  • redneon Verified Programmer, SUMO Digital #8 4 years ago

    Hear hear.

    I'm sick and tired of all the racism, xenophobia and general abuse that is dished out on XBL. I've lost count of the number of people I've muted because of it. Swearing, I don't mind so much because in the frustration I have been known to utter a few myself but they weren't directed at anyone :)

    I don't understand, however, why he doesn't just turn off the headset audio on the dashboard when his kids want to play online...
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 09:35

  • clean515 #9 4 years ago

    How the hell do they know he is black ? His name is probably "niggaftwLULZ" it's annoying yes but as i can read there is a option to mute them ( i dont have 360 myself)
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 09:36

  • haubitzer #10 4 years ago

    He ought to use the option that puts outgoing and incoming voicechat to friends only.

  • mechamonkey #11 4 years ago

    I never use my headset on Live in public games anymore because I just cant stand this kind of behaviour that I _constantly_ hear in games.

    I've tried reporting people over and over again but nothing ever sems to get done.
    Edited by 2 at 11/01/08 @ 09:40

  • jonsaan #12 4 years ago

    Can't they have online mods who just ban people? You don't have to listen to people though. Mute em all.

  • bad09 #13 4 years ago

    you have to feel for him but personally I have never heard any kind of racism on Live. Lots of idiots abusing people or making irritating noises, but no racial slurs. Maybe that because I'm in the recreation zone? I wonder what zone he uses?

    Dr Phil talking Xbox Live cracks me up though! I'm gonna have to watch that!

  • Heitzu #14 4 years ago

    He should get a Wii, no chance of it on there.
    Though racism is bad the whole point of name calling in games and sports is to put your opponent off.

  • Fab4 #15 4 years ago

    You are kidding, right? XBL is full of racists. This number usually increases whenever xbox do a free weekend...surprisingly. I'm also in Recreation zone, but zones arent used to match you up with people on XBL so it makes little odds what you are. I remember there was one guy who just signed in to the game lobby in CoD4 Beta and immediately asked "Are there any P**is on here? I hope you all burn in hell". Effing loser. I wish XBL actually acted on complaints filed.

  • bad09 #16 4 years ago

    @ Fab4

    The zones are used to separate people, that's the whole point of the zones.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 09:51

  • Scurrminator #17 4 years ago

    ILL PUT THIS ON CAPS SO YOU ALL SEE

    THIS WILL SORT OUT THIS ISSUE

    BOOT THE 360 AND HIGHLIGHT YOUR GAMERCARD IN THE DASHBOARD.
    PRESS A AND THEN GO TO ACCOUNT MANAGEMENT >PRIVACY OPTIONS> TEXT AND CHAT (OR VOICE AND CHAT)
    SET TO FRIENDS ONLY FOR CHAT

    THIS WILL MEAN THAT ONLY THOSE ON YOUR FRIENDS LIST WILL BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH YOU IN LIVE GAMES AND IT'S AWESOME.

  • thomastantrum #18 4 years ago

    "I wish XBL actually acted on complaints filed"

    They do. Go onto the xbox forum and there are always people complaining that they have been banned. The fact of the matter is that if you give certain people anonymity and a microphone, they're going to say anything to stir up trouble.

  • peterfll #19 4 years ago

    I had no idea it was this bad. I think people should be using the "file complaint" option more often.

    If all people do is place others on mute it's hardly helping to solve the problem. Follow due process and then at least it makes MS responsible for doing something about it.

  • PEANUTXXI #20 4 years ago

    Agreed. It's disgusting the stuff I hear on live these days. I personally find Halo the worst for it, probably due to the large community. But some of things I've heard on there are ridiculous. Race aside, the stick I've taken for being English sometimes gets a bit annoying (not just from American's). I don't mind a bit of banter but some people take it too far.

  • OldMan #21 4 years ago

    Strange how experiences differ. I must say that I think the verbal abuse problem has become much better with the new Live service. With the old Xbox it was often unbearable, but after they introduced Rep it seems to have improved -- at least in my experience.

    The frustrated swearing that is not directed at anyone doesn't bother me at all -- it has often given me good laughs. Racism and threats are quite another matter though -- these can outright destroy a game. With the old service, I would hear that kind of crap in one out of three games, and now it's maybe one out of ten. Maybe I have just been plain lucky for once:)

  • iter #22 4 years ago

    While I do understand that it is totally crap for people to have to listen to the shit these guys come out with, I also understand that Microsoft want to have a minimum number of complaints against a user, before taking action. Unfortuntely, if it was instant ban there are too many idiots that would just report you if you beat them in a game.

    Finally, I have a question: If someone gets banned, is it just that gamertag, or does it actually prevent that person from re-registering using the same address / credit card i.e. can these people just re-register with a new gamertag?

  • mossychops001 #23 4 years ago

    Black, White, Asian,Chinese people being racist to each other, NEVER!

  • thomastantrum #24 4 years ago

    I agree Halo is the worst. My friends and I have got abuse for being English before, though it was such scornful remarks as; " You've got shit teeth" and calling us " bloody wankers" in an Austin Powers accent. I just wish Amerincans came up with better insults.

  • Kiigan #25 4 years ago

    Xbox Live is like any other internet service... the anonymity encourages stupid people to say stupid things when they have an audience. Big whoop, people suck. That's what the "mute" button is for, and it works. Xbox Live gives really comprehensive controls to combat this sort of thing if you want to. You don't need to ever hear from anyone you don't want to. You can block communication with anyone you want, completely. You can avoid encountering them in games again too by submitting reviews. I fail to understand how this man is having such a problem - how do these people know your skin colour at all anyway, why share so much information with random strangers? And once someone has proven themselves to be an annoying racist idiot, given that you have the power to never ever hear from them again and effectively block out their existence on Xbox Live completely, why not do that?

    The 10 complaints thing is actually pretty reasonable - anyone can make a complaint about anyone and without proof it is just one person's word against another. However with a certain number of complaints a pattern is clear and they'll take action.

    @benray66 I suggest you take a deep fucking breath and think if you think it is acceptable to compare real-world crimes against a person such as rape or robbery to a bunch of dumb kids mouthing off some racial epithets on Xbox Live. Keep things in perspective please. There is way to moderate every game on Xbox Live, and it certainly isn't reasonable to start banning people on the say-so of just one peson. The current system works if you let it work. All the tools you need to avoid rude racist idiots are at your disposal.

  • skillian #26 4 years ago

    Can't players vote to kick or ban players from the server? Or aren't there admin controls?

    I agree that people shouldn't have to put up with stuff like that, and the more it is allowed to go on, the more it is copied by other younger players and seen as acceptable.

  • bad09 #27 4 years ago

    @ Kiigan

    You are absolutely right the old saying springs to mind "sticks and stones...."

    That's coming from someone who has suffered racism in the real world, although not for many years now as the UK is no way as bad as it used to be.

    Like kiigan says, you have the power to silence them!

  • The-Bodybuilder #28 4 years ago

    The issue is that people aren't logging complaints. It's the responsibility of everyone.
    Obviously MS can't ban people based on one complaint. Even racist trolls online make complaints about people when they loose.

    Start making complaints people.

    As for me, I can count the number of trolish encounters on one hand, luckily.

  • skillian #29 4 years ago

    The end of that saying is "but names will never hurt me" - which, frankly, is completely untrue.

  • Eighthours #30 4 years ago

    The level of racism on Live is unacceptable and something needs to be done about the effectiveness of complaints.

    However, the yawnsome argument that everyone on Live is an idiot, and that Nintendo are right for not having voice chat on the Wii is rubbish. Sadly, Live just reflects society - there are a lot of bloody idiots in society, too.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 10:27

  • bengray66 #31 4 years ago

    "f you think it is acceptable to compare real-world crimes against a person such as rape or robbery to a bunch of dumb kids mouthing off some racial epithets on Xbox Live. Keep things in perspective please."

    and there was me thinking racism was a crime.... It is a crime, and it is perfectly comparable to your "real world crimes".

  • OldMan #32 4 years ago

    @Kiigan

    Agree

  • The-Bodybuilder #33 4 years ago

    >"How the hell do they know he is black ?"

    Have you been on LIVE? They don't need an excuse to make racial slur.
    Heck, you could be white, and they'll still call you a nigga or a terrorist bastard. If you constantly do that, you're bound to come across blacks or muslims or any other ethnic minority.

  • kangarootoo #34 4 years ago

    @viper_h

    "How do they know this guy's black?"

    1. Read article

    2. Apply common sense and a basic knowledge of racial slurs.



    I'm with bengray66 on this one. All those suggesting mute options are being dullards. Lets actually look at what you are suggesting here. A service that people pay for is allowing them to be subjected to racist verbal attack, and your solution is to disable parts of the service THAT THEY HAVE PAID FOR. MS control the service, so they can take further steps to reduce the problem.

    Yes I know "its the internet", but XBLive is not just the internet. Its a controlled service and MS can do what they like, if they have the will to.

    Seriously, if a black footballer is abused by the crowd at a game do people simply suggest he wear earplugs next time he plays? Muppets.

  • The-Bodybuilder #35 4 years ago

    >"Maybe that because I'm in the recreation zone?"

    Possibly.
    I'm in the recreation zone too, and I've only ever played one ranked game on LIVE. Might explain why I rarely come across it too.

  • kangarootoo #36 4 years ago

    @Eighthours

    Live doesn't reflect all of society. Its unfortunately reflects a part of society that is slightly more immature than the rest. It also reflect a part of society that deals badly with losing (given the mostly competetive situations in which people meet on Live).

  • knocker #37 4 years ago

    I report them. *Always* report them. Muting does nothing to resolve the problem.

  • Frumper #38 4 years ago

    Well for the kids there are parental controls so they can only hear their friends. If they are still being racially abused then they've got the wrong friends.

    For the Dad there is the mute button, is doesn't stop racism but it stops it affecting him.

    Also, Major Nelson's last podcast had an interview with the security manager who explained, in detail, the complaints system. He claims 'EVERY' complaint is looked at, there is no threshold of 10.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 10:34

  • Luvbeers #39 4 years ago

    Dr. Phil has a PhD in something like arthritis from some shitty 4th tier school in north texas. I do not know where he gets off pretending to be a psychologist the muppet!

  • agentq #40 4 years ago

    However, the yawnsome argument that everyone on Live is an idiot, and that Nintendo are right for not having voice chat on the Wii is rubbish. Sadly, Live just reflects society - there are a lot of bloody idiots in society, too.

    Fortunately, in the real world you get to associate with friends and family who are not going to be racist towards you. I'd be extremely worried if I thought the Live userbase reflects society. In general I don't get abuse shouted at me while walking down the streets all that often compared to what I've heard about playing games on Live.

    Of course, maybe all the people I'm passing on the street would shout abuse at me if we were playing Halo and I'd just killed them. I'd like to think not though.

  • Yaster #41 4 years ago

    @ Scurrminator

    Using the friends only chat IS a good solution offerred by the 360 but I often play in rooms with friends of friends as there is no room for them on my list. A good option for a future firmware update would be to use voice chat in private rooms only.

    And thats another solution for an abuse free experience when playing online, play in prvate rooms only. The only problem is games like CoD4 which forces you to play with all the scum in order to unlock all the weapons equipment etc. Down with that!

  • dr_shambles #42 4 years ago

    Racist twerps are really annoying and should be barred. Surely there's something in the EULA or terms of service to stop this?

    Either that or have a button marked 'We'll tell your mother'.

  • The-Bodybuilder #43 4 years ago

    >"All those suggesting mute options are being dullards. "

    It's the passivity of society. People only care for themselves and look out for themselves. That's why when theives are running through shopping centres, everybody stands by and watches, not even sticking a leg out.

    Muting is passive, logging complaints is active. Muting (alone) is selfish, logging complaints is selfless. IMO.

  • Roamer #44 4 years ago

    Three comments on Xbox Live;

    Firstly; It's impossible to cancel an Xbox Live subscription. I can't find a way to do it on my Xbox, and there's no mention of how to do it on Microsoft's support site. Incredibly annoying, I just wanted to have the ability to play some games online for the holidays - didn't work, obviously, since Live was down. I can't even delete my credit card details. This has to be illegal.

    Secondly; I still can't find any servers for most games. I'm not allowed to join any Call of Duty 3-games. Puzzle Quest and Carcassone are barren in terms of playerbase. Hard to find games for Shadowrun too. What the funk am I paying for if Microsoft doesn't even have any dedicated servers!? It's scandalous.

    Thirdly; When I get into a game, usually for Gears of War (boring multiplayer), I get insulted by some stupid American punks. The Burnout demo was better, but the guys I was playing against were British so it was all laughs and jokes instead of insults and swearing.

    PSN seems much better, although I've only played Warhawk and Fifa. Warhawk is much cheaper than most Xbox360 games, plus it's downloadable. Warhawk even has dedicated servers, and it's free to play. I feel stupid for paying for a faulty service, that I can't even unsubscribe to. Conclusion: Live sucks.

  • Roamer #45 4 years ago

    Oh, and Microsoft's support site won't even answer my e-mails asking how to quit Live.

  • bad09 #46 4 years ago

    @ skillian
    I do know what you mean, words do hurt some people, but for me ANY name calling etc (not just racial) is just a reflection on how uneducated and just plain dumb some people are (a fact of life unfortunately). It doesn't bother me as they are just words from idiots. Remember Live is still the internet and like a few have already said the idiot kids/teens (let's face it these are generally the ones doing these sort of things on Live) get brave online. They wouldn't it outside of their bedrooms or in ear shoot of their parents!

    I was just thinking though, surely when this does happen everyone else in the game would say something to these twats? I know I would!

    @ Roamer

    This is a serious discussion about racism not "my PS3 is better than your 360!"
    Edited by 2 at 11/01/08 @ 11:03

  • Madafunkola #47 4 years ago

    I stopped playing public games years ago because of the abuse and general foul language, and it's not just racism - the most frequent word I heard on Halo games was "fag" or "queer". These days I stick to privately hosted lobby's (lobbies?) with people I know and trust. It does take the fun out of it sometimes, but it's less fun when you're just bombarded with abuse. The annonimity afforded by people thanks to the internet needs to be broken so things like this (and myspace/messanger/facebook bullying) can be properly sorted.

  • KillerMonkey #48 4 years ago

    I always find it rather amusing if someone starts hurling insults and slurs at me online.
    Just laugh at it, it's probably the most annoying thing you can do back at them too.

    Silly noobcake: "lolz u niggah u suk monkey bawlz lmao"
    Me: *hearty laughter in reply*
    Silly noobcake: *fails and shuts up*

  • louyfitz #49 4 years ago

    lol.

    He better hope he dont play against me, I love taking the piss.

    It's part of the fun, besides there is a mute option if he dont wanna join in.

    lol, KKK, people take all this far too seriously, I nearly had a full blow arguement with someone on H3 the other day because he called me a cockney (and he was crap), turned out I just let the game settle it for me.

    When he come out with 5 kills and I had 34, that kinda solved the whole issue.


    The moral is let the game do the talking, if you beat the racists then who need compaints and Dr. whoever-the-fuck, if they beat you then shut up and get practicing.

  • ElasticTangent #50 4 years ago

    Trying to weed out the racists on Live is no easier trying to do it in real life. Next to impossible. I'm sure the racists on Live have filed complaints against people they are abusing just to get them banned so how can MS figure out who is telling the truth? The real problem is that you have one hell of a time trying to prove one thing or another as there is no evidence. In the UK if someone walked up to you in the street and verbally racially abused you there is very little the police could or would do.

    As many people have already said Live is just reflection on the real world but it is worse because a lot of the players are still 'young' and have not yet formed real opinions of their own yet. I live in the UK and haven't ever been racially abused so I won't pretend to know how it feels but gaming should be fun and getting abused is not fun in any shape or form.

  • mezzomorto #51 4 years ago

    Another reason why you'd probably find a high incidence of racist slurs on XBLA is the illusion of anonymity XBLA (or the Internet or behind the wheel, etc) )creates.
    It's a lot easier to insult someone if you're not face to face with him/her and there's zero risk of RL retaliation (physical or otherwise) => Report them


  • barnard666 #52 4 years ago

    go to parental controls and turn of the conversation capacity if you dont like it. I agree that kids are offensive and stupid, but unfortunately that's to be expected. they'll be going aftyer forum flamers next - which maybe they should!

    imagine this horrible outcome - "Microsoft now record all live conversations, in order that they may be reviewed in the case of offensive drivel!"

  • Yaster #53 4 years ago

    @ Roamer and the guy who flamed him, I'm not going back a page :p

    The reason PS3 seems a little more friendly is because not everyone has a head set as you have to buy them seperatly
    Also for those who don't like playing with Americans games like Warhawk offer seperate servers for your location (EU/US)

  • bad09 #54 4 years ago

    @ Yaster

    I wasn't flaming him, I just think his comments were irrelevant on this discussion.

    But you have a point there about PS3, but I wonder if PS3 will have the same problem when more people start talking online, especially as you guys are getting home.

  • systems #55 4 years ago

    There's not just racism on Live, there's nationalism too. Before I switched to allowing "friends only" on voice chat I (and anyone else English) would quite often be called a "tea-drinking faggot" on US servers. Which is very funny looking back on it but it's annoying at the time when heard from the screechy whiny voice of a US teen.

    They only do it because they can hide behind their anonymity, rather like forum trollers, and can't do it in real life as they're puny little gits. If Live posted your name and address they'd soon shut up.

  • rudedudejude #56 4 years ago

    haha, it's all those american rednecks, give them a mic and they think they own the place.

    Quite funny really, in pc gaming they just get booted and it's minimal anyway cause online gaming has been around for so long.

    Give a bunch of 12 year old american a mic and they spray their shorts it seems.

  • bad09 #57 4 years ago

    @ systems

    "I (and anyone else English) would quite often be called a "tea-drinking faggot""

    I actually think that's quite funny! But you are right A LOT of the abuse come from yanks, not all, but most of it. Probably pissed they can't fit through their front door!

  • Lemming81 #58 4 years ago

    Wii friend codes don't looks so stupid now, do they frothing-fanboy-tards? ;)

  • Skooch #59 4 years ago

    I have been verbally abused online for just about everything:
    - being English
    - playing badly
    - playing very well
    - saying something
    - not saying anything
    - and yes, being white (it was assumed I was white by having an English accent)

    The point is that anonymous people will shout abuse at anyone because it gives them a chance to vent their immature anger. I just don't respond and file a complaint after the match and give them bad feedback. However, I don't bother complaining over people saying "We're gonna kick your ass!" or "You're going down" as that is all part of the competitive nature of playing online.

    If enough people did this many more would get banned and people would start thinking before they speak.

  • Rodster #60 4 years ago

    Here's a real easy solution. "Don't wear a headset". That's why I refuse to put on a damn headset in the first place. I remember when Live first started and Microsoft sarted rolling out the commercials in the US. The theme was all about talking smack. You guys might have another term for it.

    I knew it was the beginning of trouble. Unless your playing with friends don't wear a headset.

  • skillian #61 4 years ago

    Again I ask, can players vote to kick or ban other players from the server? If not, why not?

    Microsoft can't police every server, but other players should be able to police themselves.

  • Velios #62 4 years ago

    Voice recognition.

    There needs to be a system where it detects people who use racist remarks and remove them from the server.

  • rashes #63 4 years ago

    I am a 360 owner but I hear that there is not as much of this on PSN ??

    Anecdotally, I hear this type of stuff mainly (but not always) from Americans teens.
    Its unfortunate and I wonder that they must have a lot more serious issues with race over there than I would have imagined.

    Americans and English seem to really go at each other alot too. That surprised me a bit.
    (I'm Irish btw)

    The main argument I have lately on live is telling Americans not to scream at people that are not speaking English.
    "Speak F*&king English!!" Ridiculous.

  • Eighthours #64 4 years ago

    I'd be extremely worried if I thought the Live userbase reflects society. In general I don't get abuse shouted at me while walking down the streets all that often compared to what I've heard about playing games on Live.

    If you played football, you'd get abused all the time by the opposition. Competitive activities bring out the worst in certain people. Also, if like me you live in a nice middle -class bubble, then you won't often associate with racist fools in real life! Sadly this element is more prevalent in society than we'd all hope.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 11:34

  • Sulphur_Man #65 4 years ago

    Racial abuse between kids is decades old. It's got nothing to do with Xbox Live. Dr.Phil is very narrow-minded to accuse online gaming, these are just ignorant, insecure kids trying to find fault with anything but themselves. They'll learn..... and if they don't then being a racist adult won't get them very far.

  • Dark_Stranger #66 4 years ago

    As its already been said, the majority of the abuse comes from lower teenage american boys. I cant recall ever hearing a British teenager person giving abuse, although I have heard armericans taking the piss out of non-english speaking gamers as they dont speak english. How small minded is that! I have also been in a situation why some teen yank was screaching down the mic like micky mouse, so i asked him to be quiet, the flood gates opened and it was like having cartman on the end of the mic. So me and mates left game & joined another, only to be followed by the young lad with more abuse.

    Fortunatley, we are in a different time zone, so only bump into the twats in the early hours or 1st thing in the mornings.

  • IneptPercy #67 4 years ago

    I ahve to say I have been on xbox live for many years and I personnaly have only ever made 2 compliants and more often leave feedback.

    For the complaints they where just downright racists and genrally disruptive.

    Most of the time its just making them avoided player.

    I must say muting all isn't the answer for me as I would never find new friends etc. I have played many games with people from around the world and my personal opinion is that its a small minority ruining it, say for every american who gives me abuse I have had 'normal' conversations 10 more. In some cases we have a laugh about 'cultural differences' but I think most of the time its the way its said which is the problem, it can be funny when you take turns.

    I remember having a debate with some americnas about which is best, England or America. They did point out to me that I would be speaking german if it wasn't for them in the war, but then I pointed out they wold still be in there underwear chasing buffalo if it wasn't for us. As I say it was all light hearted humour and we all had a laugh.

    I think the most negative feedback I have recieved is unsporting conduct, but I have had that left for winning a race on PGR4 by out racing people dispite them trying to knock me off the road everytime I tried to pass. Some people just don't like losing.

  • prolific8 #68 4 years ago

    [link url=http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=TEWIw-a0GJw
    ]http://www .youtube.com/watch?v=TEWIw-a0GJw
    [/link]

    Sums the whole thing up in one short little video.

  • jlaakso #69 4 years ago

    Yeah, you hear it all the time. Without exception, from Americans.

    I'm positive that MS is working on speech pattern recognition triggering recording of voice comms to make it easier to kick out the badmouths. As someone already mentioned, posting everyone's full name on Live would also help a lot.

    I would pay extra to get an adults only corner of Live. Simply keeping the brats and teenagers out helps to no end.

    Waiting for these developments, I make it a point to always leave a complaint whenever I feel bad about some idiot's behavior. THey'll never learn otherwise.

  • Dermoth #70 4 years ago

    "If you played football, you'd get abused all the time by the opposition."

    The difference being that you get paid to play football. If you were paying for the privilege of being racially abused, it would bedifferent. Like how Xbox Live is different .

    Bad09 - you think racism's serious but homophobia's funny?

    Otherwise, more or less what the sensible people in this thread have said; Xbox Live is a proprietary, closed service run by one company, and they are responsible for what happens on that service. It is ENTIRELY unlike the unregulated, ungovernable wider internet. And, muting doesn't work, not least because the headset's purpose isn't just a fun racism facilitator, it's an integral part of a lot of online games.

    Do Microsoft have the ability to review player chat? I'm guessing all that voice data gets stored somewhere. If so, or even if it's possible but they don't do it, Microsoft have no excuses. I'd like to see a zero tolerance policy, frankly; use any racial insult and you get a weeks ban. Repeat offenders get lifetime bans. Problem solved in about thirty seconds.

    Terribly unfair on the racist knuckledraggers, of course. OH. NO.

  • Montiem #71 4 years ago

    How do the other people online know that he is from an ethnic background???
    Ive been playing for years and have never heard any kind of racism. Unless he is telling everyone at the beginning of a match, which would be kind of pointless.
    Also, I dont let my 11 year old son play online with a headset. I find it bloody irritating when a sqeaky kid comes up on live and starts talking shit. Ban kids from live!!! Live is for adults.
    Anyway, it is bad that he has been abused verbally, but then again, I've been called a number of obscenities on live- sticks and stones?
    I know- I'll never know how bad it is until i'm there, and I am prejudiced bastad- sorry.

  • agparrot #72 4 years ago

    I have to say that CoD4 certainly seems to bring out the worst in mainly american teens.

    Last night was a prime example - a group of 5 of us were playing some games of Domination, and because it is a 6-a-side affair if you aren't playing Ground War, we had a floater drop in on many of our games. Sometimes they were silent, we had a like-minded British player and a demonic Irish player who made us all look like amateurs on the scoreboard, and then a succession of American Teens, the first of whom, (Live Tag coolbeans14) immediately launched into a racist tirade about 'dumb n*****s', and after he asked where we were from (we told him we were French) he spent litereally two or three minutes saying 'You French are Gay', almost without pausing for breath. It was sort of funny that he couldn't tell that we were English, albeit with a breadth of regional accents amongst us, but one of my party ended up muting him, and I shall certainly encourage the others to file complaints.

    But herein is the problem - my Ire was raised to such a level that I retaliated with slurs on American eating habits, the American education system, and questioning coolbeans14's parentage and so on. Ordinarily, if it is just banter, I am fine with that, but his constant verbal assault of racist and homophobic jibes just caught me at the wrong moment, and I lowered myself to his level, which is most unlike me.

    I could of course come to an internet forum and suggest that 'everybody' files a complaint against that gamertag, but there really isn't any way of knowing that this guy didn't just beat me in the game and I'm trying to get some sort of petty revenge.

    It is all well and good to suggest muting everyone apart from friends, but some of us don't have a constant roster of friends to play with round-the-clock. I sort of need to hear my team-mates in some of the team games that require teamwork, so a blanket mute is counter-productive, in terms of actually playing the games, which is why I'm online... not to experience uneducated wastrels trying to break my eardrums.

    Perhaps it says more about the modern upbringing of American teenagers than it does about the Xbox Live service, though.

    edit: I have just looked up coolbeans14 gamercard again, under which his motto is 'the silent noob!!!', perhaps they *do* understand irony?
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 12:46

  • bad09 #73 4 years ago

    @Dermoth

    "Bad09 - you think racism's serious but homophobia's funny?"

    Come on that's hardly homophobia, but I get your point.

  • BobsUncle #74 4 years ago

    "That's like you coming to my house, robbing me, and I call the police. Are they going to tell me, 'Well, if that guy comes back to your house 10 times, we'll come out and do something about it'?"

    Well, not really like that is it.

  • Hixxy78 #75 4 years ago

    I agree if people are being out right racist then nail them to the wall, but I fear world we live in is little too PC.

    I've taken racist comments from Americans calling me all sorts from limey’s, English b*****d and all other half witted insults they can come up with and it's like water of ducks back I don't sit and cry over it. If comments are made towards whites that fine but someone from different ethnic background has comments made towards them all hell breaks loose its racism.

    People only ignore or turn there backs on this due to the fact that certain ethnic backgrounds use racism as shield for all sorts of things, police pull me over it cause I’m black not the fact you where doing 45mph in 30mpg zone Nooooo! could not be that has to be cause I’m black, You ever heard of the story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" hmmm striking similarities don't you think?

    Why the hell do parents buy there kids 18 cert games when there too young to play them, would you go out and buy them adult porn movie with 18 cert of course not then why do you think it’s ok when it comes to games they have the same certificate badges for a reason!
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 12:57

  • BobsUncle #76 4 years ago

    @ roamer

    1) Don't buy a year long subscription then.

    2) Don't play old shit games that no-one else is playing.

    2.1) You're paying for a matching service, some games have dedicated servers and others run on the hosts Xbox.

    3) Don't play GoW. Everyone knows it's full of yank pricks, and you already said it's boring on multiplayer.

    4) Warhawk is probably cheaper as it's old as fuck.

    So not only do you feel stupid. You are stupid.

  • L42yB #77 4 years ago

    This guy is full of it.

    You can limit communications over Xbox Live to "Freinds Only" so that you can avoiid these types of issues. That means his kid can play with him and he can avoid all of these comments that are offending him.

    You can also mute individuals and when you submit a strong complaint through the system about someone the matchmaking servers will not match you with that person ever again.

    Also, 10 people complaining about someone is fair. If someone is hurling racist abuse online it really shouldn't take too long for them to get banned, unless people simply don't complain about it.

    MS have a very good system in place for protecting people (IMO).

  • craft418 #78 4 years ago

    im not being funny big deal!! its only a game its a good job they do it online if im honest cause if people feel that strongly about it they go out and make there statements known publice they dont know who you are from adam or eve! so if i was you do what we all do and not take any notice if thats the way they enjoy the game... more for them there sad but even the victim was being a bit racist saying that hes getting abuse by a spotty kid in white underpants "thats pantsist" and if i owned a pair i would be right on the phone im just saying doctor phil hasnt got a clue to be honest his show sucks so what better to do then screen a show about a 40 year old that still plays xbox 360 that much that the abuse he gets off it keeps him awake at night!! for christ sake take some nightol!
    right i feel better for that catch you lot on call of duty soon no doubt and dont worry i let the skills do the talking!!

  • kangarootoo #79 4 years ago

    @Roamer

    The data protection act almost certainly protects you in this area. I would expect that MS have to provide a way for you to cancel your account and remove your details from their systems, they just might require you to speak to them rather than do it online. The CAB could maybe assist if you have trouble finding a solution.

  • kangarootoo #80 4 years ago

    "When he come out with 5 kills and I had 34, that kinda solved the whole issue"

    Hardly a generally applicable solution though. If the only way to beat racists is to defeat them in some wholly unrelated contest, I think the world is f*cked.

  • craft418 #81 4 years ago

    kanga...what ever? why would you copy and paste an answer you wrote back a page?? no wonder why you get abused for being a cotney!! hahahaha just playing

  • Fab4 #82 4 years ago

    @bad09, I know what Zones are supposed to be for. I have just never seen the effect of it in action. When I play CoD4 I am just as likely to playing against Underground, Family or Pro, than my own zone, Recreation. There is no zonal separation.

  • craft418 #83 4 years ago

    o and well said bobs uncle especially point number 3!!

  • kangarootoo #84 4 years ago

    @ElasticTangent

    "In the UK if someone walked up to you in the street and verbally racially abused you there is very little the police could or would do"

    If you had witnesses it could be followed up. Does the XBLive complaint system have a facility that allows you to list the gamertags of those present at the time of the offense? If the system was up to scratch it would capture this data for you whenever you hit the "report an incident" button, so if the incident was reported at the time it was made, you would have a decent record of which other players could coroborate the complaint.

    @barnard666

    "I agree that kids are offensive and stupid, but unfortunately that's to be expected"

    But expecting something is nowhere near the same thing as tolerating it or believing it can't change. The Bodybuilder described it well. Saying "its to be expected" is just apathy glued to a poor excuse for inaction.


    "English b*****d and all other half witted insults they can come up with and it's like water of ducks back I don't sit and cry over it"

    I think most people can tell the different between spirited banter (however un-pc it might be) that is accepted by all sides, and verbal attack. If someone says something and you respond by saying something like "please don't say that", they have two choices,
    1) "Sorry mate, I was just being cheeky and I got a bit carried away, didn't mean any offense"
    2) "insert continued verbal attack here from bigoted nutter"

    Obviously all these cases really come down to the details of each given incident. You can't dismiss ALL complaints just because someone once made a joke about yorkshire puddings in your presence and you didn't mind.

  • kangarootoo #85 4 years ago

    @craft418

    "why would you copy and paste an answer you wrote back a page"

    What? I have no idea what point you are making. If I've repeated myself its because someone posting after me repeated a comment already made to which the same response applied.

    Err, I've never been called cockney online either. I've been called worse (if being called cockney is indeed an insult at all) on here before though :)


    @BobsUncle

    /sigh, irony

  • Lukus #86 4 years ago

    "My husband has contacted Microsoft for many years, and I don't understand why the FBI is not all over this."


    What?

    /makes 'are you mental?' face

  • OldMan #87 4 years ago

    Several posters have argued that since this an organised, subscription-based service, MS is responsible for what's going on there.

    This principle is all fine, but the real question is how to enforce the behavioural standards without ruining the online service. This problem is much like in real life: the state is responsible for the safety of its citizens, but how does it ensure that safety without turning society into a totalitarian Big Brother prison? A real-time Internet forum, regardless how organised, requires a certain level of trust-based freedom, just like any other society. We all know that the price for this freedom is occasional misuse of it. However, like elsewhere in society, we accept a certain level of risk in order to enjoy some freedom.

    Of course I would like a Live service without any personal verbal abuse, but I would hardly like an online service where the risk of abuse had been removed to a minimum: monitoring of all communication, random exclusions based on one single complaint etc.

    These things are always about striking a reasonable balance, and I think MS has done a fairly good job at that point: following up on series of complaints, offering the Mute and Chat options so people can choose to avoid every risk if they so wish.

    Giving users the possibility of choosing the level of risk they want to get exposed to is a pretty good approach. It also means that users must take some responsibility for their own "safety".

  • DefdumBlindkid #88 4 years ago

    The internet and Xbox live are reflections of what people really think/would behave in a world without consequence.
    As a result true colours are shown.
    Some people are racist/sexist/just not very nice human beings.

    The complaints system is flawed- anyone with a grudge (got owned etc) can tell all his mates on his friends list to file a complaint about 'X' and 'X' gets unfairly banned. That is not right.

    edit- plus when someone clicks on 'avoid player' those two gametags should never ever be matched again. Surely that could be an easy fix?

    Play with friends, mute etc seem to be the only solutions unless 'monitors/mods' can somehow listen in and supervise games and take action when lines are crossed.

    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 14:53

  • w00t #89 4 years ago

    So an summary of how to stop this:

    Set your kids' profiles to Friends only communication.
    Report and mute rascists.
    Beat them at the game.

    Sorted.

  • Skooch #90 4 years ago

    Touche OldMan - well said.

  • Kryon #91 4 years ago

    This is a non issue. You don't like abuse on Live, TURN IT OFF!

    @Kanga

    "If you had witnesses it could be followed up. Does the XBLive complaint system have a facility that allows you to list the gamertags of those present at the time of the offense? If the system was up to scratch it would capture this data for you whenever you hit the "report an incident" button"

    I'm sorry man but come on! That's the silliest thing I've ever heard! What, so MS are gonna call me up and say, "Hello Mr Kryon, we notice that you were online on the 24th of September 2006 at 2:36am, can you please confirm that user 'SuperBadGeekoNerd' used the term "Bum felching nigga fucker" in an offensive tone?

  • chicknstu #92 4 years ago

    "Why are there people like Frank? Why is there so much trouble in this world?" -- Jeffrey Beaumon

  • Dermoth #93 4 years ago

    I'm pretty much repeating myself now, but -

    IMPORTANT QUESTION - I asked this earlier, I'll ask it again. Do Microsoft save voice chat data? If not, is it possible? I genuinely have no idea, but this is key to the discussion, because if it is possible, then they should be doing it, and if they're doing it, the whole argument about the complaints abuse dies on it's arse.

    And, again - Xbox Live is a paid subscription service. I've run online subscription services in the past, and the idea that the people who run the walled garden can throw their hands up and say "hey, it's not our problem, if you don't like it, just don't use the offending parts of the service that you're paying full cost for" is mindblowingly stupid. Apart from anything else, the headset is an INTEGRAL PART OF THE GAMEPLAY in many online games. So, to clarify, the argument many on this thread are putting forward isn't so much "if you don't enjoy being racially abused, don't use the headset", it's more "if you don't enjoy being racially abused, forget about playing 99% of all popular online FPS franchises".

    *sigh*

  • kangarootoo #94 4 years ago

    @Kryon

    "That's the silliest thing I've ever heard"

    Since when was that a reasonable guide to anything?

    "Hello Mr Kryon, we notice that you were online on the 24th of September 2006 at 2:36am"

    Thats a bad example and I strawman you on it. The concept of being able to uphold a complaint due to the support of witnesses is perfectly valid. The exact implementation if of course important, so if you present your own version of a shit implementation of course that will make the concept look bad. Does't make it right though.

    "This is a non issue. You don't like abuse on Live, TURN IT OFF! "

    Why are people still saying that after all the comments clearly describing why that is a non-response.

    I've bought a car, the cruise control doesn't work. Well don't use it then.

    I walked down a particular street and got mugged. Cops response, take a different route home.

    I took my (hyperthetical) kids to school, one of the other kids beat them up at break. Well tell them to stay indoors at breaktime.

    /sigh

    Its no real surprise that people who frequently act obnoxiously online because of the anonimity it affords them find it hard to "get it" during a discussion about people acting obnoxiously online because of the anonimity it affords them. its like arguing with a goldfish about the need for a cyclepath.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 15:30

  • kangarootoo #95 4 years ago

    "Do Microsoft save voice chat data? If not, is it possible?"

    Almost certainly not. The legal implications of doing so due to data protection law are huge. Its just not practical for the benefits it gives, which is a pity as it would solve some problems immediately (but probably cause others along the way).

  • symbiote #96 4 years ago

    I sincerely hope that XBL goes from strength to strength in the US and that it continues to keep all the gullable, arrogant, loud, illiterate, aggresive, xenophobic, racist, insular, overweight, yank wankers away from my lovely free PSN service :)

    That is all.

  • BoffBoff #97 4 years ago

    Ironically, I may sound like a racist for saying this but the ONLY people I have ever had problems with have been the ignorant little high-pitched American fuckers.

    Banter is fine, especially when you're all adults who understand what's being said in jest.

    But the number of times I've been called a homo-faggot and (strangely) a "fucking German faggot" (I'm Welsh you stupid Yank, not that you have any idea of any geographical region outside of your perfect fucking country) is unbelievable.

    I just laugh it off but the funniest thing to me is all these people are doing is reinforcing the stereotype of all Americans are twats.

  • OldMan #98 4 years ago

    @Dermoth

    The headset is a part of the service. True. But so is the ability to mute offenders. And the ability to choose voice chat instead of open communication. These options do not imply shelfing the headset. I agree that the idea that MS should just wash their hands is stupid, but then again I cannot see that being a widespread opinion. And it is certainly not what MS has done here. As I've said before, they're trying to strike a balance that needs to be struck. Some might always want stricter regulation, for example through recording all communication (heaven protect us...), and some will want more liberty. The debate is healthy. However, pretending that this is simply a matter of taking responsibility, and that solutions do not entail some serious dilemmas is to bury one's head in the sand.

  • Gurrah #99 4 years ago

    "I've had to stop my children from playing online, my 10-year-old daughter, my 13-year-old son, and even my 5-year-old son. He asks me, 'Daddy, why can't I play online with you? I want to play that,' and I say, 'No.' He goes, 'Why? Are they going to call me names?' I think that's sad for a 5-year-old to know that," said Terry.

    I wouldn't let kids of that age play online, period. I am just surprised he hasn't sued yet, I thought that's the normal thing to do in the US of A.

  • Kryon #100 4 years ago

    @Kanga

    This is real life, not a perfect world. In every walk of life you are going to meet people who offend you, whether it's online, in your local library, down the pub, etc. The fact is, in real life, I have no option to simply put someone I don't like on ignore, online, I do. It's an option/choice. If you payed for Live believing that there would only be lovely innocent people online talking about flowers and Songs of Praise then you're short sighted at best. MS do have a banning procedure in place for persistent offenders (and people do get banned, as someone mentioned earlier, if you check the Xbox forums it's full of people whining about their bans)

    Your idea of having 'witnesses' would hinder peoples enjoyment of Live imo, it's a gaming service not a jury service. I do not wish to be contacted and asked to side with someone who's feelings have been hurt by some petty online insult ffs!

    "I've bought a car, the cruise control doesn't work. Well don't use it then."

    That's a poor comparison. Cruise control is beneficial, so of course you may want to use it. Racist Live users are not beneficial so I'm quite happy to mute them out. The only people who empower them in the first place is those who listen/respond to them.

    I can't stand this attitude of "oh, I tripped over in a shopping centre so I'm now going to sue them because I wasn't looking where I was going" and what you're suggesting is no different "Oh, there's horrid people online, it's the service providers fault"....

    Edited by 2 at 11/01/08 @ 16:23

  • NthSimulachum #101 4 years ago

    I mute them, THEN report them.

    To be fair, I was slagged senseless (mainly using homophobic epithets) during a game of GoW last night, then kicked by BRITISH people. Okay, I'm not that great at GoW, but it was a player match, for pity's sake.

    It's not JUST the Americans. I quite enjoy playing with Dutch and German people, mainly because I can't understand a word they're saying, but also since they tend to be less squeaky.

  • NewbieZilla #102 4 years ago

    ""I've had to stop my children from playing online, my 10-year-old daughter, my 13-year-old son, and even my 5-year-old son. He asks me, 'Daddy, why can't I play online with you? I want to play that,' and I say, 'No.' He goes, 'Why? Are they going to call me names?' I think that's sad for a 5-year-old to know that," said Terry."

    Tis a terrible world where a 10 year old, a 13 year old and a 5 year old can't go online to play 18+ games.

    Wait, what?

  • cyber_nicco #103 4 years ago

    I haven't run into it yet, but I don't play online too often, because I don't have many people on my "friends list". It also probably has something to do with the games I've played online. I had one bad experience in that I was kicked out of a game demo the first time I tried it because, I guess, I didn't really know what I was doing...

  • paulf #104 4 years ago

    First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -
    because I was not a Socialist.

    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out -
    because I was not a Trade Unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -
    because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me - and there was no one left to speak for me.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 16:34

  • Denny #105 4 years ago

    I've never bothered about Online gaming until about 3 weeks ago when i was dragged into COD4 multiplayer. I've not left.
    Although 3 weeks isn't a long time, i've not heard any racial slurs.
    Stupid "smack-talk" by american kids, yep, once, and he was put in his place by his compatriates.
    Talk-a-holics with mic's so loud they could provide the sound for wembley stadium with just two headsets, yep quite a lot, they got muted.
    Banter, yep. funny. and you *can* tell when it's just a joke.
    Racism, or any other ism, no.
    Is is something to do with the time of day you play, i tend to be on late, any brits are generally merry by that point and most americans seemed to be normal guys that are on after work.
    Either way, when it does happen, they'll get reported now.

  • bad09 #106 4 years ago

    @ paulf

    Deep man, deep....

  • AHiFi #107 4 years ago

    Every single game of Halo 3 these days, there is always some person who either:

    a) Sings and then starts abusing everyone on his/her thrown of their own waste,

    b) Calls out me:
    "Hey AHiFee? You're gay..." (Some better pronunciation you stupid kid - you're too young to have heard what a hifi is?)

    "HiFiiiiive!" (Borat style - I mean, jeez, do you not think I would make it a little more obvious if I was a Borat fan?)

    "Man, these guys are *homosexuals*. Especially that HiFi dude." Being a typical Scotsman, I unrelentingly turn the tables and take the rip out of their intelligence and integrity. It actually works as it scrapes away at their insecurities!

    c) Racial abuse. Either from the English (constant references to Jock etc.) or from the Americans (just general UK rants). Some English guys started on me and I gave them a minute long tirade they won't soon forget! One of them said, "What have the Jocks invented that's of any importance?"

    ...the irony was incredible. Hello? One of our guys was a main contributor to what YOU ARE PLAYING THIS GAME ON!

    But I know not everyone is like that. Plenty of nice Americans and English who are quiet or just don't say much or are very vocal in the nicest possible way! Unfortunately, most people who keep their headset on - they like to talk trash.

    Don't get me started on the Dutch... ;p

  • kangarootoo #108 4 years ago

    @Kryon

    "If you payed for Live believing that there would only be lovely innocent people online talking about flowers and Songs of Praise then you're short sighted at best"

    Of course I didn't, but the idea that the internet is just full of bad people and nothing can be done even within the remit of a paid for service is just kind of saying "our product can't get any better, there is no point in tryingto improve it". Maybe you are fine with that attitude, I'm not and I can't afford to be.

    "That's a poor comparison. Cruise control is beneficial, so of course you may want to use it. Racist Live users are not beneficial so I'm quite happy to mute them out"

    You utterly miss the point. "Voice comms are beneficial, so you don't want to have to turn it off" is the better comparison. Overall, a stronger policy by MS will reduce the prevalence of malicious users on live, which in turn reduces the need of common garden users to have to start disabling perfectly good features to avoid getting griefed.

    There is a fundamental point at stake here. If you get griefed, the griefer is the source of the problem and that is where the solution should be applied. Castrating (overly emotive word, apologies) parts the service to avoids griefers that are otherwise allowed to run loose is like never leaving the house because the streets aren't safe.

    These things all need to be layered together effectively. Muting has its place and I'm not suggesting that to mute a user is tantermount to selling your soul. The problem I have is when posters suggest that the mute button should be the primary solution to this problem. It is NOT, it is a sticking plaster that you can use until the proper solution comes along. If nothing else is done (as some seem to suggest should be the plan) the sticking plaster becomes the only solution. This is not good design policy for service.

    "I can't stand this attitude of "oh, I tripped over in a shopping centre so I'm now going to sue them because I wasn't looking where I was going" and what you're suggesting is no different "Oh, there's horrid people online, it's the service providers fault"...."

    I did not suggest any such thing. Again you are contriving inappropriate examples to try and undermine the points I am making.

    Please read this, and please learn from it. I honestly don't enjoy being rude to you, I'd much rather just have a factual debate, but your obstinance makes it tough not to be sometimes ;)
    [link url=http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Strawman
    ]http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Strawman
    [/link]

    I am simply suggesting that the service provider can do more to protect the people that pay its wages.

  • craft418 #109 4 years ago

    will people stop talking about halo its so crap!! id rather play tron to be honest ...thats why i do get yourself a real simulation game like COD 4!!!

  • craft418 #110 4 years ago

    @kanga again!! do you really have this much time on your hands to write these encyclopedias your doing??

    or are you repeating yourself again................. as normal..... i scored 34 and he scored 5 so that settled it??

  • Kryon #111 4 years ago

    "There is a fundamental point at stake here. If you get griefed, the griefer is the source of the problem and that is where the solution should be applied. Castrating (overly emotive word, apologies) parts the service to avoids griefers that are otherwise allowed to run loose is like never leaving the house because the streets aren't safe. "

    That's the point though, isn't it. This is real life, there are dangers in everything you do whether it's getting abused on Live or being stabbed in the street. There are procedures in place to try and prevent both of these occurrences but (this being real life) they can never be 100% effective. You say there are more measures that could be taken to make Live a 'nicer place' but at what cost? Should people be screened before being issued with an account? Should people be pestered into being 'witnesses' over some stupid teenager slagging off someone else? Would an overly moderated service be better than what we have now? I certainly don't want that.

    The problem is with society, not with Live. You say that ignoring racist remarks online is just brushing over the problem but so is banning someone from Live. Just because a person has been banned doesn't mean they will never think a racist thought ever again, does it. Some people are racist, it's a fact of life, there is nothing you can do to change their perspective.

    By the way, it's a little silly to call 'straw man' when you're guilty of using that tactic yourself. Your 'cruise control' comparison is exactly that! Making a completely overly exaggerated comparison to bolster your own view point.

    "I've bought a car, the cruise control doesn't work."

    Live does work.

    "Well don't use it then"

    Muting people on live is not the same as not using the feature altogether, it's a choice for people who are possibly easily offended or just don't like the banter, etc.

    You're so straw man you're probably related to Worzel Gummidge

    "I honestly don't enjoy being rude to you, I'd much rather just have a factual debate, but your obstinance makes it tough not to be sometimes ;)"

    ZOMFG! Did you hear that people? Kanga wants to be rude to me! I need witnesses, QUICK!!!
    Edited by 2 at 11/01/08 @ 18:04

  • NewbieZilla #112 4 years ago

    haubitzer "He ought to use the option that puts outgoing and incoming voicechat to friends only."

    That seems kind of counter productive. That way, he only talks to people he knows, and can't find people who use Live to meet up with and play against again.

    bad09 "@ Fab4
    The zones are used to separate people, that's the whole point of the zones."

    Incorrect. That was the idea behind their creation, but it doesn't work out like that in practice. Get some more time played on Live and you'll see the pattern.

    Kiigan "You can avoid encountering them in games again too by submitting reviews."

    Not really, i've often submitted negative reviews and encountered the exact same people the next game, days or weeks later.

    Eighthours "Sadly, Live just reflects society - there are a lot of bloody idiots in society, too."

    Hit the nail on the head, there.

    craft418 "will people stop talking about halo its so crap!! id rather play tron to be honest ...thats why i do get yourself a real simulation game like COD 4!!!"

    Oh, looky here.... CoD 4 is a simulation game?

    craft418 "@kanga again!! do you really have this much time on your hands to write these encyclopedias your doing??"

    Do you really have nothing better to retort with, yet needing to respond feel obligated to post irrelevancies? Oh, I think I have answered my own question.

    Edit:

    Kryon "Muting people on live is not the same as not using the feature altogether, it's a choice for people who are possibly easily offended or just don't like the banter, etc. "

    That is honestly the best solution. This, in combination with reporting the person is all that can be done. Its true we can't change people - especially people who we don't have to interact with on a daily basis (like co-workers, for instance) so having the option to avoid them is the only logical system of dealing with them.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 18:08

  • TheJuriel #113 4 years ago

    Hahah. Oh no, people can be rude online.

    Someone needs to grow a thicker skin or play on mute.

  • smelly #114 4 years ago

    >I think something really needs to be done about the racism on Live.

    Just do what i do.. and turn off voice communication.

    Who cares wtf some geeky spotty little shit with no friends has to say while you're playing a game?

    Personally i dont see need of voice comms in games with strangers at all.. it's only really useful when playing with friends you know (so you can have a chat while shooting each other)

  • NewbieZilla #115 4 years ago

    "Personally i dont see need of voice comms in games with strangers at all.. it's only really useful when playing with friends you know (so you can have a chat while shooting each other) "

    Don't play team based multiplayer with strangers, then?

  • paulf #116 4 years ago

    @ wazzer
    'If a black dude (you can normally tell by the voice) racially abuses me and calls me a cracker, then I call them a nigger.. Simple as that.. Im not a racist, I just call them that because I know it pisses them off.. (try it, it's great fun) '

    do they have xboxes in the 1950's ?

    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 20:19

  • Kryon #117 4 years ago

    @paulf

    +1 well said.

  • Landmaster #118 4 years ago

    I was called "Silly White Man", "Honkey", "White Trash", And a black man called me his "Nigger".

    I was apauled*!

    (s) Spelling?

    I don't mind actually...
    Makes it more fun when they call me their Nigger :)

    x x x
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 21:30

  • tsioc #119 4 years ago

    Since when is monkey considered a racist word? ALL humans are equally related to monkeys.

    I've used the word monkey on many occassion as a replacement for offensive curse words. I've used phrases like 'Son of a Monkey!', 'Monkeys and Pancakes!' and sometimes just cry out 'holy monkey!'. I do this instead of using more common curse words that are known to offend people. Now you're telling me that people hear the word monkey and think it's some sort of jab at there ethnicity? That's just stupid and narrown minded. NEVER ONCE have I heard the word monkey used in a racist or hateful manner. Is this a european thing? If so, what race does monkey refer to?

    The threats... those are a different story, that's just hateful, offensive and sick. In those cases, can't you just choose to avoid that player in the future? If not, then make with the complaints. If someone is actually harassing and/or threatening you, REPORT THEM! But please don't think that people hate you everytime they use a word you don't like. If that's what you plan to do, then you need to provide a list of every word that offends you to every person you play with, BEFORE you play with them.

    PS, this seems like yet another good reason to allow players to prefer filter the ages of the players they're matched up with.

  • BIGSHAO #120 4 years ago

    Judging by some peoples reaction to this, if a child comes home crying about racist bullying, they should simply ignore the bullies?
    I have a friend who created a black man as his avatar for Skate. He was promptly attacked by a racist on LIVE with an oh so original repertoire of racial slurs. My friend is white and told the bully as such. The other players on LIVE proceeded to laugh at the bully.
    Fact of the matter is, people get real brave when they aren't face to face.

  • tsioc #121 4 years ago

    @Bigshao

    that reminds me of a time a few years back when I was playing a team game of Mechassault. 1 guy on my team started calling one of the guys on the opposing team a ni**er, which offended everysingle person in the game. At that point all 7 other players in the game surrounded the racist and proceeded to spawn kill him for the entire game. Needless to say he was pretty pissed, but we had a lot of fun teaching him a lesson. Oh, and filing 7 complaints against him. I don't know how well it worked, but it felt very good.

  • HornedGod #122 4 years ago

    For all those that think voice communication in Live games is a never stored anywhere and thus there is no record of what is being said by whom then I'd like to point you in the direction of the NSA.

    Voice communication in Live games is transmitted unencrypted. This is a Microsoft TCR requirement, due to the Patriot Act. What this means in reality is that everything you say can be picked up and analysed by the NSA (if it so desires). This is also true for all other VOIP.



  • mpruk #123 4 years ago

    On my Xbox Live enabled games it says "Game Experience May Change During Online Play." You're probably going to hear things that are less than appropriate. Some things are going to be offensive. I'd rather have it this way than have everything censored. Anyway, they can't reasonably monitor all voice communication. It would certainly not be acceptable to record all voice communication. If it violates the xbox live terms of service, then it can be reported. There isn't a much better system. Regular users being able to ban people would probably also be abused by the racists as well.

    @Kryon

    Well said.

    @paulf

    Was rationality and proportional response popular in the 1950s? Honestly, if someone is willing to use racial slurs, they should be able to receive them as well.

    @BIGSHAO

    Comes home from school? Although schools tend to be rather totalitarianist in their rules, that seems about right with a school of 10 million people, where students attend at their leisure, and all communication can be muted.
    Edited by 1 at 11/01/08 @ 23:44

  • zoidberg #124 4 years ago

    am I the only one that's reminded of Randal's "porch monkey" bit in Clerks 2?

  • ThitherBoot #125 4 years ago

    gamers who spend time abusing and using racial slurs are GEEKS who have know life and friends in the outside world and would rather spend morning and night playing games online. especially the ones who think they are absolutely amazing in the game. Anyway if you get abuse you can just immediately leave the game. its alright here in europe because nearly everyone plays decent and clean. Or if you want 100 % racism and abuse free online game get a PS3 where hardly anyone speaks or even have a headset.

  • Methos #126 4 years ago

    I do agree that the name calling and racial slurs are atrocious, but there are tools that can be used for this. When you create an account for your kids, when you put in the birthdates for your kids, you have to set it up with a "parent" account, and there you can control several things. First off, the parent needs to approve all friends before they go on the friends list. Second, block all xcommuncations except for their friends, and 3rd, don't put the audio on headset only so you will know what is going on.

    Everyone needs to listen to this podcast from Major Nelson here, http://fe eds.feedburner.com/~r/MajorNels... as he interviews the lead over the complaint system. Where the guy says that it take "10" commplaints, that is not true, as he specifically said "there is no magic number of complaints" that gets someone banned.

    Yes there is a major issue with rude people on xbox live, but i do feel that live has great tools to combat this, with the muting, feedback system, and complaint system, and for kids there are great parental controls that parents need to use, as i do with my kids. The issue with rude people is that people feel that they are anomoyous, and can get away with things like this, but here's the thing about live, it's owned by the community, we as live users, need to use the tools, file complaints, leave feedback, and these people will get weeded out, but if WE don't do anything about it, then the xbox team will not know it's going on.

  • LiamK #127 4 years ago

    "Since when is monkey considered a racist word? ALL humans are equally related to monkeys. "

    It's been considered a racist term for black people for as long as I can remember. You need to keep up to date with your racial slurs.

  • Loser #128 4 years ago

    @ wazzer

    You're a nugget - that is all.

  • napalm68 #129 4 years ago

    Wow, Dr Phil really pulled out all stops tackling that issue. "Dr. Phil called the anonymous abusers bullies."

    Man, he is a god in his field.

  • tsioc #130 4 years ago

    "It's been considered a racist term for black people for as long as I can remember. You need to keep up to date with your racial slurs."

    Perhaps you could post a list of any and every word that has ever been used in a racially derogatory manner, so that I may alter my vocabulary correctly. (yes, that's sarcasm)

    It's only a racial slur if it's said with that intention. And really, I have no respect for racists, so I don't abide by their vernacular. I still use words like marker, monkey and cracker in everyday usage, with their REAL meanings. If I ever were to use monkey as a slur, it'd be a slur against someone intelligence, not their skin color(remember, monkeys are covered with fur).

  • kangarootoo #131 4 years ago

    @craft418

    I type very quickly :)


    I'm going to knock this thread on the head now. I've made my points, it was never going to be that good a debate anyway.

  • Kryon #132 4 years ago

    @Kanga

    " I've made my points, it was never going to be that good a debate anyway."

    To be fair, I feel that statement is perhaps a little disrespectful to those who have taken the time to converse with you, many of your points have been rebuffed, (I'd like to add that I don't dislike you, you're comments are often spot on imo) but I cannot agree with your perspective on this subject and sorry but I think it's perhaps a little weak to enter a conversation with such gusto only to leave it when your opinion is being questioned with the comment "I made my point, crap debate anyway, I'm off" (OK, slight exaggeration but the sentiment seems accurate)

    IMO, you haven't made your point at all (not a valid one anyway) I'd like you to explain how you believe Live could be made better/less abuse, etc without dampening the service in any way? If you can do this, then all respect to you. If not, then I don't see how your 'point' holds any water tbh..

  • Strac #133 4 years ago

    tbh, it's not xbox live thgat's the problem, it's a general thing with internet anonymity.
    We should be able to punch the teeth out of idiots (whether it is live, forums or anything), just like in real life. that oughta solve most problems :p

  • Kryon #134 4 years ago

    @rdexter

    1. I never implied that having a conversation online is the same as conversing in real life, I do however believe that the chance of meeting/talking to people you find disagreeable is a risk in either situation, online or 'real life' (as I've stated).

    2. Your comment has no relevance to this thread, we are talking about Live, not about my personal online etiquette.

    3. If I'm spoken to with respect I generally return the favour. If I come across as rude at times it's more than likely that the person I'm speaking to has been purposely noxious to myself either at the time of my response or in the past (people like yourself).

    4. You're only taking this chance to get a dig in at me because you're a well known Sony fanboy and you dislike anyone who is not.
    Edited by 1 at 13/01/08 @ 02:11

  • Trikk #135 4 years ago

    PEOPLE ARE SAYING MEAN THINGS ABOUT ME ONLINE

    HERE LET ME SUE SOMEONE ABOUT IT

  • THEGREATMADMAN #136 4 years ago

    Being British, i'm pretty much spammed with racism as well quite a few times, with nerdy americans saying
    "When do you brush your teeth"
    "Tea and crumpets"
    Blah blah blah, all the unoriginal stuff. So shall i tell you how to combat this? i know its a bad method, and i should't encourage it but, insult them back!. Be racist back, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth

  • Thornhillboy #137 4 years ago

    I love how people assume that because they are not offended by something, then NO ONE should be offended by it.

  • arty #138 4 years ago

    So it's official then, XBL is for pubeless American racists.

  • THEGREATMADMAN #139 4 years ago

    @arty

    Not everyone, there are guys out there like me who just wanna go on and have a laugh, with some friendly competition. Though there are pubeless American racists too

  • smelly #140 4 years ago

    >Don't play team based multiplayer with strangers, then?

    Nope, cant see the point. Only with people i know. Otherwise the headset is turned off.

    I managed about oooh 10 mins of play when i first got live, playing against strangers with the headset on - before getting fucked off with it all.

    Too many imature children to make it fun.

    Now if there was a way of filtering out the kids, and just play with grown-ups - I guess it might be fun to have on..

  • Krun #141 4 years ago

    I always report all the racist and avoid anyone who I just don't like. The 10 reports I would think would happen fairly if the person is the kind that use the "n" word as punctuation. But of course that's little consolation if your on the end of that abuse.

    On a side note, i'd like to get the word Monkey back from the racist. I'm not black, so as a child when my mother referring to me as a little monkey, it meant nothing more than miscellaneous, cute and funny. When I think of it as a word to describe someone I don't make any connection with black people and it genuinely surprised me to learn it was used as a derogative term. It's a shame because I really liked it as my mother used to use it.

  • spekkeh #142 4 years ago

    I think they're somewhat right in blaming Microsoft. Given the size of the problem (some say one in three games, others one in ten, it's still a lot), it should be really easy for MS to do something about it. Just program a 'ghost spectator' mode for moderators, and then hire a couple of guys who eavesdrop all day long. You won't have to wait for ten complaints to be filed, as the immature gits will be caught red handed, and the whole possibility of some moderator listening in to the conversation oughta restrain people.

    Hmm, I would've been a very successful officer in East Germany.

  • kangarootoo #143 4 years ago

    @Kryon

    Ok, good call. And you've been polite so here I am to finish up. In truth, I guess I got bored because things were going in circle, which is no excuse really. I also got a little ticked off with craft418 continually telling me I was repeating myself. I figure if people make the same posts over and over, the same response from me probably applies. "Pay more bloody attention" might have been my response to him/her, if I hadn't just gotten bored and buggered off.

    My core point. The mute function is a stop gap, it is not a solution. Those suggesting that "all you need to do" to stop racism being a problem on Live is mute the offenders are imo missing something. I realise that muting people does not cripple the XBLive service, but neither does it allow a user to enjoy the service fully. If mute is used on rare occasions then fair enough, its a useful tool. But the impression I get from this thread is that racist/nationlist behaviour is rife (it may be "in the spirit of fun", but that only works if everyone agrees). If the service is being undermined by that sort of behaviour, MS should take steps to sort things. In answer to your question, I don't know what those steps are, but I don't have to know because I'm not on MS's payroll.

    I think that sums up where I'm coming from. If we don't agree then thats cool, at least I'm leaving the room in a slightly more adult fashion. Good job for calling me on it :)

  • Fab4 #144 4 years ago

    According to the UN, race (as in Negroid, Caucasian etc etc) is only one example of racism. What you probably know as Xenophobia, i.e. a prejudice against a specific nationality, is also covered. So calling someone from Scotland, a jock, is racist, according to the UN.

    P.S. Its also racist under British law.

    P.S. 2: http://ww w.reference.com/browse/wiki/Racism
    Edited by 2 at 14/01/08 @ 11:47

  • kangarootoo #145 4 years ago

    "Calling you jock isn't racist, bcause the scots aren't a race, they are a nation."

    Does that really matter, really?

    I mean what is important here, that we have a detailed semantic argument about the definition of racism or that we agree that acting like a xenophobic cock is a bad thing?

    "Hence calling somebody "n*gger" is a far more serious offense."

    Severity seems to me to be entirely subjective. You can't really apply logic to create some kind of sliding scale based purely on the words used, and if you could, what use would it actually be with no other context?

  • kangarootoo #146 4 years ago

    "Treating all such comments equally is fucking idiotic!"

    /sigh

    Exactly my point. Its all about context, or as I said earlier "entirely subjective". Did you even read my post or just skim it for long enough to take in that I was disagreeing with you and then go off guns firing?

    In some situations the use of the word nigger is not offensive (used between two parties, neither of whom means or takes offense in its use). If the word scot is used as an insult, and it causes offense in the contect of its use, then its an offensive word IN THAT CONTEXT because that is how insults and language as a whole work.

  • Kryon #147 4 years ago

    @Kanga

    Fair play & thanks for replying, I knew you weren't really an obnoxious git ;-)

  • Fab4 #148 4 years ago

    My father is Scottish and would be offended if you called him 'a jock'. Thats all you need to know. You dont get to decide what offends people and what doesnt.

  • subtlesnake #149 4 years ago

    "think they're somewhat right in blaming Microsoft. Given the size of the problem (some say one in three games, others one in ten, it's still a lot), it should be really easy for MS to do something about it. Just program a 'ghost spectator' mode for moderators, and then hire a couple of guys who eavesdrop all day long. You won't have to wait for ten complaints to be filed, as the immature gits will be caught red handed, and the whole possibility of some moderator listening in to the conversation oughta restrain people."

    I don't think the problem is that big. In the interview linked above, I recall the MS manager saying that for a given month only 0.02% of their user base was the subject of a complaint.

    And as is revealed in the interview, MS do hire people to game anonymously and report abuse, but clearly, given the size of Live's user base, such a strategy can only be of limited success.

  • kangarootoo #150 4 years ago

    @Kryon

    "I knew you weren't really an obnoxious git"

    Ha! More fool you :)

    @Arbiter

    Sorry, got my wires crossed a bit there and got all arsey. To be honest I think we are on the brink of agreeing, but in the name os suffocating the status quo I would pick on one minor point.

    "Some words are basically offensive, in and of themselves"

    It is that statement which I can't agree with. That simply isn't how language works. I understand where you are coming from, so its a pretty thin line I am walking insofar as disagreeing with you.

    A word by itself (listed in a dictionary for example) is just a word. Without context it can't generate anything other than a cold defined meaning (such as a dictionary definition). Until it is directed, put into a sentence, shouted out loud, written in a poem, whatever... it is nothing more than a collection of syllables. Words are all about communication, and until they are used to communicate SOMETHING they don't have the capacity to offend (until coomunication has taken place, who is there to offend).

    To keep on the N word example, to say that it is inherrently an offensive word does not account for situations where one person says it to another and neither means or takes offense. Maybe this really comes down to a semantic discussion on what exactly an "offensive word" is.

    Example. I say the word c*nt to a martian, who understands no earthly languages. Is he/she/it offended? I think we would agree not. If the martian understood what the word MEANT, and specifically therefore what meaning I was conveying when I applied the word to the martian as name, would it cause offense then? Probably so.


    "You dont get to decide what offends people and what doesnt."

    Truth.

  • kangarootoo #151 4 years ago

    @Arbiter

    "using racially charged epithets in an online environment (where ethninicity isn't apparent) is basically indicating that you don't care who you offend"

    That I agree with entirely btw. I don't want anyone thinking I am fine with people using the N word (or any other word LIKELY to cause offense) in general conversation. I am just using it as an example within a larger discussion about laguage as a whole. The normal rules of ettiquette and courtesy still apply when talking to others.

  • Rash' #152 4 years ago

    The crux of the matter is that Live users are conducting illegal acts online. These acts aren't acceptable in normal society so why then should they be any more acceptable on Live? Yes measures may be in place to avoid these imbeciles, but as many have pointed out this does nothing to combat the problem, which inturn allows these retards to believe their language is acceptable. If an acceptable system is in place to tackle this issue, why is this problem still prevailent a year on from when I heard of similair stories from my neighbour? Microsoft and it's users need to work together to eradicant this problem. The first step needs to be taken by Microsoft.
    Edited by 1 at 14/01/08 @ 21:33

  • mxstarks #153 4 years ago

    WOW. seriously. most of everyone that uses racial bullshit online is just trying to attack you personally cause all their bullshit cussing has lost it's effect. they run out of material to spat at you and turn to meaner shit - not making them racist. just dumb. i,m not trying to defend those who use slurs, but those i've known who have, were not racist - just dumb. get over yourself. i get called a white-boy and cracka and other bullshit snowman racist names and i dont get all huffy and puffy. oh and if you have a problem with peeps callin u racist names, (don't let them know ur black...) and a five yr old is way to young to be playin online. Thank you.
    (Dr. Phil touches children)