The Lag Effect: PSN and Xbox Live Analysed
How fair is online gaming? A Digital Foundry special report.
Whatever happened to the low-ping bastard? The scourge of the early days of online gaming, the LPB would dominate Quake deathmatches by simple virtue of the fact that their connection to the server was often orders of magnitude faster than anyone else's, resulting in complete and utter domination. It was easy to identify the LPB: a quick look at the roster of game players placed their "ping" times alongside their names, making it easy to spot those with obvious latency advantages.
Fast-forward to the present day and services like Xbox Live and the PlayStation Network dominate online gaming. Even though fast broadband is now the norm - eliminating the sub-par latencies associated with the days of dial-up online gaming - the lag hasn't completely gone away. Instead, game developers are using a wide variety of technology to hide latencies from the player, leading us to wonder: is online gaming fair? If you're playing at a disadvantage, to what extent do you actually know?
While it's undoubtedly true that Xbox Live and PSN have made the process of gaming over IP far more accessible, it's also true that the latest online technologies are far from transparent and it's rare that any game will actually let the player know how good the connection is until you start playing. And even then, with client-side prediction technology now the norm, you still may be blissfully unaware that you are operating with a sub-par latency at all. And even if you are presented with a "quality of connection" ranked at one to five bars, what does that actually mean any way?
Think about it this way: have you ever watched a Call of Duty Killcam replay and thought to yourself that the sequence of events playing back to you is somewhat at odds with the reality you personally experienced before you were gunned down like a stinking pig?
In this firefight, Camberley, UK faces off against Tel Aviv, Israel. The UK player enjoys a latency advantage so pronounced that although Tel Aviv returns fire, none of his shots register with the other player, or indeed on the Killcam replay. This indicates some of the difference between a 'five bar' connection and a 'three bar' connection in Modern Warfare 3.
How Online Gaming Works
There are three distinct ways in which online gaming operates. First of all, there's the traditional dedicated server set-up - as used by titles like Battlefield 3, MAG and Warhawk. Gameplay and crucial decisions are all driven from a central server to which all players are attached.
Next up there's the peer-to-peer or P2P system. This is rather more complicated to explain but essentially, game data is beamed from player to player, meaning there is a whole host of different latencies between each participant. However, there is one player who is the host - he is the most important part of the system as it is he who decides the "reality" of the game - who shot whom, essentially.
The host defines the reality of the game for everyone else. While the host still has to deal with varying levels of latency from each of the participating players, he has the advantage in that his own actions are processed locally, and so, one stage of lag is removed from the equation. How developers deal with host advantage can be controversial - but again, this process is invisible to the player. A number of racing titles, plus Uncharted 3, use P2P technology.
It's often assumed that the Call of Duty games operate using P2P technology, but our information suggests that it's actually based on a client/server set-up, with one player actively hosting the game he is participating in. How the advantage this player enjoys is regulated is unknown.
Finally there's client/server. This is similar to the dedicated server system, one player is actually serving as host for all the other players. While it's generally believed that Modern Warfare 3 and Halo are P2P titles, our information from a highly respected industry professional is that they are actually client/server - and Valve games such as Left4Dead and its sequel are, too.
The advantages of dedicated servers are two-fold. First of all, no single player has host advantage - everyone is treated equally and a player acting as host does not need to have his connection "nerfed" in order to level the playing field. Secondly, as the gameplay relies on the quality of host's connection in a P2P scenario, the masses of bandwidth available in dedicated server datacentres mean that the experience is often more uniform too.
Game developers prefer P2P or client/server in many cases because the lack of dedicated servers means that there's no grand investment in infrastructure required. In the case of the Uncharted games - where money most likely isn't really an object - Naughty Dog says that its own preference for P2P comes from the fact that they will never have to turn off dedicated servers when they become financially unviable - the entirety of the game package it has created should live on.
Latency: The Unknown Enemy
We wanted to take out some of the uncertainty from the quality of the Xbox Live and PSN experience. We wanted to find out how good, or bad, latencies were for some of the top games, and we were especially curious about how international gaming worked out. Realistically, the further data has to travel geographically, the more lag will manifest in-game, but it's also the case that the journey from the ISP to your console can introduce a lot of latency. Again, the player is left completely in the dark about this - in most cases, the best he will get on-screen is a five-bar representation of the quality of the connection. This can mean very different things for different games.
To get to the bottom of matters, we put together two sessions of gameplay with a range of different players across the UK and the world, each with a different internet connection, with each player capturing his own gameplay. After this, the key was in synchronising the streams. Ideally you'd like to line up the videos according to the in-game clock, but who knows - aside from the developers - if the clock is lagged or not?
However, we came up with some methodology to make measurements possible. The technique won't give us our preferred measurement of latency between players but it will give us the round-trip latency from say, player one to player two, and back to player one again. So as long as the captures are real-time (they are), the results are indisputably accurate at that moment in time.
Here's how it works:
- Step One: Amass players in the same online game, and have them record their experiences at 60FPS
- Step Two: Bring all captures together on the same PC
- Step Three: Line up the captures on one participant shooting (let's call him player one), with that same shot registering on the screens of the other players. We now have player one on the "right" time and the others with the clock at various skews.
- Step Four: When player two (or whoever) shoots, count the frames until player one sees the shot being fired. Multiply the frame count by 16.67ms for total latency.
Geographical location and the quality of internet service are paramount in testing, so here's a breakdown of the participants involved and the kind of connections they have.
- Camberley, UK: Possesses a "budget" 3.5mbps ADSL connection, with 800kbps upstream.
- Peacehaven, UK: An "up to 20mbps" ADSL connection with 1mbps upstream.
- Tel Aviv, Israel: 15mbps ADSL with 800kbps upstream.
- Moscow, Russia: 100mbps+ symmetrical connection with a 1gbps (!) connection direct to the ISP
- Brighton, UK: A special guest appearance for the Eurogamer 100mbps leased line - a connection so mighty even OnLive's US servers are perfectly playable, and a bottomless pit of performance that has yet to be tapped out.
How to use video captures to measure latency. This video demonstrates the difference in latencies between the UK and Israel and UK to UK. Lag measurements will appear very high as it's not just network traffic being measured - but the entire journey through the internet and the rendering pipeline. The measurements shouldn't be compared with traditional 'ping' metrics found predominantly in PC games.
What do the numbers mean? Why is lag so high?
Hold on to your potatoes. You're about to see some monster numbers - latencies so high, you'll scarcely believe that onling gaming is even playable. What we need to stress is that these numbers cannot be compared to conventional PC "ping" measurements, which encompass network traffic only.
Our measurements are based on what we observe passing through the entire game engine - and they are round-trip: there and back again. Regular readers will already know that games possess significant "input lag" - the time taken from a controller button being pressed, to action occurring onscreen. While there's been some discussion between the developers we've spoken to about this, we reckon that there's one set of equivalent lag in these round-trip measurements.
We've also averaged measurements. One thing to bear in mind is that game engines run to precise schedules of data processing when it comes to game logic and rendering. The nature of network traffic is that packets can be delayed, so updates to other players on-screen could be affected by this. We actually found that there can be a tremendous variance in results during our testing because of this.
Having video captures of gameplay is one thing - but how can you make sure they are synchronised? Naughty Dog told us that the in-game clock can be used to sync Uncharted 3 video streams, but there was no way to do it in Battlefield 3, meaning that only the relative latency methodology could be used here.
So, first up, Modern Warfare 3 on Xbox Live with Peacehaven, Tel Aviv, Camberley and Brighton participating. Later on we did a secondary test without Brighton involved, in order to double-check the findings we had. Here's how the "round-trip" there and back again technique works with MW3 and BF3 with the same players.
Let's look at the worst case scenario first. In theory, the roundtrip latency between Tel Aviv and Camberley should be worst - and we see an average of 25 frames or a substantial 416ms. Between the two UK ADSL players, we see a substantial drop to an average of 18 frames, around 266-300ms. Factoring in the almighty Brighton 100mbps leased line, we see latencies drop to around 14 frames (233ms) when compared with the other UK players, but still a hefty 300ms plus for Tel Aviv.
Remember, these are round-trip latencies. The best we can do is halve them to give an idea of actual player-to-player latency, perhaps weighting them a little according to the capability of the connection. In the case of MW3, which is client/server based, it suggests that Brighton is the server, but the extent of the host-nerfing can't really be ascertained.
If there's one thing that we learned from this experiment, it's that latencies between players can vary quite dramatically, sometimes by a margin of 50ms. We suspect that the combination of network traffic arriving late combined with the fact we're measuring two trips rather than one exaggerates this somewhat.
Battlefield 3 and Gran Turismo 5 Analysis
The advantage DICE's Battlefield 3 has is that no single player is the host. All players connect to a central server, designed for excellent infrastructure and enormous bandwidth. This should mean a more consistent experience for all players, with no individual participant having any kind of latency advantage (and certainly no advantage that developers would feel the need to nerf).
As these servers don't have restricted upstream bandwidth like ADSL connections, they can also accommodate many more players. However, there is a limited number of them, so private matches aren't allowed. Also, in our testing, the server list didn't work at all. During our testing of the PS3 version, we had to rely on matchmaking to choose the server, which almost certainly had a significant bearing on these numbers.
Round-trip latency between our UK participants and Tel Aviv was substantial - 30 to 32 frames in total, a painful 500-533ms, with traffic between Peacehaven and Camberley seemed to average at 20-22 - a 166ms advantage.
Battlefield 3 testing was a little frustrating - no private matches made life more difficult, and the server list wasn't working when we did our tests, meaning we had no idea whatsoever which dedicated server we were using, or how good our connection was. GT5 was a simple matter of setting up a room, joining it and flashing our brake lights at one another.
Next up, Gran Turismo 5. It's safe to say that the online racing experience has never felt particularly robust and the nature of the client-side prediction feels rather agricultural. You can test this by yourself simply by ramming into another car in any online race. The collision itself will be corrected a split-second later, and your car repositioned with a visible jump.
For our tests, Moscow created a room/lobby for racing which was populated by Tel Aviv, Peacehaven and Camberley. We went out to race together and decided that illumination of the brake lights on each vehicle was the best way to proceed. This is a passive event that should not be subject to any kind of server or client-side prediction.
The results were intriguing. Round-trip latencies appeared to be closely tied to the sum of player-to-player latencies we found by synchronising the captures to the clock. Both sets of measurements strongly suggested that GT5 uses a client/server set-up with one player running as the server, in this case Moscow. Assuming we're right about the clock sync, here's how relative latencies look. Remember, these are just singular measurements and haven't been averaged.
Most racing games use a P2P set-up for the lowest latency between players, but all the indications here point to Moscow acting as the server - even UK-to-UK lag is high, but Moscow remains fastest in all situations.
Game developers typically go for P2P in racing games in order to minimise latency between players, so it is somewhat surprising to see evidence that Polyphony Digital has gone for an altogether different approach. Without the developer itself confirming what's going on, it's very difficult to tell what impact this has on gameplay and whether the host has any kind of racing advantage. Consider a photo-finish - if Moscow has an eight or nine frame advantage, that's obviously bad news. However, if the gameplay is synced to the clock, player interactions with the server could obviously be time-stamped, ensuring a fair result.
Uncharted 3: P2P and Low Latencies
With Naughty Dog's Uncharted 3, the game's Cinema Mode replays offer up a whole host of valuable data and give us new insights into the way P2P online gaming works. The developer has confirmed to us that captures from multiple players can be synced to the clock - something we suspected was true when we first lined up some recordings. We noticed that PowerPlay bonus rounds kicked off at precisely the same time for all players with not a single of frame of latency between players, strongly suggesting that gameplay was synchronised around a master clock.
This makes analysis of latency between players much more specific than just the roundtrip "there and back again" techniques we have been able to use up until now - we can break down latency between players to a more precise level. In this first video presentation, we have extracted just a few seconds of gameplay between players and analysed the time it takes for actions taken by each player to arrive on the other players' screens.
While P2P gaming generally has a less than stellar reputation with online gamers, we actually found that the latencies between players in Uncharted 3 where amongst the lowest in all the games we tested.
The video demonstrates how P2P gaming favours players who are grouped together closely from a geographic perspective. Peacehaven and Camberley enjoy the fastest player to player communication we've seen at one point, but at the same time we see that Tel Aviv had a momentary dip in performance, resulting in a colossal 433ms lag.
The results also demonstrate just how inconsistent traffic over the internet is at any given point and also gives us a real appreciation of the challenges facing network coders for online games, particularly on fast action games. The fact that motion is so smooth at all bearing in mind the inconsistency in when data is actually delivered to each player speaks volumes.
The Uncharted 3 captures also offer up a few more tasty morsels to chew over. The basic principle of P2P internet gaming is that while comms are beamed between players, actual kill decisions are decided by the host, which in theory gives them an advantage when it comes to their own in-game battles (though some developers actively nerf the host in order to present what they consider is a more level playing field).
What we need to figure out host latency is some kind of kill event common to all players. Something like an exploding grenade. In the video above, Moscow lobs a grenade into our latency-testing orgy of gunfire, jumping and basic arsing about, but he is actually the third player to witness its detonation, and all the signs point to Camberley, as party leader who assembled the team to begin with, as host.
Since Uncharted 3 uses P2P, we wondered to what extent the host has an advantage. This video shows a grenade exploding on each screen, suggesting that party leader Camberley is more likely to be the host. Moscow is the third player to see the grenade detonate, despite having thrown it in the first place.
Conclusions: Is Online Gaming Fair?
If there's one thing we've learned in putting this feature together, it's that it's something of a miracle that online gaming works so well and looks so smooth, bearing in mind the ever-changing latencies we can measure at any given point. It's also clear that - by and large - the client-side prediction technologies employed in most games must be of exceptional sophistication in order to create an experience as seamless as we see it on-screen.
But the issue of transparency concerns us. There are very few clues given to the player that the session they're in under-performs. Matchmaking will do its best to put you into a fast, low-latency game - but if it can't find one, it'll most likely bung you into a game hosted far away where you are under an immense disadvantage compared to the other players, with no indication given to the player of just how much worse off they actually are. Client-side prediction papers over the cracks to a degree that the player can be blissfully unaware of just how poor their connection is - and not every game has a Killcam that allows you to compare what you saw with the "established version of events" as the host sees it, and nobody really knows what the difference between a three- or five-bar connection really is.
To put it in simple terms: the difference between three- and five-bar connections in MW3 is enough to see you gunned down without even getting a shot fired off: even though, from your perspective, you visibly returned fire.
So, whatever happened to the Low Ping Bastard? Well, the gulf we used to see between dial-up and ISDN/T1 connections in the old client/server dominated period is mostly gone - the days of being orders of magnitude faster than the competition are thankfully a thing of the past. By and large, cable and ADSL technologies are great levellers - but geographical location (or rather, the quality of infrastructure between players - not to mention the quality of their connection to their ISP) can have a substantial impact on the gameplay experience.
So, is online gaming fair, presenting a level playing field to all participant? The conclusion must be that it is a bit of a lottery unless you set up private matches with people you know you share a good connection with. There are few guarantees otherwise, but based on our experiments, if we don't have a five-bar connection, we probably wouldn't want to be playing at all. In general, PC gaming at least makes some effort to inform the player on the quality of the connection to other players with actual metrics - something that only exists in a limited form on console.
The question is whether we can actually expect anything to change. After all, the whole nature of the issue is that today's online experiences are visibly so seamless, only the most informed and observant will know that there's any kind of unfairness at all...
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Comments (105) Latest comment 5 months ago
Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!
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See for yourself. (Narration by Jeffrey Dahmer)
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I don't understand why this isn't the same in console-land too. No wonder so much lag-compensation is needed when you're pinging data all the way across the world and back.
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Don't know how many times i've been sure i fired first in previous COD games only to have the person i'm shooting turn around and kill me with 1 shot. Then the killcam shows me that i didn't even fire.
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The consequence of this is that you're the only guy in the match with transatlantic ping times, and tend to get destroyed. Or maybe I just suck at COD. Be nice to have the option of matchmaking based on region, though, even if it meant more waiting in lobbies.
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Online is never an equal field, as also need to consider home network, wirless interferences, distance of home to phone exchange, peak traffic, numbers of contentions ratio AND furthermore DEDICATED cheaters will always look for extra advantages to give them edge over normal gamers.
I may not always top the leader board, rosters but to beat an apparent pro one or two times is always so satisfying compared to beating a noob! Cheaters get their kicks from destroying everyone, all the times. Where the fun?
Such insecure people being online all the time only feeds their lack of esteem!
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Since I have the option to upgrade my Internet to 100mbps download I could use a clarification on this matter.
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You can actually find players who are using some sort of expoit that makes them around 2.5 times faster than everyone else. You can usually find them in FFA with a KDR ratio of 6+
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MW3 has taken things to new levels of bad, though. It's completely unrewarding. Even when you're doing well, you have to accept that the majority of the opponents you're killing are probably suffering from the effects of lag.
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I was on a game that was visibly laggy the other night. Constant frame skips, people teleporting all over the shop. Yet my connection bars were 5 and green, and so were most other players. I think that green bar thing is utter bullshit. Probably just your connection to the PSN/XBL or some other worthless metric.
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Sometimes I can shoot an enemy a load of times and they still live and other times a couple of bullets and they are dead. The same is true for me being shot.
At least that is my excuse...
Edit: We use Sky Broadband because of the unlimited usage.
My speeds tend to stay around these levels:
Ping: 34ms
Download: 4.5mbps
Upload: 0.60mbps
What is that like?
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All this console P2P is a fucking pile of shit, but since most of the gormless kiddie console sheep that play online with consoles don't know their arse from the elbow when it comes to such stuff, they are perfectly happy to put up with such a 3rd rate pile of shit, so long as they are sitting comfortably on a sofa in front of their 42' Tv's with a beer and pizza next to them.
Ignorance is bliss they say.
Twats, i say.
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@Bagpuss Hah, was tempted to say something similar, but was too worried about being tactful
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Richard you can't make any FAIR reasoned argument about any of the network technologies or experiences, unless you had cooperation from the backbone network providers and local service providers guaranteeing like for like Quality of service conditions(QoS) while testing, and then you'd need cooperation from Sony and Microsoft to give guaranteed QoS conditions for match making within their VPNs(PSN/Live) and even then you might require further cooperation from the game publisher if it uses dedicated servers.
All we can say, is that online play is still POT LUCK and SHIT by comparison to LAN or offline split screen or two player offline fighting games. Most Online wins are just for laughs, it doesn't mean anything when the conditions are always unbalanced in some way by the network and people have different skill levels.
Both consoles use standard technology described in RFCs, and are at the mercy of the telecoms companies and the number of network subscribers to each VPN, and the cheapness/reliability of the switching technology in the consumers house.
Tens of thousands of routers used for gaming in people's homes around the world could currently fry an egg, while they experience partial dielectric breakdown in some way from overheating, or have their power supply give erratic power making the device flaky.
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BF3 has a great thing where you always seem to die AFTER you get into cover as well.
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Haven't heard that for a while.
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Or maybe they're just having fun and relaxing.
Maybe you should just chill out a bit.
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0_o
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I don't understand your point. The article, as I read it, was about modelling what the average gamer faces. Trying to do so on a QoS basis isn't relevant, nor economically viable, may not even be technically feasible in Tel Aviv (certainly didn't seem to be in Saudi)
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The true problem in online gaming is that there are players that can't shoot for shit!
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I play sporadically online multiplayer. maybe a week every year. If I want multiplayer fun I put up a Lan party or some splitscreen action on consoles.
In fact this thing of the online only, without local multiplayer, that the modern games have is getting on my nerves.
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Online gaming is a lottery, it doesn't matter if it's p2p or dedicated, as a gamer who has consistantly played online for the last twenty odd years (actually pretty much since you have been able to do so) things have improved massively but nothing online these days beats our old school LAN parties!
All the big developers and especially those involved with CoD would have you believe that the system is fair and the game is based on your skill level and expertise, this is clearly bullshit of the highest order as this article proves.
It's time for these multi million pound companies to man up and admit the fact that if you play online at some point your gonna get raped continually as the system doesn't work!
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Call of Duty is nasty for lag, always has been. I don't play it anymore but when I did I was normally on 3 bars, maybe 4 now and then. Being on the wrong end of lag was just a regular part of CoD mp, and my internet speed is average.
And people wonder why people camp. Lag combined with quick kill times is why, that's why I camped and was generally a sneaky fucker, I wouldn't have stood a chance in a lot of games if I hadn't played that way.
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I don't play many games online now (my CS:S and UT days ended in 2008, although I will be back for CS:GO) but it's interesting to see the route that some developers take on consoles and the reasons for doing so. Of the games that I do play online (BFBC2, BF1943, BF3, KZ2/3, MAG, Resistance 2), I am grateful for the dedicated servers.
I also think a lot of people confuse P2P and client/server, usually referring to the latter as the former. Both use the two magic/annoying words in game "host migration".
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Edit: Thanks again for the negs you worthless shit eating cuntdogs.
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Sometimes on BF3 Xbox you can die before even seeing a guy round a corner, and though the game seems to mask the lag it's obvious that's what caused it.
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Anyone that's played 'real' online gaming knows that CoD (particularly on console) is a complete joke competitively, perfectly highlighted by the killcam.
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In Killzone (both 2 and 3) the player with the biggest lag has advantage as well. I have tested this myself, by limiting my Internet speed to nearly dial-up levels: suddenly I can kill easily, yet no one can seem to kill me. My k/d ratio went sky high. I, being an honest person that I am, don't use this regularly and have only done it once, to verify my theory. A have verified this both by slowing my Internet connection down, and by trying to play on very remote servers (by selecting Japan, for example - I'm in the USA).
All of this is why I stopped playing online, mostly.
The only game where I haven't noticed such a severe impact of lag so far is Battlefield (both Bad Company 2 and 3), but it might be because I rarely focus on killing the enemy and instead focus on support of other players (mostly as a medic, and sometimes as an engineer).
In KZ I usually play as a tactician, again rarely shooting for a kill - mostly to provide a covering fire, or use drones or mines to prevent enemy from capturing the spawn points.
The only game where the host has a HUGE advantage I'm awarew of is Rainbow Six: Vegas. Being a host limits your game in a significant way (it runs slower, the graphics are slightly downgraded and many sounds are replaced with a single sound sample), but the advantage of zero latency manifest in plenty of kills without much effort, and you avoiding being killed too often.
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This is why i bought Gears 3 as it has dedicated servers, which all competitive games should be doing.
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http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Screen%20Hacking
Not a Pro? Just out to chill out and have fun? Then 'Social'/'Unranked' should be the primary option. Why can't more of you be like me...
Uncompetative
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This is ridiculous.
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but for gaming its just pure rubbish , at least quite often.
i guess i know why now..or rather i got it confirmed lol.
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I was sometimes staying behind at work and playing on the T1 (even hosted a linux server....shhhhh don't tell my ex-ex-ex-ex-boss) and suddenly I'd lost a massive advantage at work and gained some at home.
Interesting to see that we're in the same situation these days, with low bandwidth replaced by geographical disparity for the cause of high latency. I guess the core idea of lag compensation code is to level the playing field, trimming the humps as well as filling the troughs. It's just sometimes those troughs can be over-filled!
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A great lot of GT5 online players seem to keep testing their latency all the time.
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On servers with special kill-cams you can often see that the enemy player actually has hit-confirming blood marks in his face, but he still has 100 HP. It's quite annoying, but at least it's slightly comforting to know that this doesn't happen because you're total rubbish. Or rather, sometimes.
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Nice service DF.
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Latest tweet from DICE about this issue: https://twitter.com/#!/zh1nt0/status/142918074398547969
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On PS3 version of BF3, obviously
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It's not difficult, however casual you are. If you don't know what milliseconds are you can do one, it's time everyone stopped pandering to these people who can't be fucked to learn the simplist of things. It's detrimental to the human race (I don't expect everything I don't know to be dumbed down to suit me, if I care I actually do 2 minutes of research)
It has nothing to do that though, it's obviously a measure to hide the fact that there's so much latency.
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But this article has made me think of the less noticeable lag, where there is a delay but it isnt quite as obvious as very high latency is.
This becomes especially important (in the interests of fairness) in twitch gameplay titles like FPS's.
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Eye-opening,really. I hadn't really noticed all this, but now that I'm aware of this, I probably will start seeing it.
Thank you RL for this informative article.
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Well colour me impressed
wingZero
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i would surely be surprised if your distinction would have an important impact on measurements. latency normally includes both trips, sending and receiving the package. as you need both there is absolutely no need for any distinctions.
further increasing the download rates also doesn't necessarily improve latency or else it would be all but gone today..
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Is there something wrong with sitting infront of my 42' Tv with a beer and a Pizza lol, sounds like heaven to me. I'd sooner play games like that than be a puterlobstah
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Also, I used to play the original COD heavily on PC. And the biggest single effect on performance isn't your ISP connection, it's who makes your graphics card and what year. I know this for a fact through experience, upgrade your graphics card and suddenly your performance increases. At least consoles have a level playing field in that regard.
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The article isn't just about network latency. As the article says there is a lot more to it than just how fast your internet connection is. Latency covers more than that, it's about input latence, processing latency etc, it all adds up.
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GFX cards make no difference to input latency, and processing latency is so incredibly minor that it really makes no difference either.
You said the biggest single effect comes from your graphics card which is completely untrue. It could help you get higher framerates but that has nothing to do with latency in online gaming.
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1)-it aint lag its just a very shit piss poor game
2)why does every single thread on this website have to mention COD!!!! why not battlefield,rainbow 6 vegas, even mag!
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Wow, just wow. Not only do I wish I could neg more than once, I wish I could somehow make you sterile so you won't infect the world with your idiot progeny.
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As Jimster71 mentioned the problem is the client-side hit detection model which allows users with bad or more distant connection get an advantage.
For example, on your screen you may be in cover when killed but on theirs you are still in the open as it takes longer for their client to get updated. There has been loads of info about this problem on websites such as reddit with videos.
I even proved it to myself by playing on an American server and I was unstoppable, getting kills I know I should have never have got. It also makes it clear to me why I always hear Americans on EU servers even after the patch that changed their default region.
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And I suggest you google that 'human eye' thing, because you are way off base. here's a good start.
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I quote from the article-
"What we need to stress is that these numbers cannot be compared to conventional PC "ping" measurements, which encompass network traffic only"
Graphics cards make a huge difference to the general response and fairness of a game. What I was stressing is consoles take that out of the equation.
As I said I use to play the original COD heavily on the PC. I was an average player on the server I played on, suddenly overnight I was one of the best players on the server. This could've been because overnight I had aquired some mystical skill in my sleep, or it could've been the fact that I installed the latest GFX card that very day.
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You could also get better if you bought a new mouse or a bigger monitor but it has nothing to do with lag, which is what this whole article is about. Honestly, comments like this are just proving Bagpuss' point that the reason most network gaming is so bad on the consoles is that the players don't know any better.
Let me put it another way - if you could somehow plug a more powerful graphics card into your Xbox, it would make absolutely zero difference to the problems of lag and lag compensation that is talked about above. It might make your controller feel more responsive if the FPS was increased (although CoD is already 60FPS, I doubt you'd feel much difference past that), but that has nothing to do with multiplayer gaming and you would get the same improvements in a single player game.
EDIT: If all you're trying to say is that consoles even the playing field because they all use the same hardware, then we can agree. But I don't see how that's related to the subject at hand.
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Think of the pp90M1 it fires at a rate of 1000 rounds a min.
That's 16.67 rounds a second
250ms (optimistic) latency is 4 rounds fired before your console knows it i.e. you're dead before anything happened.
As a seasoned cod veteran (the shame) 1 on 1 encounters in (especially mw3) have become a test of connection - your aim flies up when you are damaged - but this aim jog is purely based on who was shot first - and the receiving of that shot is based on connection speed.
This latency is what causes people to camp: in order to negate the lag you need to get the drop on people. So to all the haters out there - it's the most logical strategy.
I maintain that gears 3 is the fairest game on the market - all online shooters are fundamentally flawed and are not fair. Basically unless you're playing chess - its going to be shitsticks
It's worth remembering the best and worst thing about cod is that everybody else has it.
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OK, now I get what the debate is about. I think I'l leave it there, I already made my point anyway.
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Can you even do a lag comparison without forming a like for like baseline? You state the plans..but not what speeds they were actually getting at the time of test both up and down?
An up to 20mbps ADSL2+ connection doesn't mean that's what the tester was getting...average UK connection is 11.41 Mbps (NetIndex)
Is this more of a factor than location...or is location the bigger killer?? One should offset the other (dependent of in game/server leveling devices which may be in play)
So it really is a lottery...
Tbh...I just don't bother with MP on games much these days and when I do it's usually online co-op with a local friend....Lag and cheap deaths just ruin the fun of online MP...at least co-op of a campaign or extra missions offers a shared and relatively fun experience where lag is not so frustrating...
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That's how online gaming started out and that's how it should still be to this day.
Lag compensation is a joke. Honestly, you're going to give the guy with a mammoth ping the advantage over a low ping guy?
That's donkey backwards.
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Just because 12 fps with motion blur looks bad does not mean a damn thing when 24FPS is twice as many FPS and is the border that things start to look bearable but not great, the blur makes it look a bit better than bearable.
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I've be thinking about this topic, and believe the rendering frame-rate will effect latency in some games because the user's inputs from keyboard and mouse(the sample rate) is directly related to frame-rate; think triple buffering input latency below 180fps. So the faster the frame-rate should in turn will give rise to more network packets sent per second to update position/orientation and bullet positions (for collision detection).
The more packets sent, the more deterministic the switching latency(ie lag becomes stable under heavy load) making it easier for the user to compensate for the conditions.
It is also possible that the increased rate of sending data increases switching latency for the opponents, and increase datagram sorting(assuming UDP not TCP) work done by their computer, further hampering their ability to prioritise sending updates themselves of their own changes in position/orientation and bullet positions (for collision detection).
Naturally this can be easily fixed by under sampling all clients, by capping the updates to 60 or 120 per second based on games target frame-rate. But I bet very few PC games do this because of how fast hardware changes, and want their game to scale its performance.
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I've also now realised that upgrading to fibre on Virgin may not make a difference afterall. There should be a way on the console to setup your own server and host games.
I've been playing online for ever and all I can say is, I need to re-invest into a gaming PC (or laptop) and just use the PS3 for offline gaming and blu ray. just got a new TV so I can't take a chance with my anger management issues. my old 32" LCD can take the abuse, but not the new gear.
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I think you are spot on from personal experience. On the old COD it was capped at 60fps. But in settings you could unlock it. And in console commands you could set the FPS specifically and the old quake 3 engine had specific settings. I haven't been a PC gamer for a number of years but I suspect you can do the same now?
The regulars on the server we played had /set max_fps 125. Then if you bought a better card it would be /set max_fps 333, there was also a command for sending packets of information over the net but I can't remember what it was. Now try playing with 60 fps against a guy playing with 333 fps. Needless to say the guy with 60fps might shoot first and be the more skillful player, but he's still getting creamed by an average player with 333fps. It makes no difference what you can see with your eyes, it's how the computer processes the information and sends it over the net which you have put far more eloquently than I could.
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What about the host options in your GT5 scenario. Was it a 'fixed connection', what was the race quality set to (high is recommended and the default) ?
The PSN accounts for Moscow, Camberly etc are different - who is who?
Thanks for your time investigating this and putting the article together.
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They tested the 360 version of MW3...
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Player hosted games are more and more common. P2P tends to cause a lot of connection issues as all players need to be able to connect to all players. That increases the things that can go wrong by as many players are in the match. This very much soured my experience with PGR3 and Forza 3 online racing, which suffered from this a lot, and the lack of UPnP2 support in those games made that worse. I actually had to DMZ my 360, something which I've never done with my PS3.
The biggest giveaway for player hosts, is when you have games that talk about 'host migration', or more old-school, 'host disconnected'. The player with the best connection speeds generally get to be the host, and if he disconnects, the game has to seamlessly transfer host duties to another player, which early on games didn't do but has now become fairly mainstream. A game that didn't have it first and then got it later I think was for instance Fat Princess.
I've gotten the impression that the best games have both player and server hosted games. Player hosted games gives more flexibility and shelf-life, as well as potentially better performance for players who are closer to each other than they are to a free hosted server. Dedicated servers on the other hand can more easily provide a fair playingground and support more players at the same time, keeping lag low (as long as they are hosted well and available to the player in good geographical locations). As player connections get better though and the networking part more trivial, there's a good possibility that dedicated servers are on the out. I think overall that is probably a good thing, as then a publisher won't have to/ be able to kill the online in a game after a few years because they need the servers/bandwidth for something else.
Good to hear btw that GT5 has that internal clock thing going for it to keep races fair.
Oh, and Uncharted 3 has a LAN mode, which is incredibly rare for games. So there is an opportunaty to get a zero-base line performance level for that game by using a local network.
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Makes sense?
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To me the problem is distance between players and or server....
Easy solution - just allow people to play LOCAL ONLY.
I did that in black ops, it gave me the choice, and as such never had any lag and managed a 2.6 KD, and no I have an average connection and was rarely host if ever.
MW3 its 50:50 - it says I have 50 ping, but it over compensates - guys with 2 bars top of the leader board. Maybe we should all download stuff when playing LOL - its just wrong.
Let people choose to play local or not, and add 50 ms ping to the host - job done.
If people are playing on dial up or CHOOSE to play against people of another country or continent, then accept lag, dont expect everyone else to suffer.
You hear people in say Denmark or whereever complaining about local and too many people the same - well tough, why spoil any game for others in the UK ?
Battlefield - give a UK server and allow local only as an OPTION - problems solved in an instant...
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"Finally there's client/server. This is similar to the dedicated server system, one player is actually serving as host for all the other players."
How is 1 player hosting for the rest like dedicated server system? That sounds to me more like P2P. Furthermore many of the issues you attribute to P2P I have had a plenty in COD games.
Client / Server tech sounds like a fancy name for Peer to Peer when you don't want to actually admit that's the technology you are using. If there is no 3rd party server, the tech is P2P based, end of story.
Good read overall, but this client / server thing seems more like marketing than substance.
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It's closer to the dedicated server model because it works on the same principal of a single system managing all game updates to the people connecting to it, whereas P2P is about every system has to get a game state from every system. That's not a problem with a 2-player game:
P1 talks to P2
P2 talks to P1
but consider what that means for 3 players:
P1 talks to P2 and P3
P2 talks to P1 and P3
P3 talks to P1 and P2
and then imagine how that complexity grows for 4 players, 5, 6, 7, etc. And then consider what needs to happen if one or more players drops from the game....
So yes, client/server is much closer to dedicated than P2P when it comes to data transfer, although of course does not offer a near-parity solution that all players connecting to a dedicated server have.
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The ping is the speed in which it takes to fire a signal to the server which did your speed test.
The download speed is the important number for gaming. 4.5 meg is a fairly standard speed which you will find more than enough to enjoy on-line gaming.
Something else to consider along with differences in connection speeds is that you never really know if the person that dies easier than average has just been injured.
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