Tech Analysis: Forza 3 Demo Comments by Richard Leadbetter

COR BLIMEY!!

It's a hell of a lot faster though, in the time it's taken to arrive.

Cor blimey indeed that lokks very very nice indeed. Rock solid 60FPS the only lowering of it looks like when changing views.

The demo looks nice and plays really well. I am happy enough with it.

/Loves these articles. Let the haters hate.

Focus on the negatives of the game, and then say it looks great?

Odd article...

It does look very, very pretty, I'm hoping GT5 looks as good when its released.

"the days of ramming opponents with impunity and bouncing harmlessly off solid walls should be well behind us."

...Try telling that to 99% of online Forza 2 gamers! If only it were true, but sadly this feature is pretty much a waste of time. People bad enough to see the damage model in action get bored of it and turn it off, and those good enough to race with it, probably barely get a chance to see it in action by racing properly. Maybe I'm strange, but I'm only interested in watching races to perfect tune-up or watch a race I feel I did well. Watching a crash... as the article mentions, there are better games, specifically set up for crashing if that's what turns you on about racing.

@evilfoxhound - the game runs at 720p, 60fps with 2xAA in-game and 30 fps, 4xAA in replays, no?

That's pretty good, among the best of this generation (only Fight Night 4, Burnout Paradise, GT5:P and Wipeout HD can compete with those numbers, I reckon, maybe one-or-two more.....)

I spent a couple of hours Sunday comparing the demo against GT5P. The game looks more painterly, but less crisp than GT5P. I prefer the feel of the cars by a nose, but there really isn't much in it IMO. I do notice that although the cars look a little more detailed in GT5P there are some V-SYNC issues that detract from the feeling of racing in a pack. FZM3 doesn't have this sort of issue from what I could tell. I also prefer the AI, as in there is some. I'm sure I'll end up with both games, but I think FZM3 is more of a stopgap before the behemoth arrives - which hopefully won't disappoint.

"The danger principle is one of the core philosophies behind Burnout, and it is interesting to note that the Criterion game's over-the-top, enhanced crashes are still vastly more realistic graphically than anything seen in Forza 3."

See GRID.

"The angles shown of the cars at the beginning of the actual race employ the highest LOD (level of detail) models, whereas the replay shows significantly less detailed meshes for the vehicles. In all honesty, this is a bit of a mystery, maybe even a bug that will be corrected in the final build. "

I'm pretty sure its not a bug. The car shown at the start of the race uses the same high level model used in the car select menus. It is not used during the race or the replays though. The cars still look good to me though.

evilfoxhound: Perhaps they're waiting for the full tech analysis to talk about that.

Or perhaps it's just not particularly interesting from a technical standpoint, even though a lot of people are talking about it. Personally I noticed it (and the rather flat appearance of the cockpits) for about the first 15 seconds of playing the game but didn't give a hoot thereafter. It seems to be a game which looks better the more time you spend with it.

It was obvious that the screenies Turn 10 have often showed were not from replay, as they claimed....ahem.

However when the game the game is in motion, as DF says its looks good. I doubt anyone will be shouting: "Stupid alpha to coverage!" or "Goddam freekin' muted HDR Tone-mapping!" while they play.

This, on top of the GT5 preview, goes to show precisely one thing: both Team 10 and Polyphony should stay the hell away from damage 'simulation' until they implement a physics system capable of representing it. GT5 was bad enough, with cars pushing each around like constipated hippos, but now this? Cars flipping and barrel-rolling about like they're filled with helium! Horrible.

Please, T10 & PD, concentrate on the racing. Leave crashing to Burnout (and GRID, apparently).

Judge GT when its out as far as damage goes. Pd haven't shown thier hand fully yet...if you believe rumours...

/end troll..lol!!

As long as there is internal damage, then thats fine by me. At least there is a performance (or DNF) penalty for driving like a Hammond.

"So, what's the big deal with crash damage any way? The bottom line is that it's a hugely important part of games that purport to be racing simulators."

I really couldn't disagree with this more. You only see it when you screw up and it's not remotely realistic anyway. It's a fun addition but that's about all.

I don't think Forza 3 is a great looking game personally from the demo but it looks like being a fairly nice looking game. In-game the demo looks fine with a detailed environment plus the pre-race car pan around looks good as do the car models in the select screens. The dashboard/cockpit view is a bit underwhelming though with no glass visible in the windscreen; NfS SHIFT and PGR 4 were superior in that respect.

Turn 10 have obviously compromised in order to achieve a tear-free 60 fps - as they should have - so I couldn't describe it as near photo-realistic looking like Gran Turismo 5/Prologue. Lighting isn't especially convincing to me and there's lots of noticeable aliasing on the barriers and cars. It looks good enough in-game and looks better than Forza 2, thank goodness, but I doubt it'll be praised for its visuals. Still, the graphics are not the reason I'm buying the game anyway and I'm sure it'll excel in every other department.

/Is looking foward to playing it.

Shame that someone doesn't go ahead and make a licensing-free sim racer with full damage, but without the Burnout addins.

I believe that some of you are bashing the damage F3 and GT5 only in a graphical level, which is not the point (or shouldn't be at least). What Forza and GT should be doing is implementing a good mechanic damage model that forces you to drive well. In the Forza 3 demo there is a diagram showing color-coded damage to different parts of the car (wheels, transmission, engine, gearbox, suspension...). I drove the EVO into a nice crash and the car was useless for the rest of the race (barely making over 60mph and steering to the right on its own). Didn't seem 100% realistic, but good enough for making you care for not crashing at all. The rewind feature comes in handy :-)

F3 and GT5 seem to use basic rigid-body physics to make the cars ("adamantium chassis syndrome") and then adding parts with complex behaviour (suspension, brakes...) to model the handling. The result is a good simulation of normal movement of the car on the road, but we can't expect the car to break in half or crash realistically.

Maybe next generation will be able to do a full physics simulation, chassis stiffness included, and we can break cars in two, make them cabrio by crashing them sideways into a tree...

Fantastic article!

@Darren, "so I couldn't describe it as near photo-realistic looking like Gran Turismo 5/Prologue"

Now, I can't comment on GT5 as I haven't played it (due to it not being released yet ;)) but can you really say that Prologue is "near photo-realistic"? It's looks very gamey to me, with anything approaching photo-realism being only when watching a replay.

Dirt2 is a good example of calculated damage deformation that's not predetermined - and that's on real cars, not made up models like burnout. This makes me think the damage limitations in Forza/GT5 are probably more down to performance problems and the technical difficulty of making the damage look good. After all the Colin McRae / DiRT games have been doing damage for a long time and must have lots of experience at it.

GT5's latest damage model has only been shown behind closed doors, it appears the GC/TGS damage model was somewhat of a placeholder to demonstrate damage is actually being implemented.

Surprised there is no mention of being able to roll the car now. It really adds to immersion, particularly with the in car view.

@ rotmm

What a lot of people fail to mention for some reason, is that GT5P has some issues of its own - tearing, lack of AA, etc. I don't know why these things are only mentioned in regards to Forza.

Forza 2 already had 30fps replays.

prologue lacks aa?

I didn't mean it completely lacked AA, but they both have 2xAA. It's no better than Forza's.

I'm totally disinterested about GT5, this game looks waaaay better

I don't even have a fucking 360 though >:(

I'm still playing Forza2 like right now and i couldnt care less what the game will look like and im pretty sure gt5 will look MUCH better than F3 but if it doesnt it still have like 500 more cars?? so you cant even compare the 2 games in terms of content which to me a s a gamer is all that matters especially in a racing game. Never the less i will be most likely buying both games anyway, all i want and expect from Forza3 as a game is a better online system and more cars, tracks and customisation options plus a way to curb the glitchers of the class system so 1969 Chargers go 240mph in Aclass. Anyone who is actually playing the game now knows that is a serious problem which spoils the online ppart of the game and spoils the game for gamers who arnt very good at tuning (AKA. Noobs)

''Looks like crap compared to old GT5P on PS3.

Also ,DF bias shines through again imo. Such a let down from a hyped game as this would be like a 3 page story for PS3 saying the tiniest stupid details.''

LOL LMAO,i have GT5p and looks like crap next to Forza 3 who are you trying to kid? i bet you haven't even play the demo,let alone owning a xbox 360.

@rotmm - I've played GT5 Prologue and seen enough of GT5 in-game footage to see for myself that it looks more photo-realistic that Forza 3. It's not the modelling or textures really, it's more the lighting and, thus, colours. It looks more real in GT whereas Forza 3's lighting makes it looks a bit... well... cartoonish at times; basically it just looks a little 'fake' for want of a better word even in the replays. Just my opinion mind.

@ Flamebait

How old is the GT5:P 'demo' again?

Yeah, comparing an old work in progress to a demo of a finished game. *slow claps*

Zappa: "Also ,DF bias shines through again imo."

DF's bias also explains how they loved Uncharted 2's tech so much, doesn't it? Oh, wait; it's almost as if they're not biased at all, it's just fanboys getting annoyed when their chosen favourites aren't unreservedly praised and their competitors aren't roundly trounced, regardless of worth.

Nobody else wondering what the heck a "soft v-lock" is? Perhaps a pointless new term for some kind of v-sync? But v-sync is either on or off, and if it's off you sometimes get tearing, I don't know what a soft v-sync would be.

edit:google gives me nothing, it must be DF making stuff up to sound clever :P

not much into "car porn" myself, but this game looks pretty good. the cars bounce off each other like tonka trucks, but i guess adding in a physics model would've only been a detriment to getting those 60fps, which seems like that was their goal anyway.

neat!

Shame the games physics are diabolical.

The Forza 3 demo definately doesn't look as good as GT5P. If anyone has played either of them for any length of time it would be clear to them. Forza 3 is still a good looking game but the graphics aren't on the same level as GT5P. It has other features to make up for this, such as the ability to fully customise your car, if you're in to that sort of thing.

"The Forza 3 demo definately doesn't look as good as GT5P"

Correct, Forza 3 looks far far better. The detail in the environments is stunning, the textures are clear unlike the seriously blurred GT textures, and best of all there is no tearing which completely ruined GT5:p for me.

I also think Forza 3 looks stunning. And perhaps has the edge over GT5P.

Plan of action:

Sell Dirt 2 (it was good knock-about fun for a few days but the Forza 3 demo has blown it out of the water).

Buy Forza 3

wait ages...

Buy GT5

I think forza3 is equal in visuals to GT5(going of prologue/vids) and considering how long its took them compared to PD its a damn sight better. The only circuit in gt5p imo that looks better than the forza3 demo is the LONDON track, which imo has the best roadside detail in any racing game this gen but is the odd arguably better circuit worth the endless DELAYS. imo certainly not, you have to give MSOFT credit, announce a game at E309 and its released in 2009. amazing, sony on the other hand...........