Hackers may have cracked PS3

By Richard Leadbetter Published 19 August, 2010

Does "PSJailbreak" herald PS3 piracy?

Rumours are swirling this morning that the PlayStation 3's security has finally been breached and "backup" software now runs on the Sony platform.

A company of unknown origin has created what it calls the PSJailbreak - a combination of software and USB dongle that seemingly allows all makes and model of retail PlayStation 3 to copy and run any kind of game code, even with the latest firmware updates in place.

While it remains to be seen whether it is another in a long line of elaborate fakes, it's understood that multiple modchip resellers were sent anonymous packages from Hong Kong, and one of the recipients - Australia-based OzModChips - has posted two convincing-looking videos on YouTube showing the system in action.

Based on OzModChips' YouTube offerings, the dongle itself appears to be activated when the system is booted by holding down the power followed by the eject button. This might suggest that the USB dongle is an adapted form of debug equipment used by Sony itself in testing production and refurbished PS3s, and several consoles locked into "factory mode" have escaped into the wild before now.

If true, this is a crushing blow for Sony, especially as potential pirates won't even need to buy a Blu-ray burner to acquire copied games: the hack works by streaming game data either from the internal HDD or alternatively via USB flash drives or hard disks.

But is it the real deal? Hacker websites are saying it is, while the publicly available game-dumping tool from the "Jailbreak" site installs without the USB dongle on debug PS3s, and does indeed rip retail games, although they do not boot. There have been many fakes in the past - PSJailbreak looks disturbingly authentic.

We have contacted SCEE and await comment.

Picture of Richard.

About Richard Leadbetter

Rich has been a games journalist since the days of 16-bit and specialises in technical analysis. Commonly known around Eurogamer as the Blacksmith of the Future.

Read more articles from Richard by visiting the Richard Leadbetter archive page.

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Comments (220) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • bad09 #1 2 years ago

    Being able to dump whole PS3 games on the HDD would be cool, but no doubt focus on the piracy aspect will overshadow any positives from this.

    Anyway hats off to Sony PS3 held out for a while there!

  • the_dudefather #2 2 years ago

    I expect a firmware update that disables the USB ports coming very soon then ;)

  • azic #3 2 years ago

    Of Course it will cause piracy, and so will start the cat and mouse game of firmware vs Hackers. This device is designed to dump and play backup games.

    Well here is to a brave new world..

    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 13:21

  • Fernando #4 2 years ago

    some dun fucked up son

  • Dizzy #5 2 years ago

    USB ports to be removed in next version?

  • Der_tolle_Emil #6 2 years ago

    Already read about this earlier today. I'm quite interested if they actually managed to pull this off. I have to say that both HD consoles held up quite a while until they got hacked (if this turns out to be real) as I assume both have been heavily targeted by hackers from all around the world.

    I do wonder though if Sony will be able to fix this or if the "vulnerable" code is residing somewhere they either cannot touch or are afraid to touch as they might risk to completely brick the consoles.

    All in all though I hope this either does not work or will be fixed by Sony. The confidence by developers and publishers in (home) consoles due to much lower piracy rates compared to other platforms is a huge plus for us gamers and I really don't want to see that go.

  • sfp_noodle #7 2 years ago

    It must've taken real effort to crack the PS3 but it was always inevitable. Every console has been cracked in the past no matter how complex the security measures. If anything, Sony should follow MS lead and ban modded consoles from being played online. If they've cracked the console via USB, there's little Sony can do to prevent people from pirating.

    On a side note, although this type of hacking is wrong, the skill required means these guys would have a decent chance of becoming code breakers for some legit hi-tech firms. Although I don't know if "Managed to hack PS3" would be a plus or a negative on their CV :p

  • Geesh #8 2 years ago

    Well done Sony, your city wall held off the pirates well for a long time, but I guess this was inevitable.

  • Praetorianer #9 2 years ago

    That should boost PS3 sales figures. Good thing Sony is making money out of the hardware now :)

  • des #10 2 years ago

    So PS3 will finally join the world of real consoles...if this is real

  • TopKatt #11 2 years ago

    If this is true, is it really a "crushing blow" though?

  • mcwildcard #12 2 years ago

    Great, I look forward to downloading weekly firmware updates to combat it, cheating dickheads online and the second hand market being awash with banned PS3's once Sony start banning.

    Good news for dickheads, bad news for honest punters.
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 13:41

  • Fernando #13 2 years ago

    pics of new PS3 slim to combat piracy

    http://im g716.imageshack.us/img716/747/0...

  • chibber23 #14 2 years ago

    If genuine how long do you think it will be before the pirates code on the USB sticks currently being sold at $120 (apparently) gets pirated and put on the net for anyone with a USB sick and the will to crack their PS3 to use?

    BTW I'd like to add I think this development is bad for the PS3, the PS3 community and gaming as a whole and I hope Sony can block the crack with a simple firmware update or can boot those with a cracked console off the PSN.

  • ignatiusjreilly #15 2 years ago

    Surely someone who has bought some hardware has the right to do whatever they want with it?

    I made this argument when the PS3's security was first compromised by GeoHot. The general replies I got were that no, just because its my hardware doesn't mean I can do what I like with it. If this ever leads to being able to play PS2 games on the machine you might see a few people change their stance though ;)

  • WukWhiteWolf #16 2 years ago

    Sony knew this would come one day. If this is true PS3 console would sell like crazy, but PS3 game sales would be much lower.

  • chibber23 #17 2 years ago

    To be fare the only positive that can possibly come of this is if the hack team finds a way of putting PS2 compatibility into the non backwards compatible PS3s as surely that will force Sony's hand and they will then put backwards compatibility back ino the PS3

  • mingster #18 2 years ago

    Who thinks Sony released this hack to boost PS3 sales?
    /massive conspiracy theory.

  • M_of_the_sys #19 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKhan

    "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

  • mingster #20 2 years ago

    Chibber23 the codes already on the internet its called PSJailBreak Backup Manager .PKG File

  • JahB #21 2 years ago

    I made this argument when the PS3's security was first compromised by GeoHot. The general replies I got were that no, just because its my hardware doesn't mean I can do what I like with it

    because it's not a valid argument. yes, the hardware is yours and you can do whatever you want with it, just like my car in my garage. but if i go out and take my car over a dozen senior citizens, it becomes a totally different issue.

    same with a console: you can do whatever you want with the console itself, but if you then obtain game discs to rip to hard drive, the console is merely a means to an end. it may be yours, but in no way does it come with a permit to steal from software developers.

  • mrStones #22 2 years ago

    Hmm the ability to play games of removable media is a pretty sweet propasition, the lens in my launch model died a few weeks ago and the ebay replacement got damaged in post so this could be a way to breath life into consoles like mine for people who don't have a easy ebay fix. In that sense it's pretty cool BUT

    Piracy = less money for dev's, simple as that, Sure the EA's and Activisions of the world might barely notice but the smaller/indie dev's would certainly feel the pain. Imagine this came out before demon souls, i reckon it would have seriously affected the numbers imported/sold and then my favourite game of this generation would prob stand 0 chance of a sequal.

    pls don't let this be real, really hope sony is on the case

  • darkmorgado #23 2 years ago

    If this is true, I don't think that Sony *can* do much about it, particularly from a legal perspective. Apple lost their court case against the makers of iphone jailbreaking software, with the ruling stating that once you have bought the hardware, its yours to do what you want with it (so long as it's not illegal, obviously), so there is now legal precedent in favour of jailbreakers.

  • mingster #24 2 years ago

    TBH though there's absolutely no games on the PS3 i want to copy. Nor are there any coming out that i'm intersted in.
    I would like a nice version of homebrew XBMC on the PS3 though.

  • darkmorgado #25 2 years ago

    It would be amusing if someone manages to get a PS3 running Windows.

  • Skire #26 2 years ago

    1523 called, they want their pirates back

  • ouchio #27 2 years ago

    Very depressing news for PS3 game development. Hope it's false or can be stopped by firmware. these mouth breathers are leeches on us all.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 14:01

  • darkmorgado #28 2 years ago

    @ouchio

    As I said, theres legal precedent now saying companies are not ALLOWED to legally stop it. They can make it really, really difficult sure, but once its been broken they're not allowed to prevent it.

  • Zephro #29 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKhan

    To be fair you've never had such a right to do whatever you like with a piece of property you own. You can't add spikes and bullbars to your car, you can't turn bits of your property into bombs and you can't change the house you own without permission from the council.

    In fairness this is a matter of contract law between yourself and Sony rather than a criminal case. But nobody has ever had the right to do whatever they wish with their own property.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #30 2 years ago

    Surely someone who has bought some hardware has the right to do whatever they want with it?

    I'm pretty sick of this argument to be honest because it does not make sense. It's like saying "I own a gun and I have the right to do whatever I want with it". Well, that's simply not the case. Just because you bought it and it can shoot people that does not mean you have the right to do that just because you feel like it.

    As far as I know this product makes use of leaked/stolen code (SDK?) from Sony which is very questionable in itself even if it was for the purpose of homebrew. Every homebrewer will agree that this is not the way things should be done. I know nobody brought up homebrew yet but I just want to re-iterate that I think it's a stupid argument to say "I bought it, I can do whatever I want with it".

  • sfp_noodle #31 2 years ago

    @ FrontlineKhan

    The reason people are against hacking and piracy is NOT because of 'blind defence' of a corporation. It is morally wrong. Think about it. A console is piratted, this news then leaks out to the masses who join in. Conclusion? Higher prices, less games. People will go out of jobs due to low game sales. Why do you think PC game sales are so low? Or PSP game sales? Why does no-one want to develop for those platforms? If they do, they resort to extreme measures. For the PC, they ask you for a constant internet connection and limit the users options to play the game. Playing the game on a laptop on the go is made impossible.

    For the PSP, they made the PSPGo and in turn offered games at high prices on the PSN store. Neither of those ideas really benefitted Sony in any way. The real reason there are so few major game releases on the PSP platform is because of piracy. Over the last couple of years, only a handful of games, if that, have ever made it into the top 40 of any given week. In fact, Peace Walker is the only game I can remember entering that chart, and it didn't finish high, nor last long.

    Sure, you can hack your console, do what you want with it. It is yours as you say. But in doing so you miss the bigger picture. Thousands will be affected by it should you choose to pirate. It's only a 'benefit' in the short run.

  • darkmorgado #32 2 years ago

    @Zephro

    But actually, they do when it comes to firmware cracking. It's been firmly established in the courts now. Apple got well and truly trounced for banning cracked iphones.

  • Sunyavadin #33 2 years ago

    I personally don't see Sony's issue with piracy. They owe most of the original PS1's success to it. I don't know a single PS owner who didn't have at least a 70% pirate game collection. Everyone I knew bought it precisely BECAUSE you could get all the games you ever wanted off a guy on the market for a fiver each.

    THAT is how as a platform provider you achieve market dominance.

  • Zephro #34 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado
    Doubt it. It's a contract between apple and the consumer. It depends on the terms of the contract between them.

    For instance in the UK DS chipping has been legally banned now so there's the opposite precedence as well.

  • smithdown #35 2 years ago

    I dunno, I think the impact on game sales will be fairly small, certainly a smaller percentage than PC pirating. Fact is that there will be less people who own a console that will be aware of this, or willing/able to hack their system and obtain pirated games. PC gamers by definition have to have a pretty decent PC to run games on, and are therefore more likely to be adept at the whole hacking and pirating process. I'm not calling console owners stupid (I don't have a PC gaming rig either), but the whole point of gaming on consoles is that it is more straightforward and more appealing for people with less computer expertise.

  • ouchio #36 2 years ago

    If its true, and the hack is so simple then the PS3 could become the new PSP a development desert. Thats why I am against these hackers. I dont give a crap about multi billion dollar corporations, i just dont want my systems game development to dry up to a trickle.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #37 2 years ago

    I personally don't see Sony's issue with piracy. They owe most of the original PS1's success to it. I don't know a single PS owner who didn't have at least a 70% pirate game collection. Everyone I knew bought it precisely BECAUSE you could get all the games you ever wanted off a guy on the market for a fiver each.

    THAT is how as a platform provider you achieve market dominance.

    No, that is NOT the way you achieve market dominance. Also, since Sony (just as well as Microsoft) makes (or made) no profit at all selling consoles and their profits come from licensing fees their single worst enemy is, in fact, piracy. They lost money selling consoles for the sole purpose to get more game sales in the future. Fewer sales due to piracy and more sold consoles = financial disaster for Sony. Piracy does not help one bit, it ruins the industry. Both the game designers/publishers and the console makers.

  • darkmorgado #38 2 years ago

    @Zephro the DS thing is slightly different though, in that those carts were being explicitly created to allow piracy and they used stolen code in order to do it.
    From what I gather here, they are not using stolen authentication code but are circumventing the security to open up the platform, and the law in recent years has been firmly against maintaining closed platforms as stuff like that leads to monopolies. Off the top of my head I can think of half a dozen good reasons why someone would want to open up the PS3, and they are all legitimate.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 14:11

  • mingster #39 2 years ago

    Here's some more info...

    It seems the software uses bd_emu features to manage the backups. The HDD to use, should have a modified bd emu format, which sets all backups on first position, so the PS3 detects 'em all. Then you can choose the image to boot via the manager.

    To directly copy and boot a game, the software would need to decrypt all layers on the fly. Meaning it decrypts all executables somehow, else it won't run. Even on a debug unit.

    The hardware look like a copy of the original PS3 jigstick, used in SONY service centers to repair broken PlayStation3 SKU's. Someone internal leaked or sold a stick, so they had the chance to reverse and clone the hardware.

    The stick should boot before the normal firmware does, so it's hard to patch it. Maybe SONY could update the bootcode to prevent it, set it to a revoke list.

    By the way, in all videos they use debug PS3's to run the software. There is no video showing the actual process booting on a retail PS3 afaik.

  • JensonJet #40 2 years ago

    Having previously had a DVD drive break on a 360 I'm always concerned that this is the weak point in consoles. Now as a PS3 owner I wish I had the option to upload games to the hard disc in order to reduce the wear and tear on the blu-ray drive.

    If this new version of hacking is purely based on a USB stick and requires no additional chips or changes to the console, then I'm sure Sony will resolve this quickly. It has to.

  • jonbwfc #41 2 years ago

    The thing is with the 'you can do anything you like as long as it's not illegal' part is it actually would be illegal.

    Aside from the whole legality aspect, I'm perplexed by the logistic aspect of it. PS3 games are not, in general, small amounts of data. Quite a few need a dual-layer BR, meaning they're over 25GB of data. On most domestic broadband services you're not going to be able to download many of them a month before hitting your limits. Plus a 32GB memory stick is about the price of a PS3 game anyway. So you either buy a USB stick for each game, in which case you might as well just buy the game or you have a couple of USB sticks and every time you want to play a different game, you have to copy that 25GB+ of data off the hard drive on your PC onto the USB stick. And most USB sticks aren't quick. By the time you've done the copy, half the time you won't be arsed to play the game any more.

    Unless/until you can download the 'images' direct to the HDD on the PS3 (and then maybe copy them off to an external USB HDD) and unless you've got an 'unlimited' internet connection, it's going to be phenomenal pain in the arse to actually play the games in the end. In fact it's going to be less hassle to pay for them. The sheer size of PS3 games is almost a kind of built in copy protection.

  • Praetorianer #42 2 years ago

    @sfp_noodle

    I don't think so. What about PS2, GBA, DS, Wii, Xbox, Xbox360, all of which could be easily modded/used for playing pirated games? Did their sales figures suffer? The problem of the PS3 was its price tag in the beginning. The PSP suffered from a mixture of high prices and hardware design faults (short battery life, too big) and weak software palette. Bad games don't sell. Niche games don't sell (most of the time), even if they're very good. PSP had terrible marketing, PSPGo was a bad move overall. I'm not rooting for piracy, but people shouldn't blame everything on it. The main problem of the video games industry is elsewhere to seek.

  • ignatiusjreilly #43 2 years ago

    The Supreme Court ruling iPhone jailbreaking as legal is an American ruling, and has no bearing on laws elsewhere.

    It's NOT true that modifying your hardware is legal, or that companies are powerless to try and stop it:

    Almost all forms of modding of consoles are illegal in the US and Europe – although that has not prevented them becoming big business, with online companies promising "simple" and "solderless" installations. Earlier this week the Court of Appeal dismissed an appeal against the conviction of Christopher Gilham, who had been convicted in September 2008 of selling "modchips" – used to modify consoles. http://ww w.guardian.co.uk/technology/200...

  • Psi #44 2 years ago

    I hope the people who cracked the security don't get a return on their investment.
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 14:19

  • mingster #45 2 years ago

    @Sunyavadin .. i agree with you and i actually thinks its why Sony are in 3rd place this generation.
    (The hardware will fly off the shelves once people think they can copy the software)

  • Psi #46 2 years ago

    all in all a bad day for the ps3 really. good day for people who don't want too or can't afford to pay for all the games they play.
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 14:18

  • Psi #47 2 years ago

    Well I mostly use mine as a media extender and for BBC iPlayer.

    There's always a market for people not wanting to pay for something, and games are pretty much top of the pile for many people along with videos.

    Storage is cheap enough now not to be a deterrant, so I'd imagine this would cut into games sales quite a bit. Of course you'll have the collectors and not every downloaded game equals a real world purchase. But many people will cheat and steal the games.

    May even reduce the second hand sales market, so selling your games to purchase a new one will be less viable.

    Looks like the micro transaction method of payment and always online device is the future.

  • darkmorgado #48 2 years ago

    @ignatiusreilly

    It depends on HOW it circumvents the security though. If it is done by going "through" the security, via the use of stolen authentication software for example, then that would be illegal. If it is done by going "around" the security, via loopholes in the original code, or through clean reverse-engineering, then no laws have been broken in order to get the software to work.

    It all depends on how it works.

  • orangpelupa #49 2 years ago

    maybe this will benefit sony?

    PS3 hardware sales will get a boost. And just like Xbox 360 where piracy is rampant and game can be downloaded easily in reasonable size (6GB), Original games still selling well on xbox 360. So i think in PS3 original games also will be still OK.

    also that usb thing seems only play game you copy from <strong> Original</strong> game disc. Not from some ISO downloaded on [link url=http://www.]http://www.[/link]
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 14:20

  • DUFFKING #50 2 years ago

    I can't see blu ray game piracy taking off massively. The file sizes would be huge, surely?

    Though I guess yank connections are a bit faster than ours.

  • JahB #51 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKahn

    The problem there is, the device allows for piracy; you could even argue it was exclusively designed for that. Yes, there are valid applications to the device, but the reality of it is that it will be misused by the vast majority of buyers.

    You can argue this any way you want, but it's a device that 99% of its owners will use to steal. The remaining 1% don't justify the problems created by the rest.

  • Psi #52 2 years ago

    "just because something can be used illegally, doesn't mean it will be"

    Looking back at what has happened in the past, it's safe to say the primary use will be to play copied games. Nintendo DS copy carts etc. If you produce a device to circumvent security, it'll be used to do that.

  • darkmorgado #53 2 years ago

    The argument of piracy is very different to the argument of opening a closed platform. As Frontlinekhan says, pretty much anything can be used in both legal and illegal ways, and piracy is not the sole reason that someone would want a platform to be open. As long as its done legally, opening up a closed platform brings far more benefits than it does drawbacks.

  • darkmorgado #54 2 years ago

    @Psi

    that's the argument Apple used, and they failed when it was demonstrated just how many legitimate uses there were, and that by maintaining sole control over the platform they were effectively trying to maintain a monopoly.

  • Praetorianer #55 2 years ago

    psx-scene suffers:

    Quote

    Due to the fact that PSjailbreak works!

    We now have over 40,000 members posting, and viewing threads at ONCE!

    With over 100,000 users browsing the forums.

    I am in 911 mode, and moving the site to a new 12-core server,
    with 16gigs of RAM, and 1terabyte of monthly bandwidth.

    This hopefully we be enough.

    In the meantime, just keep checking, the 403 and 500 errors will go away soon!

    Sorry for the site problems, but that what happens when you have a real PS3 breakthough that works, not some stupid "fake" thing like Geohot, etc.


    :)

  • M_of_the_sys #56 2 years ago

    "more benefits than it does drawbacks"

    Weight the benefits against the drawbacks please?

  • Dreadaxe #57 2 years ago

    "The fact that a device may be used for a purpose which does not involve infringement of copyright does not mean that the sole intended purpose is not the unauthorised circumvention of a technical device."

    This sound familiar
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 14:30

  • Psi #58 2 years ago

    @ darkmorgado

    But if you honestly ask yourself, you know thats what people use them for.

    I'd love to be able to add options to my PS3, have 4 ondemand on the XMB navigation along with other channels. Customise my PS3 to be exactly what I want it to be.

    But this isn't a case of a minority spoiling it for the majority. Its the majority spoiling it for the minority.

  • ignatiusjreilly #59 2 years ago

    PlayStation's hackabilityand ease of using copied games was a huge factor in its world dominance, and a major part of bringing video games into the mainstream. And really, everyone in the industry has benefitted from that.

    That is not to say that Piracy Is A Good Thing, but if you can't see that mass availability of a previously expensive hobby to poor people and developing countries contributed significantly to the mainstream success of gaming today, you mighjt simply be in denial because you don't want to believe it.

  • darkmorgado #60 2 years ago

    Remember all those legitimate users of Linuz on PS3 that were p*ssed off because they could no longer use it for the legitimate reasons they bought it? Like the US military?

    Well, now they can use it. Scientists can link machines together and use the Cell to process calculations and sift data far more quickly than otherwise possible. Doctors will be able to perform research faster. Budding programmers wil be able to create games on the system without having to afford exorbitant dev kits, leading to a thriving indie scene. The military will... erm... be able to find more efficient ways of killing things (ok, bad example).

    Etc etc.

  • JahB #61 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKahn

    do you see how "open platform" completely contradicts the very existence of games consoles?

    PC's are open; hardware manufacturers make money of the PC's they sell, so they survive. Software makers then come in and try to make money from software.

    Consoles are pieces of hardware sold at a loss, that loss (and all other costs of the platform holder) being compensated by the money made through software sales. If you open the platform, you severely impact that revenue stream and the entire console model is no longer profitable.

  • M_of_the_sys #62 2 years ago

    "Scientists can link machines together and use the Cell to process calculations and sift data far more quickly than otherwise possible. Doctors will be able to perform research faster."

    This was never taken away from them. The update was optional. If you're soley using your PS3 for the above, then you have no reason to update.

  • Zephro #63 2 years ago

    Secondly, you say I can't add spikes to my car etc. Well yes ok I take your point, but the idea behind adding spikes to my car, or to turn part of my house into a bomb is to do something that is illegal with my car/house. ie maim or kill people.

    No it's just illegal to add spikes to your car or to modify the front of your house without permission. Modifying the front of your house, ie adding a balcony is for no illegal purpose. It's just not allowed.

    Also I can add things to my car with no intention of driving it anywhere or hitting anyone. But the act of adding a bull bar to a car is just an illegal act of itself without relation to the potential act it could cause.

    Anyhow there is no precedence in the UK that says you can do what you like with a piece of hardware you own. People should stop falling back on their "rights" which just don't exist.

  • rodpad #64 2 years ago

    jonbwfc - In regards to your comment about the size of PS3 games:

    The vast majority of PS3 games are simply padded to fit a single layer. Most games only use around 3-7GB of actual data. If anything this will require less bandwidth than current 360 piracy since 360 discs must be a perfect 1:1 copy, padding and all, thus resulting in a 7.5GB average download per game.

    I don't doubt this hack will only require the data files on the hard drive without the padded dummy files.
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 14:38

  • ignatiusjreilly #65 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    That isn't true, not in the UK at least. The "how" doesn't really come into it - the law triesd to address the "why" (although that is a notoriously difficult question to answer, hence the confusion).

    Section 296ZB of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (CDPA) makes it a criminal offence to sell or distribute "any device, product or component which is primarily designed, produce, or adapted for the purpose of enabling or facilitating the circumvention of effective technological measures" (this provision was introduced as part of the EU-wide anti-DRM laws introduced by the EU Copyright Directive of 2001).

    So, under English law the sale or distribution or such devices intended to circumvent "effective technological measures" is a criminal offence. Does this apply to modchips? Yes, is the answer. We know this thanks to recent case-law in the English courts.
    [link url=http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2010/01/are-modchips-illega l.html
    ]http://ww w.gamerlaw.co.uk/2010/01/are-mo...[/link]

  • White_Westie #66 2 years ago

    @Zephro

    You actually own the property you have purchased. It is the licence terms of using thier third party services which you are confusing things with. For example xbox live or playstation network - it would have to be a breach of their terms to access online with a "modified" console - the network is what they control.

    Sony cannot force a person and/or minor to be tied in within a "contract" (as much as they probably would want to) as these would be a basic infringement of human rights and illegal in the EU.

    I agree with you regarding the DS Chipping, however - it is the actual mod chip which is illegal in the uk. The consumer can do with the product what they wish, it is the modchip which is banned.

    Sony cannot dictate what the consumer does to a property that the consumer owns. The only agreement you have between you and Sony is that you have a warranty (which would be null and void if the end product was modified from its original state) - which is how Microsoft have managed to ban off xbox live, etc as it is a breach of their terms and conditions.

    Any Contract which would stand up in a court of law would have to be signed and dated, or digitally accepted with a verifcation on this. This means that if it was a contract, any person under the age of 18 would not be able to purchase a playstation as they would be classed as a minor and unable to commit to a contract. I am guessing you are confusing a contract with a terms of use statement.

    As for the actual goods, the owner can do what they want, otherwise sony could infringe damages claims on any consumer which had burned their ps3 in a blaze of fury after being beaten by a 7 year old for the 15th time....

    I think its an amazing technical feat to achieve - however I do agree that it is more for software pirates then has any actual other use. On this basis, I can see this following in the same terms as the DS copier and the actual usb dongle will be banned in the uk.

    Saying that, it only increases the price on the black market, and allows the organised gangs to reap a greater profit on such items.

    I think you are also confusing a criminal activity with an civiil crime. Both of which have completly different implications.

    And for the record I whole heartedly believe the product should be banned as it has been designed purely to circumvent the copyright protection on the device.

    I Hope it helps you clear the matter,

    Regards,
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 14:43

  • DoctorFouad #67 2 years ago

    @ sfp_noodle : I totally agree with you !

    like what the economist frederic bastiat have always said : the story of the broken window all over again ! people must think of the consequences of their acts not only on one category but for all categories, and not only think of short run consequences but for long run consequences.

    I am sure if someone working on a psp or pc game and than get fired from the software company because of low sales caused by piracy, than this guy will look differently at piracy.

    I am sure that one of the main reasons of Dreamcast failure is piracy, and one of the mai reasons why Nintendo gained a lot of money from Nintendo 64 is because of lack of piracy.

    If microsoft didnt solve the 360 piracy problem by banning modified consoled from internet, than I am pretty sure the xbox360 software sales would be on a big trouble...

  • ryandsimmons #68 2 years ago

    My god. Do all you guys saying "Well I have a hacked PSP / PSX / 360 / whatever but only use it for homebrew and NEVER for pirate games" honestly think that anyone believes you?

  • DoctorFouad #69 2 years ago

    I am pretty sure it is fake and very difficult to pirate ps3, the only way to do it is to pirate the ps3 hard disk system, to do so you need internal information from high level sony engineers who already signed a lot of NDAs and wont risk their well paid jobs...

  • JahB #70 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKahn

    Well it is, as you were willingly and knowingly buying into a closed platform. I don't see why you would buy a console if you were after an open platform, that makes no sense at all.

    As for the business model, tbh I don't think it's shitty. It allows me to play high-end games on hardware that costs much less than a PC playing the same games (disagree - show me a 199$ PC that runs the same games), without any extra fiddling whatsoever. It's extremely convenient, affordable, and only comes with the downside that it's hard to pirate games.

  • StooMonster #71 2 years ago

    JahB: Consoles are pieces of hardware sold at a loss

    Nintendo don't take that approach, they make money on their consoles from launch ... they never sell consoles at a loss.

  • PearOfAnguish #72 2 years ago

    Might be time to buy a PS3, then.

  • StooMonster #73 2 years ago

    FrontlineKhan: I shouldn't be able to do what I like with my console

    You cannot do whatever you like with your console. For example, you cannot reverse engineer it and then manufacture a copy of it simply because you bought one hardware unit.

  • jonbwfc #74 2 years ago

    @rodpad - cheers!

    IIRC quite a lot of the 'padding' is actually duplicated copies of game data to account for the poor seek time of the PS3's BR drive isn't it? Obviously not an issue with USB storage.

  • darkmorgado #75 2 years ago

    Consoles are pieces of hardware sold at a loss, that loss (and all other costs of the platform holder) being compensated by the money made through software sales.

    Just because they have a crap business model is not an excuse to try and maintain a closed platform.

    I am sure that one of the main reasons of Dreamcast failure is piracy

    No, it was a variety of factors including Sega's depleted resources following the failure of the Saturn, the muscle of the Playstation Brand and the PS2 coming to market quite soon into the DCs lifecycle, and the short time between announcement and release of the DC, leading to poor 3rd party support.

    Nintendo gained a lot of money from Nintendo 64 is because of lack of piracy.

    No, it was because Nintendo sell their machines at a profit, not a loss and it was bundled with one of the greatest games ever made which practically invented the modern 3d platformer. They don't subscribe to said stupid business model of selling hardware at a loss hoping to make a profit on the software (build it and they will come!).
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 00:54

  • Vistrix #76 2 years ago

    Hardware sales are going to go through the roof... Perhaps Sony knew of this and announced two new PS3 models ready for people to buy?

  • darkmorgado #77 2 years ago

    Well it is, as you were willingly and knowingly buying into a closed platform. I don't see why you would buy a console if you were after an open platform, that makes no sense at all.

    But the PS3 wasn't initially a closed platform. They made it closed when they removed Linux support. There is an argument that basically this just restores the functionality that the PS3 originally had, and which people paid for in good faith that it would not be removed.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 15:00

  • darkmorgado #78 2 years ago

    Hardware sales are going to go through the roof... Perhaps Sony knew of this and announced two new PS3 models ready for people to buy?

    Nah, it was basically penis envy because they could no longer argue that they had a bigger HDD than the Xbox.

    EDIT: A neg? They bloody admitted it at the Gamescom conference!
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 15:02

  • alcides #79 2 years ago

    NO! NO NO NO!

    A plateform has a great user experience as far as there ISN'T piracy!! Goodby trophies, leaderboards, online play.
    And let's face it, who ever finishes their pirated games?
    I really think the PS3 was great in part because of its fending off piracy.

  • darkmorgado #80 2 years ago

    Basically if they could do this via software they would be ok in the US with the recent ruling, but it looks like it requires hardware, which is still out.

    Not necessarily, as the "hardware" is basically just a memory stick used to introduce the software. If they can get around the need to plug in a usb, such as finding a way to make it run as an executable upon download (so you can then download it through the PS3 browser), they're fine. It would be if the hardware used is in itself altering the processes of the machine (such as the DS carts) that it would be a problem. It seems as though the dongle in question here is literally just a standard dongle. Software can't get loaded onto a system by willpower alone.

  • rodpad #81 2 years ago

    jonbwfc - That is correct. The same goes for all disc based consoles.

  • darkmorgado #82 2 years ago

    Goodby trophies, leaderboards, online play.

    Not really. Trophies require online syncing anyway in order to work (as demonstrated by the ApocalyPS3 incident). All they would need to do would be to introduce a form of server-side protection and some sort of security algorithm onto legitimate game discs, rather than relying on the console itself to act as the gatekeeper.

  • Dylbot #83 2 years ago

    This is all very well and good, but can you imagine many people having the patience to download the games? As others have said, the sheer size of the damn things is enough of a deterrent from piracy. Unless you live in South Korea, in which case, sorry Sony.

  • darkmorgado #84 2 years ago

    @dylbot

    As already said, the file sizes are only that large due to duplicated data to get around disc seek times - not a problem on USB as they can cut all that crap out.

  • rojjer #85 2 years ago

    they did an excellent job of thwarting piracy on the PSP once the hack was out. Oh no, wait...

  • SL33PY #86 2 years ago

    Time for sony to brick PS3's that can't be updated with the next firmware update

  • SL33PY #87 2 years ago

    @der_tolle_emil: I have to say that both HD consoles held up quite a while until they got hacked (

    How do you mean, XBox was hacked virtually at day 1 of release?

  • Dylbot #88 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    Ah, missed that.

    So, wait a minute. Blu-ray offers significantly higher storage than DVD, but that extra space is mostly being used to counter the reduced load times. Which makes the whole bloody thing obsolete, barring FFXIII's pretty 1080p cutscenes. Seems a little ridiculous.

  • darkmorgado #89 2 years ago

    So, wait a minute. Blu-ray offers significantly higher storage than DVD, but that extra space is mostly being used to counter the reduced load times. Which makes the whole bloody thing obsolete, barring FFXIII's pretty 1080p cutscenes. Seems a little ridiculous

    Basically, yeah. Most of the time when a dev is ranting saying they have maxed out the disc space on the Blu-Ray, 9 times out of 10 they have actually just duplicated the data all over the disc to try and speed up loading times, or have been lazy and not bothered using any compression. Anyone can fill a space, it's how you use the space that counts (no dodgy sexual pun intended).

  • coolbritannia #90 2 years ago

    As I'd never take the PS3 online, shamefully this is quite tempting....

  • callum9999 #91 2 years ago

    FrontlineKahn: The reason why its wrong to hack it even though you have paid money for it, is because (presumably?) you own the hardware but Sony own the software and provide you with a license to use it. It's therefore their software and (again presumably) the T&Cs of use state you can't alter it.

  • Der_tolle_Emil #92 2 years ago


    @der_tolle_emil: I have to say that both HD consoles held up quite a while until they got hacked (
    How do you mean, XBox was hacked virtually at day 1 of release?

    With HD consoles I meant the 360 and the PS3, seeing as the Wii has been completely hacked in pretty much every way possible. Was the 360 hacked the 1st day as well? I thought it took quite some time, and technically speaking the 360 itself still isn't hacked - the disc drive's firmware is but playing images from the hard drive or doing anything to "customize" the OS still is not possible as far as I know. That is all besides the point though :)

  • Gromit #93 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKhan

    Just stop clutching at straws man! This (if true) will be exploited by THIEVES predominantly. Don't try to dress it up as anything else! What can you do with your pc that you can't do on your pc in that regard anyway?

  • darkmorgado #94 2 years ago

    @callum99

    T&Cs aren't legally binding in themselves though; (extreme) example - you agree to T&Cs that state in order to use a product you must kill a human being. You don't kill a human being but continue to use the product, so company X takes you to court for breaching the T&Cs. The case is thrown out as company X has no legal authority to tell you to kill someone.

    In other words, T&Cs can say pretty much bloody anything, but if there is legal precedent (or legislation) that runs contrary to them, they are worthless and cannot be enforced.

  • darkmorgado #95 2 years ago

    @Gromit

    Quite a bit, seeing as the architecture of the PC is very different from the architecture of the Cell, which is why it is so widely used for research purposes and processing large amounts of mathematical data - it can do it far more efficiently and faster than regular PCs of the same price.

  • Dolly #96 2 years ago

    In order to block this, expect a firmware update in the next few days that blocks the PS3's ability to play video games.

  • chessboxer #97 2 years ago

    Joystiq have updated their article saying that this was done on a debug PS3, and the functionality in the video is already part of debug firmware.

  • azix2 #98 2 years ago

    Piracy hasn't killed the 360 yet

  • dave.k #99 2 years ago

    Good! While I prefer to buy and keep my games in a collection, Sony pissed me off with their removal of the Other OS feature. I hate being forced to remove a feature that I was using. I support any hack that will open up the hardware for programmers. I have little sympathy for Sony.

  • Skurmedel #100 2 years ago

    Judging by the ratings on comments here it's apparently a thought crime to be in favour of hacking your console in any way.

  • webcider #101 2 years ago

    FrontlineKhan :

    Just wanted to say fight the good fight :)

    im impressed so many people are so high on their asses in this topic..
    Then again that is what happens if you give people some technology they don't know how to use.

  • shikz #102 2 years ago

    still not worth buying a Ps3 :(

  • Chufty #103 2 years ago

    Reading this comments thread has unearthed a sickening amount of apathy or even support for this device. This is BAD news, and anyone thinking otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

    I thought the EG crowd was better than this.

  • messiahtj #104 2 years ago

    "We have contacted SCEE and await comment."

    Assholes!!! If that chip is real you just told Sony about the existence of this modchip!!! And they will patch it!!!1!!11!!!! Damn you, dammmn yooouuuuuu!!!!!

    I kid =D

  • DoctorFraud #105 2 years ago

    Yay! Free games for my bluray player!

    Shame they arent very good....

  • darkmorgado #106 2 years ago

    This is BAD news, and anyone thinking otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

    Oh, get off your high horse. Anyone who thinks closed platforms are a good thing obviously haven't got a clue.

    /hugs open source

  • bad09 #107 2 years ago

    "Reading this comments thread has unearthed a sickening amount of apathy or even support for this device. This is BAD news, and anyone thinking otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

    I thought the EG crowd was better than this. "

    Or maybe you, like the games industry, be ashamed of generalizing about what people want to do with their hardware. Yes this thing quite obviously opens up up piracy issues (that EVERY console has) but not EVERYONE is gonna do that. Personally if this thing allows PS2 emulation and HDD installs of PS1/2/3 I'm all over it.

    I buy my games so why on Earth should I be ashamed of opening the potential of my PS3 just like I did with my PSP?
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 18:20

  • SG79 #108 2 years ago

    This may not be a hack, more like someone leaked a key or stole it:

    [link url=http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1463086&p ostcount=435
    ]http://fo rum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p...[/link]

    In other words, it can be fixed via a firmware update.

  • orangpelupa #109 2 years ago

    ^^ nowadays many hacks can bi fixed with FW updates. Look at xbox 360, only those old Xbox 360 that still can be Jtagged.

  • Concrete #110 2 years ago

    My guess is that either someone's figured out how to write a test kit OS/firmware onto a standard PS3 or they have got hold of a USB stick that boots PS3s into the test kit OS (presumably for PR reasons, such as demoing unreleased code).

    If its for PR its going to be a standard memory stick with the code/OS copied to it.
    If its for reseting, then you probably only need to put it in during the reformat to test kit status. Thats certainly all you need to do when updating the bios on test kits.

    Either way, if its test kit bios based, then some things are a given:
    You can play games online, but not against people using standard retail kits, it uses a different network.
    Some old games will work, others won't, it seems a bit of a lottery to me from previous experience.
    Any game released from today onwards won't work as they will make sure it will require an update to a version later than the one this provides.

    In the above scenario's Sony is going to have to be clever about the way it releases firmware updates to developers to stop this happening again, but I don't think the PS3 has been blown wide open just yet.

  • callum9999 #111 2 years ago

    darkmorgado - true, but this is a legitimate clause that I can't see ever being ruled illegal so it stands.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 19:01

  • paulf #112 2 years ago

    @ploop - you don't need xbmc if you have ps3 Media Server and a pc/mac to stream your media from

  • super_monty #113 2 years ago

    I haven't pirated a game since the days of ZX Spectrum school yard piracy, but due to silly add on prices and devs holding back content for dowloads and other issues - I must admit I am tempted.

    I have also spent over £110 on EOJ which is being taken off line, turning to priracy to get my own back and only buy AAA games sounds like a good idea ATM.

  • SG79 #114 2 years ago

    For the technically inclined, here's an meticulous explanation:

    http://ww w.nextgenupdate.com/forums/play...

  • klassobanieras #115 2 years ago

    Finally a way to repair my broken Linux box. It's still under warranty, so presumably Sony will cover the $150 this'll cost me.

  • darkmorgado #116 2 years ago

    darkmorgado - true, but this is a legitimate clause that I can't see ever being ruled illegal so it stands.

    Maybe not, but it could be ruled to be unlawful, and indeed has been in the Apple case (and could be further supported if the class-action suits against Sony for the removal of OtherOS - seen as an anti-feature - are found in favor of the claimants). If further precedent in this area is established and cases like this are ruled in this way in regions outside of America, then indeed the "you agree not to modify the software/hardware" T&C Clause will indeed be invalid as it will not be supported by case law.

    EDIT: For those not in the know, illegal and unlawful are different things. Illegal is where the law specifically forbids an act. Unlawful is where there is no legislation specifically saying that something is criminal, but where the law does not support it either, or where the law is seen to support an opposing stance.
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 19:34

  • AgentFortySeven #117 2 years ago

    whats the fucking point, there is fuck all decent games anyway.

  • AOFanboi #118 2 years ago

    So, "openness" fans, unable to produce or popularise a console platform of their own, try to demand that Sony should "open" their successful one instead, as if there is some inherent entitlement to the labour of others.

    Why am I not surprised?

    Go and get a GP3X or something and write "homebrew" to your heart's content. If that actually is your real desire. Instead of, you know, leeching off other commercial developers by pirating games...

  • darkmorgado #119 2 years ago

    AOFanboi, you just don't get it, do you? You're just generalising completely with no knowledge of the argument at all.

    But then maybe that should be expected by someone with "fanboi" in their username.

    Playstation1 was relatively open (Yaroze, etc) and that didn't exactly suffer for it, did it?
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 20:04

  • Emmit_Assassin #120 2 years ago

    Well, its a good job that only a few people have access to this, it would be really problematic if a well used and well known website published the names and details of how it works for all to read....
    ...oh...wait...bugger.

  • darkmorgado #121 2 years ago

    Examples of how an "open" approach to software has led to benefits:

    Wikis
    Firefox
    OpenOffice
    Linux
    Any game developer releasing their source code or editing software to the community, prompting long-term support for the game and eventually growing the industry as talented designers are able to learn their skills through software placed in the public domain. How many times do we see mod scenes collapse due to a developer's refusal to release the tools? And how many times have you ever heard this being discussed as a GOOD THING?
    The games industry was bloody born and grown due to the open exchange and access to coding languages and hardware use.
    Without openness, people like John Carmack wouldn't exist and its debatable as to whether the computer game would ever have been created, let alone come to dominate the entertainment industry.
    Edited by 3 at 19/08/10 @ 20:28

  • AOFanboi #122 2 years ago

    @darkmorgardo, I only see excuses and personal attacks. Do you have arguments? The Playstation's "openness" did not help it, it just meant a large number of consoles were sold so that the majority which paid for their software subsidized the leeches that did not, same as for any pirate-infested platform.

    It is still a case of someone pretending that they are entitled to "open" a "closed" device and constructing excuses instead of making the proper choice: To vote with their wallet and buy the open platforms they claim to want in the first place. The people running Linux on the PS3 knew they had a choice when the "OtherOS-removing" firmwre update came along, either stick with Linux and give up PSN and online gaming, or vice versa. To whine instead of standing behind a choice is childish.

  • darkmorgado #123 2 years ago

    The people running Linux on the PS3 knew they had a choice when the "OtherOS-removing" firmwre update came along

    But in reality, they weren't given a choice were they? If they were truly being given the option, Sony would sell the machines with OtherOS support switched on by default and then give you the OPTION of keeping it or removing it. As it stands, they don't give you that choice at purchase and if your console ever breaks down and needs repair or needs to be replaced altogether, then you no longer have that option.

    I don't want to get into a long-drawn argument about the removal of otherOS, but the fact does still stand that Sony originally made a huge fuss about how open their console was and how supportive they were of open-source and all the different benedits that it brought, before suddenly doing a massive u-turn.

    Open platforms thrive and continue to be used LONG after their "natural" life has ended (often before they have reached their potential). Just look at the humble spectrum - it's still being used today and people are still managing to push it ever forward - they've got the damn thing running DOOM.

    Oh, and the Playstation's openness DID help it, as did the early openness of the PS3. Yaroze led to the sales of loads of consoles, and the best homebrew stuff was regularly featured and applauded in the OFFICIAL sony-approved magazines and given away on cover discs. Many people who started off using Yaroze went on to become the talented programmers in the industry today. If I remember correctly, they even held competitions for the best homebrew. Sony made a huge fuss about how universities and the military had bought loads of PS3s to form clusters, using it as "proof" of the "power of playstation".
    Edited by 3 at 19/08/10 @ 21:03

  • Dead_Man_Typing #124 2 years ago

    Why is Eurogamer giving this piracy publicity!?

    This is news that should remain out of the official realms, and remain in the seedy underbelly of the internet and in discussion forums. This is practically advertising by having it as sticky'd front page news.

    Bad form Eurogamer.

  • Skurmedel #125 2 years ago

    AOFanboi: I wrote some homebrew on my Nintendo DS. Gave me much joy, how am I leeching on anybody? A proper Daily Mail statement you made there.

  • spiritsnake #126 2 years ago

    funny if not for eurogamer i would not have known about this. it was bound to happen right at the point sony starts making profit from hardware,who knows maybe they are the ones responsible for the hack and will be receiving the profits from the sale of those items usb dongle thingys,in a way maximising profits in every way possible and recouperating the earlier losses and gaining market share to boost sales of move and also timing it in line with kinect to steer the public to their platform instead.

  • darkmorgado #127 2 years ago

    FrontlineKhan,

    To be honest mate, I'd save your breath now. Many of the people in this debate, on either sides, have been very civil and open to the free exchange of ideas and debate. The hardcore closed-platform advocates are, almost ironically, also obviously stuck in a close-minded Daily Mail way of thinking where they are working on generalisations and assumptions that everyone holds the same absolute worldview as their own.

    Who'd have thought that close-platform advocates are close-minded?

  • darkmorgado #128 2 years ago

    You too mate. Not seen you on here before. Hope to see more of you :-)

  • darkmorgado #129 2 years ago

    "Me make wheel. Wheel is good. Wheel lets you do things you can't do without wheel."
    "Me want wheel! Me can think of lots of things to do with wheel!"
    "NO! You can only do things with wheel that I say you can do! Me don't want you using wheel if wheel means I don't get all credit for it!"

  • sabrecheeky #130 2 years ago

    I have been an avid reader of Eurogamer for, oh, lets see... at least 6 - 7 years... and this thread has finally made me sign up!

    I understand completely the arguments of the open source people. I own a GP2X. I own a Wiz. I am in the first 1000 for a Pandora (If you've not heard of it google 'OpenPandora'). I love open source gaming. But it must live alongside closed source. The simple fact of the matter is that open source will never pay the wages of as many people as closed source.

    Innovative game companies need people to buy their games. To pretend that this will be used for piracy by anything less than 99% of the users is delusional. Yes, the piracy wont bring big evil guns like Activision down, but it might mean that a smaller company doesn't get it's game out. And that might mean we miss a new LBP, or Ico, or Katamari.

    And that is not a price I think is worth paying.

    Edit for grammar
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 22:15

  • Zephro #131 2 years ago

    "The hardcore closed-platform advocates are, almost ironically, also obviously stuck in a close-minded Daily Mail way of thinking where they are working on generalisations and assumptions that everyone holds the same absolute worldview as their own."

    Arf. Rather than generalising about anyone who disagrees with you and mocking their intelligence. Nice.

    I don't think anyone has advocated closed platforms at all, just that it is up to the discretion of the person/company producing the platform whether they make it open or not. Which is essentially as it should be.

    To take the rather patronising wheel example. If I have funded and put my time and resources into producing the wheel then it's up to me how I protect that investment, not anyone else to force it upon me. If you don't like the contingencies I put on "the wheel" then don't buy the freaking wheel.

    I think your mistaking Sony Computer Entertainment for a company that takes part in the research community.

  • TopKatt #132 2 years ago

    "Me make wheel. Wheel is good. Wheel lets you do things you can't do without wheel."
    "Me want wheel! Me can think of lots of things to do with wheel!"
    "You own wheel now, you do what you want with wheel."
    "Good! Me beat wife round head with wheel til she be dead then I can have new mate, I can have Og as mate!"
    "Errrrrr...... "

  • darkmorgado #133 2 years ago

    @sabrecheeky

    Welcome!

    Out of interest though, what do you think of the argument that open platforms actually develop talent? (the aforementioned Yaroze, for example).

    Computer games were created by people taking software meant for something completely different and tinkering with it to make a game (SpaceWar). If that software had been completely closed, then there is an argument that computer games would never have been invented.

    I agree that, in the interests of IP protection etc, there needs to be a measure of control. But by maintaining absolute control over new technology, the inventors of that technology are prohibiting more imaginative applications that could benefit people in ways that the creators had not envisaged.

    And again, many people in the industry today learned their skills through developing and playing with open software. For people who can't afford university degrees or expensive dev kits, often open software is the only avenue they have to develop and demonstrate their talent (again, Yaroze among others). What say you to this?

    Technology should, in my opinion, be for the benefit of all. There will always be uses for technology beyond what the inventor envisioned, and occasionally those uses will be more beneficial than the original purpose.

    Look at platforms like the XBox, which was very closed and terminated long before it had the chance to reach its full potential. Now look at the Spectrum, which people have explored enough to get a working port of doom running on it. Imagine the possibilities, the potential that remains untapped in the XBox because Microsoft refused to allow people to explore it. Could the XBox, given sufficient time, actually manage to sustain something on par with current-gen? We don't know, because it's a closed platform. But wouldn't it be great to find out?

    Unfortunately the negative applications of open platforms gain far more publicity than the positive ones; EDGE ran a feature a while back that really looked at the homebrew scene and really showed just how amazing and worthy of support that scene is, and how many of the people in that scene are unappreciated geniuses. Surely we should be fostering that talent and that human ideal to explore, rather than stifling it for the benefit of the few?

    I'd love to hear your opinions on this :-)

  • darkmorgado #134 2 years ago

    Arf. Rather than generalising about anyone who disagrees with you and mocking their intelligence. Nice.

    To be fair dude, it's no more a generalisation than the people going round and saying "the only people who are pro-open-source are dirty pirates who want to steal everything".

    The majority of pirates might be pro-open-source, but it does not necessarily follow that the majority of pro-open-source are pirates. I've never pirated a game in my life, and never would (I think people should be rewarded for their hard work, especially devs who already get f*ck all through ruthless deals that favour publishers over the creatives), so I find it frankly offensive that certain people on here have basically labelled me as a Pirate.

  • darkmorgado #135 2 years ago

    @TopKatt

    Lol! Amusing.

    @Zephro

    The wheel example was not meant to be patronising; rather I was trying to simplify the pro argument in a way that made it obvious, with a dash of light-hearted humour. Apologies if you found it insulting as this was not my intent.
    The point of it was though that by exerting huge control over technology that could ultimately benefit all simply to protect your bottom line is, ultimately, a bit selfish surely? It just seems short-sighted to me and personally I think knowledge and development should be open to all, not just people who can afford it (yes, I am a dirty liberal - I actually head up a local LibDem sub committee), and the danger of closed platforms is that they may be controlled by people who lack the vision to appreciate or understand the greater applications of the technology. By all means protect your IP, but allow the utilisation of that IP by people with greater vision than your own (nothing stopping Sony introducing a simple not-for-profit clause while making the platform open).

  • Zephro #136 2 years ago

    I am also pro-open source. I'm just also pro choice for the person doing the development. It might not be the best model to take with a closed platform but it also might be. It's upto them.

    Also you do end up with things like OpenGL vs DirectX where OpenGL just sat in committee's for years. And how long have we been waiting for the new C++ standard grrrrr. But you also end up with brilliant pieces of software like gcc, which is better than any Visual Studio compiler ever made.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 22:37

  • darkmorgado #137 2 years ago

    I get what you're saying dude, I just wish that there could be a happy middle-ground that suits all (the aforementioned not-for-profit clause is a simple way of covering it, and a lot of people are using that now. NIN is using that while distributing all his master tracks for free remixing, for example).

  • darkmorgado #138 2 years ago

    I think your mistaking Sony Computer Entertainment for a company that takes part in the research community.

    Just wanted to point out by the way that Sony DO take part in research. They're a technology giant. A vast amount of their money and time is spend performing research to create new tech. But that doesn't mean they have thought through all the possible applications for that tech - in a sense their research is reactive (in that they develop something with a view to providing a solution to a predefined problem) rather than intuitive (inventing something because they can and then seeing what they can do with it).
    Edited by 2 at 19/08/10 @ 22:52

  • sabrecheeky #139 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    I suppose I am looking at it from a different point of view. I feel there are lots of places where coding talent can flourish, like the afore mentioned open source platforms, PS3 Linux (before we lost it), PCs etc. The PS3 would just be one more, and to be honest, from my experience there will be little in the way of 'homebrew' which will come close to stretching the PS3's limits - so in that regard I feel that an open PS3 (beyond what was available under otherOS) would not bring anything new to the table. The technology is just too far in advance of your average home coder.

    But what it might take from the table is that which falls in between. The indie software houses who live a dangerous existance between profit and loss. As I said, not the activisions who make millions churning out the same stuff that they know sells to the masses, they will survive but their output doesn't interest me.

    Current open source platforms love emulation. The pandora I mentioned can run up to and including PSX and N64 games pretty well already, and it is believed that, during its lifetime, Dreamcast might be attainable. Will people use this machine to run roms they don't legally own? - almost certainly, but the people who created these games have already been paid for their hard work.

    I suppose that makes me a hypocrite, but the games that are developed today will be the museum pieces of tomorrow. I guarantee that in 15 years time, you and I will be holding in our hands a piece of technology that we rip our old antiquated blu-rays to, and allow us to play these old classics again.

    And allowing people control of the technology is what makes that happen. I pay quite happily to keep these people that create the games I love in their jobs. The less of us out there willing to do that, the less great games there will be.

  • Zephro #140 2 years ago

    In previous times I was a researcher in CS so we used to be part of the research community and shared open source software and ideas. It was great and some of the best companies we had relationships with at the Uni were Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Sun and Nvidia. But that was only part of what they did.

    However having been around video games programmers they have a really different company culture. Jobs turn over faster, the money is riskier, piracy is an issue unlike the research community etc. Also you'll find video games company programmers and executives often couldn't give a toss about academic arguments.

  • darkmorgado #141 2 years ago

    And allowing people control of the technology is what makes that happen. I pay quite happily to keep these people that create the games I love in their jobs.

    As do I - I do not advocate piracy one bit. But I think that by closing everything off just to combat one nefarious aspect, we are also closing off entire oceans of potential. As I said, I believe a simple "feel free to play around with the tech all you want, but don't even think of making a profit out of it" would suffice - the vast majority of the homebrew community aren't doing it for money, they are doing it just because they can, to fulfil that human instinct to explore.

  • Zephro #142 2 years ago

    Just wanted to point out by the way that Sony DO take part in research. They're a technology giant. A vast amount of their money and time is spend performing research to create new tech. But that doesn't mean they have thought through all the possible applications for that tech - in a sense their research is reactive (in that they develop something with a view to providing a solution to a predefined problem) rather than intuitive (inventing something because they can and then seeing what they can do with it).

    I said Sony Computer Entertainment not Sony. There's a subtle difference I think.

  • ZeroAX #143 2 years ago

    If this addes .mkv support I'm sold. Or hopefully Sony adds .mkv support with a firmware update that combats this

  • darkmorgado #144 2 years ago

    @Zephro

    Of course, I was just looking at it from a broader sense (SCEE being a component of the larger corporation, etc).

  • Zephro #145 2 years ago

    Also you can practice programming and your exploration of algorithms on any computer. In fact I'd advocate people just grabbing a linux distro, gcc and emacs along with a copy of Knuth any day over homebrew and playing with the PS3 system. It would increase there talents far more.

  • darkmorgado #146 2 years ago

    However having been around video games programmers they have a really different company culture

    Perhaps that is exactly the problem - the culture. They are looking at it purely to make money; the open-source movement aren't concerned with money at all but rather with the dissemination of knowledge and its wider benefits. I guess it's a culture clash with wider philosophical leanings.

  • darkmorgado #147 2 years ago

    @Zephro

    Sure, but any PC doesnt have the unique architecture of a PS3. That's what makes it so interesting - the idea that there is all this unlocked potential hidden in a (by Sony's reckoning) system deliberately made difficult to access. Surely you can see how intriguing that is? Sony say it has all this hidden power due to its unique architecture. It's like waving a red flag to a bull - "come and see what you can do with it!"

  • Zephro #148 2 years ago

    Yeah that's the case generally. But even the lowly programmers tend to view it as a product, or a piece of art etc. They tend to think of themselves as skilled builders rather than researchers.

  • sabrecheeky #149 2 years ago

    As most DF articles show, even the professionals have trouble getting the best out the PS3! As both Zephro and I have said, there are much better and easier places for talent to show itself.

    If you compare the PSP homebrew scene - admittedly it has been a while since I last checked, but I saw very little that specifically needed the PSP architecture to create. In the time I followed it, there was nothing, for example, that even touched the polygon capabilities of the graphics chip.

  • Zephro #150 2 years ago

    Also the PS3 doesn't have that interesting an architecture. You could in theory explore the potential of heterogeneous multi processing using a GPU these days. Most shader processors are very similar in terms of vector processing. There are also fun PCI boards and development boards you can get to explore all this stuff, which are designed for people to use at home and learn on.

    I do agree that removing Linux from the PS3 was a really tossbag-ish thing for Sony to do. But that just shows they don't appreciate the research community that were using it. People should just go get some other things to play with instead.

    Eh I just doubt people's intentions as if you really were purely going after knowledge there are avenues open to you other than breaking into a platform there doesn't seem much point of breaking in to. It's just the mystique of graphics and games that draws people to it half the time.

  • darkmorgado #151 2 years ago

    As most DF articles show, even the professionals have trouble getting the best out the PS3

    The counter-argument to that would be that by opening it up to more people to exmaine and explore, you can nurture and increase understanding and this then leads to more people having the skill to maximise the potential.

  • darkmorgado #152 2 years ago

    I can see both sides of the argument, and broadly speaking I think you can too even if our resultant positions are somewhat different. I was just trying to demonstrate that the appeal of opening up the PS3 to homebrew goes far, far beyond the simple piracy of games, which is a tired and insulting argument that shows little imagination.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 23:42

  • Dizzy #153 2 years ago

    "But you also end up with brilliant pieces of software like gcc, which is better than any Visual Studio compiler ever made. "

    I hope you realize that all compilers nowadays are virtually equal since the art of compilers has been fine-tuned 10+ years ago. Gcc produces the same quality code as visual studio and visa versa.

  • Zephro #154 2 years ago

    Not really. The problem is more one of training and multi-platform code.

    All other platforms at the moment either have a single thread or the have multiple equally weighted threads (usually phtreads like the ones running on the main CPU of the Cell). So you design an architecture supporting this model and it'll run on an Xbox, a PC, a super computer cluster etc. It will generally have similar properties. People can get the goods from the PS3 it just takes extra effort, where as you do what you already know for minimal effort and target all the other platforms in one swoop.

    The main thing DF normally pick up on is just that the GPU has less memory and memory bandwidth for rendering full HD. Which is a bit shrugworthy.

  • darkmorgado #155 2 years ago

    If a humble spectrum can run a pretty convincing port of DOOM with all its perceived limitations, what could a PS3 potentially do? I'm sorry to keep coming back to that example, but it's the best one I can think of off the top of my head.

    I think often people just think that they have reached the maximum potential of something because they don't have the vision or ability to push it further (in a sense, they have reached the limit of their own personal potential, not the limit of the technology they are using), or because more advanced tech has come along that can do the same thing more easily (the human desire to embrace somplification). Eventually we will reach a ceiling, and the only way to raise it further will be to continue building on the existing foundations rather than tear the building down and start from scratch again.

    Look at the PS2. When it first came out, the stuff being released wasn't that far removed from the generation before it. Then look at the "end" of its lifecycle, and the stuff being released wasn't far behind the generation ahead of it. That's a huge gulf of performance that came through years of exploration. Then we just moved on to tech that did stuff a bit more easily. Where's the limits? How do we know that, given another couple of years on its cycle, we could even now be experiencing PS2 games that manage to squeeze potential out of the machine to the degree that we could be playing stuff equivalent to so-called "current gen"? And who will explore that? Not the commercial sector, because there is no money to be made in it. So why not open it up and just let those with an interest explore those possibilities just because they can?
    Edited by 4 at 20/08/10 @ 00:51

  • Zephro #156 2 years ago

    I hope you realize that all compilers nowadays are virtually equal since the art of compilers has been fine-tuned 10+ years ago. Gcc produces the same quality code as visual studio and visa versa.

    Not a matter of quality. I just don't like MS's #pragmas and it annoys me when they don't conform to the standard. new should not return a NULL pointer ever! Bloody C programmers.

    Also compilers are still changing and advancing even today, their optimisation routines in the face of threading are pretty shoddy really. I used to work on a JIT compiler. It's also an area which came from academic research largely so that MS could just borrow information from the research community, which is still why gcc is a great example of an open source/community led project which was my point.
    Edited by 1 at 19/08/10 @ 23:54

  • JBlokeUK #157 2 years ago

    I really cannot understand how some people can see this as a good thing. I don't get it at all.

    Piracy pretty much ruined the PSP and the games seriously dried up. Do we really want that to happen again?

  • des #158 2 years ago

    It looks like this is true...hacked hacked hacked

  • darkmorgado #159 2 years ago

    I really cannot understand how some people can see this as a good thing. I don't get it at all.

    Read the arguments over the last couple of pages dude, there's some really good points being made by pro, con and middle-ground advocates. The argument really does go beyond simple piracy.

  • JBlokeUK #160 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado

    Yeah admittedly I've only just skimmed through a few comments so far but I feel there will be people, stupid people imo, who will see this as being 'great news'? Only god knows why.

    EDIT -mcwildcard's comment on the first page has pretty much summed it up for me.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 00:33

  • darkmorgado #161 2 years ago

    I recommend reading the rest of the comments then - they explore the legal implications (which suggest that Sony may well be unable to legally combat this based on the Apple case and the notion that that ruling could well spread to all regions), and go well beyond the piracy argument to take in other avenues such as homebrew and consoles/software being explored to their full potential beyond their regular "support", as well as finding a middle ground between opening up a platform whilst still retaining IP control.
    From a personal point of view, this has been the most interesting thread that I have participated in for months.

  • womble #162 2 years ago

    Seeing all the pirates justify this is pretty ugly. It's not a freedom of speech issue, or a about information wanting to be free or any of that bullshit.

    It's simply about people playing games for nothing. i.e. piracy, by freeloaders.

  • JBlokeUK #163 2 years ago

    Totally agree womble. Having read through the comments a bit more, I don't buy the whole ''technical achievement'' rubbish at all. It's these hackers who feel it's well within their right to play games for nothing.

    If that's the case then the software developers may as well pack up and go home, so to speak.

  • abigsmurf #164 2 years ago

    Incredible that a system with such well designed security had such a weakness, you would've thought they would have made PS3s or debug keys be forced to authenticate with a server to work.

    That said, all Sony have to do to fix this is to disable the pre-boot usb loader in firmware updates. It would make repairing units with corrupt firmware much more expensive for them but not as expensive as the widespread piracy this loader could cause.

  • darkmorgado #165 2 years ago

    Seeing all the pirates justify this is pretty ugly

    I've not seen a single person in this entire thread condoning piracy, so perhaps you should take your ignorant assumptions elsewhere.

  • orangpelupa #166 2 years ago

    just hope someone figuired what is this usb thing and make easy to use tutorial to make this Jig USB ourselve just like PSP jig battery.

    it seems this thing will alow any usigned code to run under Game Privilage. Homebrew once again, will be blooming on PlayStation (3).
    Really love the homebrew scene on PS2.
    anyone know/remember SMS on ps2? really awesome homebrew allow my PS2 to act as great multimedia player. Can play many kinds of file, from LAN, USB, HDD, CD, etc
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 09:29

  • edhe #167 2 years ago

    "I'm pretty sick of this argument to be honest because it does not make sense. It's like saying "I own a gun and I have the right to do whatever I want with it". Well, that's simply not the case. Just because you bought it and it can shoot people that does not mean you have the right to do that just because you feel like it."

    I may well be far too late to this comment but.. wtf?
    If you have bought a piece of hardware and it's not l icensed to you then it's yours. You can *MODIFY* that hardware however the hell you want. It's YOURS. That doesn't mean that using the hardware any way you want is legal or correct. If you modify your ps3 to play backups then that's your business. If you make game backups and pirate games then that's the sign of small genitals.

    The comparison to a gun is heinously daft in your interpretation but actually does make sense in mine. *But* you can modify a gun any way you like, shoot anything you legally can. But as soon as you start doing things you're not meant to with it that effects others then that's baaaad.

  • Sunyavadin #168 2 years ago

    @Der_tolle_Emil
    You miss the point - how many people bought a Saturn or N64 compared to Playstations? I know I was certainly in a minority with my Saturn.
    Now look a generation down the line at the PS2: its competitors barely made a dent in the market. Dreamcast had a good shot, but too many were determined to wait for the PS2.

    THAT is how your console becomes the "De Facto Purchase"

    Once you have a box in every home, piracy levels of 60% won't harm you or third party publishers - since the effective monopoly you have means that your sales are three times what they would be in a market of three competing platforms.

    It's very basic economics.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 10:35

  • Sunyavadin #169 2 years ago

    @JahB
    "The problem there is, the device allows for piracy; you could even argue it was exclusively designed for that. Yes, there are valid applications to the device, but the reality of it is that it will be misused by the vast majority of buyers."

    By that definition Toyota should be up in court for manufacturing the default vehicle of choice for guerilla armies. Sure, it has other uses, but the fact remains, it's largely used to shoot soldiers out of the back of...

  • Dolly #170 2 years ago

    I'm confused.

    If I have a shark and put a laser on it, do I become Dr Evil?

  • darkmorgado #171 2 years ago

    Not to mention that developing on an open platform is much cheaper and faster than developing for a closed one, so it actually encourages smaller devs.

    Cheaper - No need to purchase special licenses or expensive development kits.

    Faster - Easier access to larger amounts of information, making it a lot easier to get up to speed with the platform. Also, bugs and development problems are solved much faster as more people will have encountered something and worked on a solution. Open software tends to contain far fewer bugs and is maintained much more frequently than proprietary software. It also means that there is potentially a much greater labour pool to draw from when recruiting staff, as people are able to develop their skills at home with little to no cost.

    Thus the cost and time it takes to develop a title or programme is reduced dramatically, enabling people to take more creative risks as the potential loss is lessened but the potential profit margin is increased. Because of that increase in profit margin and lower cost, you can afford to actually absorb some of the potential increase in piracy due to a more open platform; your increased profit margin will more than offset the losses incurred by piracy, and people following this model have so far found themselves to be making far more money than by utilising closed business models.

  • superdelphinus #172 2 years ago

    "If this is true, I don't think that Sony *can* do much about it, particularly from a legal perspective. Apple lost their court case against the makers of iphone jailbreaking software, with the ruling stating that once you have bought the hardware, its yours to do what you want with it (so long as it's not illegal, obviously), so there is now legal precedent in favour of jailbreakers."

    completely different scenario. One is of manipulation of software which is licensed to consumers, the other is a hardware exploit. the Apple case was about competition and locked-in software ecosystems. you couldn't run that argument here

  • Fernando #173 2 years ago

    sorry guys, but it looks like sony only has one option, to destroy ALL PS3's with a single firmware update :(

  • womble #174 2 years ago

    @ darkmorgado "I've not seen a single person in this entire thread condoning piracy, so perhaps you should take your ignorant assumptions elsewhere. "

    Perhaps you should read a bit of the thread, educate yourself before posting next time.

    e.g. "I personally don't see Sony's issue with piracy. They owe most of the original PS1's success to it. I don't know a single PS owner who didn't have at least a 70% pirate game collection. Everyone I knew bought it precisely BECAUSE you could get all the games you ever wanted off a guy on the market for a fiver each. "

    But please, don't let the facts get in the way...

  • daveflounders #175 2 years ago

    1-it's a debug unit ..2-pre-orders $170 for a usb dongle..3-fuck off

  • darkmorgado #176 2 years ago

    @FrontlineKhan

    I did find it odd that he told me to go and read the thread, completely ignoring the fact that I have been one of the biggest contributors to it (or maybe he just hasn't read it himself).

    And yeah, the example he gave was one guy (when he used the plural "pirates";) who just used an anecdote about piracy on PS1 and didn't mention the PS3 or even touch on the larger debate going on here. He's just demonstrating the same ignorant "all supporters of open-source must be pirates!" line that others have taken, willfully disregarding all the evidence to the contrary.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 11:56

  • woodnotes #177 2 years ago

    I'm really worried about these hackers that may have a cracked PS3. Was it like that when they got it or did they drop it?

  • memeroot #178 2 years ago

    If you want an open platform then buy a pc.

    If you want to play a ps3 exclusive game then buy a ps3 and the game.

    btw- impressive stuff from sony on making it so difficult to hack!

  • mumblyjoe #179 2 years ago

    But actually, they do when it comes to firmware cracking. It's been firmly established in the courts now. Apple got well and truly trounced for banning cracked iphones.

    I was under the impression that apple had to allow this because it allows people to use there iphones on a different network. It still voids your warrenty anyway.

    Anyways this "crack" can only lead to more bad news for the honest gamer.

  • darkmorgado #180 2 years ago

    If you want to play a ps3 exclusive game then buy a ps3 and the game.

    I do, and will continue to do so. But as has been established, this goes well beyond the playing of pirated games. This could easily reintroduce OtherOS (and without the restrictions Sony placed on the feature on the first place. It is also theoretically possible that it could reintroduce Backwards-Compatibility. It could also lead to the machine's viable use as a server or media centre, and once again open the machine up for use by research groups and people wanting to create clusters.

  • funkateer #181 2 years ago

    "If this is true, I don't think that Sony *can* do much about it, particularly from a legal perspective. Apple lost their court case against the makers of iphone jailbreaking software, with the ruling stating that once you have bought the hardware, its yours to do what you want with it (so long as it's not illegal, obviously), so there is now legal precedent in favour of jailbreakers. "

    Of course they call the PS3 crack a 'JailBreak', because that would imply the same legal status as the iPhone jailbreak (which is excluded from DMCA), but in fact it's not the same thing: This PS3 hack is specifically designed to bypass copy-protection and is therefore illegal (look up Anti-Circumvention laws).
    The iPhone JailBreak otoh is just designed to run third-party code, and to give your root access. Not the same thing.

    If the PS3 crack would not enable streaming copied games through USB, than maybe you might class it as a JailBreak. But if this crack is real, it's most certainly illegal.

  • darth_paul #182 2 years ago

    @darkmorgado
    about the backwards compatibility, im not sure this hack will help. as far as i know, the ps3 needs a chip (emotion engine) in order to play PS2 software... which costs money, which is why is was taken out of the ps3, to cut costs.

  • darkmorgado #183 2 years ago

    This PS3 hack is specifically designed to bypass copy-protection and is therefore illegal (look up Anti-Circumvention laws).

    No it's not, it just activates the PS3s debug mode, a software state that is already present in the machine at retail. It's really no different from getting into the test menu of your Skybox or router in that regard.

  • darkmorgado #184 2 years ago

    in order to play PS2 software... which costs money, which is why is was taken out of the ps3, to cut costs.

    Nope. The original models used the Emotion chip, but the later models scrapped the chip and used emulation instead. It's possible that emulation software has always been present in the machine and was just activated/deactivated through software patching instead of being added later.

    Plus, last year the minutes of a meeting were leaked that confirmed BC was actually just removed because Sony wanted to start selling your existing PS2 collection back to you as upscaled "remasters" - and as we know, that is already happening (GOW Collection, Sly collection, etc).
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 12:42

  • Darren #185 2 years ago

    Whatever the truth it's still damn impressive how Sony have managed to prevent games piracy on the PS3 for over four years, particularly when you take into account that it is a far more open system than that of the Xbox 360. Kind of ironic really, given how security conscious Microsoft are with their console (to the point where you can't even put MP3s onto the hard drive or have user created content) yet running pirated games on the 360 is reputedly easy so long as you don't go online.

  • Widge #186 2 years ago

    I'm eating sushi

  • darth_paul #187 2 years ago

    @Darkmorgado
    "Nope. The original models used the Emotion chip, but the later models scrapped the chip and used emulation instead. It's possible that emulation software has always been present in the machine and was just activated/deactivated through software patching instead of being added later. "

    never heard about the possibility of the PS3 playing PS2 games only trough emulation. you'll have to prove your claims with links, considering that i made some extensive research in the past, and all the info pointed out to an dedicated chip. Plus, why would sony scrap a feature, if it did not cost them money??? at the time they were struggling to fight the X360, and the loss of the backwards compatibility didnt help, for sure.

  • Rodster #188 2 years ago

    A lot of individuals are worried about lost sales with piracy. I have never been tempted to exploit my 360 even knowing it was an option. The same goes for my PS3. I have no desire to exploit my consoles. And I have little doubt that piracy on the home consoles is not that bad as some think. Gamers love to play on XBL and PSN. That's the equalizer and what's kept me from going to the dark side. Plus you can rule out getting patches, updates and addons for your games when you hack your consoles.

  • daveflounders #189 1 year ago

    @Milky1985 it was the asking price of $170 that made the sceptic in me think this is strange..i just hope Sony dont take a sledgehammer approach and disable the option of using usb sticks or any other storage device other than the hdd. if that is even an option for them..would love to be a fly on the wall at ps3 HQ..headless chickens all round..any offical word from sony yet?
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 13:21

  • jonbwfc #190 1 year ago

    @Darth- the EU never had a PS3 with 'hardware emulation' i.e. the built in emotion engine chip. It was in the first generation PS3 in the US & Japan, but was removed from the units launched in the EU and from later revisions in the other two territories. They only had software based emulation, which has since also been removed.

    They scrapped the embedded emotion engine chip because it did cost them money - both in terms of the component itself and making the main board more complicated and therefore more expensive to manufacture. They scrapped the software emulation partly because it never actually worked that well and, as has been suggested, partly because it stood in the way of a market opportunity.

    Jon

  • darkmorgado #191 1 year ago

    @Darthpaul

    [link url=http://www.hardcoreware.net/pl aystation-3-80gbs-ps2-backwards-compatibility-sucks/
    ]http://ww w.hardcoreware.net/playstation-...[/link]

    As I said, the original PS3 provided backwards compatibility through the emotion engine chip. Sony later removed the chip in the 80gb and subsequent SKUs and backwards compatibility was instead catered for through emulation (hence why the later BC SKUs have a much lower compatibility rate than the original models). The emulation was either switched off via a firmware upgrade in later models or removed entirely from the software architecture of the machine (which I find unlikely personally, as it would be a lot of work for little benefit). As such, there is a high possibility that the code still exists within the machine and that this hack could lead to it being reactivated - something Sony won't be happy with, because it suddenly makes their "remastered" editions look a lot more cynical.

    With regards to money issue, the expense of including backwards compatibility through the chip wasn't an issue at all (at that stage, the inclusion of a single, decade-old microchip would have cost mere pence), and certainly there was no cost at all in providing it through emulation (it's not like they have to manufacture anything physical for each machine). This leads back to the aforementioned leaked meeting notes (I believe they were actually leaked from SEGA, as Im sure I recall they also mentioned Alpha Protocol development and how SEGA didn't think it was "rpg"-enough) that mention how Sony dropped BC because it wanted to start re-releasing old PS2 games so that people would buy them again, rather than use their existing library.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 13:31

  • darkmorgado #192 1 year ago

    @jonbwc

    I believe you are slightly wrong there - the original 60gb unit in the EU had the chip. It was one of the reasons I originally bought the machine.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 13:30

  • JaysonG #193 1 year ago

    @darkmorgado

    jon is right and it's one of the reasons I didn't buy the PS3 at launch
    Euro PS3 limited due to costs

  • funkateer #194 1 year ago

    "No it's not, it just activates the PS3s debug mode, a software state that is already present in the machine at retail. It's really no different from getting into the test menu of your Skybox or router in that regard. "

    Your analogy with a router doesn't work. The menus in a router are public and meant to be used by the public; they don't enable breaking copyright laws.
    What is shown in the video is a device that enables game copies to run on a PS3, which is something that Sony has prevented for many years. Whether that's using a (protected by Sony for a reason!) debug mode or not is irrelevant, the point is that this device circumvents copy protection, which is illegal.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 13:39

  • mr2ange #195 1 year ago

    @darkmorgado

    You are both wrong, the EU 60gb ps3 has the GPU (Graphics Synthesizer) but not the CPU from the ps2, so half of the backwards compatibility was through hardware and the cpu (emotion engine) is emulated in software.

    The original Japanese and American ps3's had both the CPU+GPU so they provide full hardware backwards compatibility.

    (Look it up on wikipedia) :)

  • Haggar #196 1 year ago

    I bet the teams living the real life Matrix.

    Get a job.

  • vizzini #197 1 year ago

    I think there is a big difference between an Open Playstation 3, and Playstation 3 hardware running an Open system.

    I'm sure electrical engineers/hackers could easily remove the ps3 hypervisor/hardware mapper and have a bricked system, that needed a new bios (written/installed by them) to access the ps3's full hardware capabilities.

    But I'm guessing the reality of true openness isn't actually what most people who want an open system mean; instead they really want to exploit Sony's expensive proprietary R&D for free; so they can just add features to a consumer console that makes it a professional development tool that was sold at a loss of +£10,000 originally.

    I personally think my launch ps3 (still with OtherOS 3.15) was great value for money, and my 250gb slim at £230 is equally good value without that feature.

    Would I like the ability to upgrade my old fat system for £200 to a legal devkit with RSX support? Yes of course.
    Do I wish GeoHot hadn't cost me £230 to buy a 2nd system? Yes of course.

    And if someone can develop a method to remove all sony's bios/hypervisor and replace it with an original open source bios to run linux/open source software then I'm fine with that.

    But I don't believe hacking/illegal workarounds still using Sony R&D supports a games industry model I really like; or helps loss leading innovation in hardware when Sony have already removed gaming restrictions like region locks.

    As for the iphone, I'm sure I read in the bill amendment that is was to allow iPhone users their free-market consumer rights to move to other 3G enable network services, which justified the reverse s/w engineering; and nothing to do with people having a right to openness on hardware platforms.

  • darkmorgado #198 1 year ago

    @Milky1985

    That's what I was trying to get at; kudos for putting it more elequently than I could have.

  • vizzini #199 1 year ago

    The sharing of the Debug software will be illegal on the grounds of RSA authentication technology; which comes under a whole host of import/export treaties and terrorism laws (iirc from reading the firmware licensing agreements and Uni lectures many years ago).

  • Retroid #200 1 year ago

    I find this interesting for homebrew stuff like emulators and media players.

    Unfortunately there's always bloody piracy, which is what this will mostly be used for if it's true :/

  • mumblyjoe #201 1 year ago

    Theres nothing wrong with the built in PS3 media functions (apart from not being able to play .mkv) Although it would be good to have XBMC on there :D

  • Retroid #202 1 year ago

    mr2ange is wholly correct about PS2 BC - it was *never* through emulation entirely, only PS1 & PSP Mini support has managed that. The 'emulation' was mostly just for the CPU, the launch 60gb PS3s still had the PS2 GPU and some related bits in hardware. Those 60gb models will still boot up PS2 games with current firmwares. I should know, I own one.

    IIRC Sony said those models were using emulation but (so far as I know) never stated to what extent, so everyone seemed to think it was entirely in emulation and Sony never bothered correcting them. That's where the near-constant rumours of PS2 BC returning seemed to come from.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 16:16

  • vizzini #203 1 year ago

    I always assumed the hypervisor ran on the 7th SPU in black box security mode; using RSA key encryption to authorise permission for all actions with the system. Though this would be an issue for lawyers, I'd be quite surprised if any use of the RSA algorithms to falsify a person's or device's identity with a secured system is legal in any country, or the act of selling devices to do that.

    It doesn't seem that much different to finding a bank card/pin number and using it to empty someone's account without permission; I assume that is an illegal act in UK, just like unforced entry and robbing is.

    On the UK PS3's (PS2) b/c I remember reading that Sony couldn't convince Toshiba to lower the cost of the chip needed; iirc it was previously costing +£20 extra per console.

  • Retroid #204 1 year ago

    Really? Seems a bit mad for it to have cost them that much.

    I always presumed (wanted) Sony to basically have a PS2-on-a-chip and slap that chip in both PSTwos and PS3s. Bah.

  • darkmorgado #205 1 year ago

    just like unforced entry and robbing is.

    Unfortunately, it is all but impossible to gain any sort of conviction in these cases and the police will very, very rarely even arrest someone for it, let alone prosecute them. It all comes down to the "unforced" part. You cannot prove that someone broke into your property because there is no evidence; because of this, you cannot prove that you have been robbed unless you have an independent witness who saw it taking place (and even then the police will argue that you could be falsely reporting a robbery in order to make a fraudulent insurance claim).

    In cases where someone is found to be on the premises by the police, if they have not forced entry and they have a set of keys (let's say that they are a former housemate who secretly made a copy of the keys before they moved out, then decided to return and take your stuff) then all they need to do is claim that the property they are removing belongs to them. Unless you can prove that it doesn't, the police will not get involved because it comes down to your word against theirs and it then becomes a civil matter (you will have to sue to get your property back, and that normally fails without a conviction and aforementioned proof of ownership - and let's face it, how many of us really keep our receipts?).

    I should know, because unfortunately I have been a victim of this twice in my lifetime.

    So yeah, basically it migt be a crime but its practically unenforcable due to loopholes and the placing of the burden of evidence on the victim instead of the criminal.
    Edited by 3 at 20/08/10 @ 16:25

  • Retroid #206 1 year ago

    mumblyjoe: "Theres nothing wrong with the built in PS3 media functions (apart from not being able to play .mkv) Although it would be good to have XBMC on there :D"

    I was thinking of XBMC & MKV support when I said that :)

    Also: I still cannot for the life of me work out a decent reason why the PS3 doesn't support grabbing podcasts via RSS feeds like the PSP does. It'd be chuffing excellent.

  • SG79 #207 1 year ago

    @ Vizzini

    I'm not sure about the costs, but Toshiba doesn't have a say in it. Sony owns the IP of the PS2 tech entirely, including the EE which Toshiba was contracted to design, so all cost reduction and manufacturing is up to Sony alone.

    Besides, the EE IS emulated on the UK PS3. The culprit is the GS with the eDRAM since you can't really emulate bandwidth (48GB no less), and that was included in every box.

    The only exception in console history has been the original Xbox as far as cost control goes. MS didn't own the IP's of any of the tech inside so they literally had to buy the finished components from Intel and Nvidia, so they really couldn't wait to pull the plug out.

  • darkmorgado #208 1 year ago

    @SG79
    That's interesting regarding the XBox, and goes some way to explaining why they dropped support so suddenly at a point when it was just starting to reach its potential.

  • vizzini #209 1 year ago

    I'm sure Toshiba were definitely involved, the wiki shows it as co-developed and other sites have said the same.

    [link url=http://en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Engine
    ]http://en .wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion_Eng...[/link]

    I'll try and find the article regarding toshiba's cut with regards to lowering ps3 manufacturing costs.

    edit:

    I can't find the article; but I'm sure I read a follow up q&a to the playstation 3 press release for the 40Gb or 80gb.
    It might have been a develop mag article or gamesindustry.biz article

    but this link I found on the BBC shows more evidence to suggest Toshiba might have more say in the EE than people think

    [link url=http: //news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1216551.stm
    ]http://ne ws.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1216...[/link]

    As for the emulating bandwidth, the ps3 has plenty, the problem is that some advanced techniques on ps2 were so time critical that emulating them is almost impossible, with rewriting

    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 18:45

  • udat #210 1 year ago

    Chaps, for such a high traffic thread, this really has been dominated by reasoned argument and thoughfully presented points of view. Apart from a few notable idiots (e.g. the lad who said "try reading the thread" to one of the primary contributors) I think you all deserve a pat on the back.

    Personally I am of the opinion that non-copyright-infringing uses of ones own kit should be allowed and protected by law, while being bang alongside the idea of people being able to protect their products (games) from piracy. It's a bugger to find a workable middle ground though.

  • darkmorgado #211 1 year ago

    @udat
    cheers for the kudos, and you and I are in complete agreement. Protect their games by all means, but allow people who want to play with and learn from the hardware and have paid several hundred quid for it to do so.

  • SG79 #212 1 year ago

    @ Vizzini

    Yes, the EE was almost entirely designed by Toshiba but Sony owns the IP so the onus on cost reduction falls on them. Besides, the emulation issue lies on the GS chip, which was designed by Sony themselves (that subsidiary is also shut down now). Perhaps that article was referring something relating to the PS3 itself? Toshiba does have more say on Cell and even the manufacturing fabs (since Sony sold them).

    Of course, the 60GB and then 80GB (NTSC) units didn't have the EE but retained the GS due to the bandwidth issues. It's hard to emulate bandwidth but not the techniques, but a lot of PS2 games use the 48GB bandwidth on the eDRAM quite a bit. Even emulation through PC miss some of the visual effects (ICO for example). Hence, re-engineering like the GOW collection is needed.

  • Velgent #213 1 year ago

    Aren't Sony protected by the European Copyright Directive which, among other things, adds protections for anti-copying technologies and digital rights management.In particular, the Regulations allow rightholders to take action against those individuals who circumvent what the law calls Technological Protection Measures, or TPMs, to make unauthorised use of copyrighted works. Action, including criminal action, can also be taken against those who make and distribute equipment designed to circumvent TPMs. ( thnx wiki/ random law site). They used that regulation to sue a guy in 03 for selling PS2 modchips. Now I know modchips are legal in the UK, but that regulation still stands.
    Edited by 1 at 20/08/10 @ 21:02

  • SilentNinja92 #214 1 year ago

    Hopefully sony can just release a firmware update blocking the USB dongle.

    It should be ok. The psp has gotten harder and harder to crack over time and the ps3 is much more secure than that. i doubt this will last long as its a hardware attatchment, that can be blocked.

  • MiY4MOTO #215 1 year ago

    If I could get XBMC on my PS3 I might actually use it for something other than exclusives... which I'd still buy as unfortunately they're still few and far between. At least the ones that I'm interested in are. /sigh

    God I miss XBMC...

  • Osmond #216 1 year ago

    I think there is far to much hassle and tech knowledge required (for joe average) for any current gen home system to be hit by rampant piracy . The fight will go on , with sony /microsoft making things hard for the unwinnable battle with the hackers but as long as its not too easily done like p.c. games and the nintendo DS's R4's etc .. I dont think home console piracy is a big threat really, especially on the ps3 with its blu-ray .


    Im not too clued up on tech but wasnt the ps3 "impossible" to hack because something to do with the cell chip being disabled, unless running a game.(guessing here a bit) not too sure but i remember some thing in DF about this.

    On a personal note about the morality of videogame piracy, i think if i could easily pirate any titles i wanted, it would take a lot of my enjoyment out of gaming and im glad i can't .
    I admit, it would be tempting sometimes but id feel dirty/guilty and you would have so many games i wouldnt get that " looking forward to feeling " anymore, that the gap between affording a game brings and maybe some of the the appreciation of what the devs had managed would be lost. ( being glad you bought the game if its excellentand they deserve your money)
    Edited by 2 at 20/08/10 @ 22:53

  • Pwnsweet #217 1 year ago

    Sony have taken away so much from the PS3 since it's release. PS2 compatibility started it, but removing Linux sealed the deal for me. I'll not feel guilty at all buying and using this thing.

  • NeoTechni #218 1 year ago

    "They owe most of the original PS1's success to it"

    No, they owe most of their success to game sales.

  • Quixz #219 1 year ago

    The 360 has been hacked for a few years now and yet it never affects it's game sells..

  • Josh128 #220 1 year ago

    Disagree that piracy hasnt hurt the Wii. It has-- how could it not? There are thousands of people around the world playing pirated copies of Other M right now and the game has yet to be released. There are thousands more who havent downloaded yet and are planning to. Same thing happened with Mario Galaxy 2.

    Lets say only 10,000 pirated copies of Other M have been distributed and played worldwide (probably a very conservative figure). At $53.99 USD per copy, thats over half a million dollars...for ONE game. You dont think Nintendo deserves or could use that money? Look at the PITA that is Valves "Steam" verification system-- all because of thieves and lowlifes stealing their product instead of paying for it. Piracy has crippled the already struggling PC games industry, and will do the same to home systems if it becomes widespread enough.