In Theory: How Microsoft could build a new 360 for 2010 Comments by Richard Leadbetter

YAWN.

oh the shame!

"But does the 1UP story have more substance than we give it credit for, bearing in mind the timing of Ballmer's bombshell just days later?"

No. Next?

Interesting article. :)

I have to say that it would be a very ballsy move if Microsoft announced that they are going to overclock their supposed next iteration, considering Microsoft's terrible track record with consoles exploding in flames (joking, of course, but not really). I think Natal integration in a future console is probable inevitable, though.

facepalm

"PSP-style overclock"? But it's a 333 Mhz processor, they just didin't allow that at first due to battery life issues. Not so much overclocked as... wel, just clocked.

I try to stay positive and leave nice comments, but I can't see many people finding this interesting. Though it takes all sorts I suppose.

Jaysus aren't there enough articles on this speculation already?

I would rather have the next console , not a re - done old one . 5 years is long enough . need more power now and support for a mouse , gotta try and keep up with the super powerful Pc's . sod the bloody camera and motion controll .

There won't be any upgrades, which is a shame. I'd be more interested in 512mb extra ram than i am in natal.

If you want a mouse, and are happy to shell out on new hardware at premium launch prices every 5 years, ever thought that perhas rather than keeping up with the PCs on a console you should perhaps be PC gaming instead?

Erm, this 2 page article could be summaried in 3 lines.....

MS is going to shrink the form factor of the 360 llike was done with the PS1,2,DS,Megadrive,Master System etc. Natal will probably come integrated with the new model. Thanks MS for the pay cheque.

For those that would rather read a more level-headed article without the shameless G.W Bush propaganda --> http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/...

This article takes the speculation a little too far...

I suspect it will be a 360 housed in a smaller sleeker kid friendly case with NATAL built in and aimed at the Wii market, probably a lot quieter too.

lol@article

Seriously - a slightly changed look and a new hardware revision, with some die shrinks, running cooler, quieter and very marginally faster through a little clock-speed ramping is as much as you can expect. Things like expanding the amount of EDRAM are pie-in-the-sky, the point of EDRAM is it's -embedded- in the chip, and so increasing it would require changing the chip layout, which is fantastically expensive.

interesting article! nice to a fairly balanced argument.....oh and just watched that head tracking vr display video....which is actually pretty awesome!! the effect must be stellar in person, it was impressive enough in a video!

Steve Ballmer is a sales guy, he's not a technologist and never has been, was the first non-techie hire at Microsoft. So, even though he has been CEO of Microsoft for nine years, when he says "new console" I don't take that at face value to mean 'new specification'.

Good article by Digital Foundry addressing whys and why nots of potential hardware bump -- was there any speculation?

It must be really galling for 1080p TV owners that they aren't going to get a console that can properly use their TV till something like 2015. Especially since MS could probably up the RAM to 2 gigs and put in an R700-based GPU (as well as doing the die-shrink clock increase thing) without pushing the xbox above the cost of a PS3.

With all due respects to Richard's article, which is pretty savvy, when considering the "fragmentation" issues caused by changing hardware capability (extra ram specifically) it should never be forgotten that a major part of MS vision for the 360 is for it to be the gateway device for a wide range of services provided via Live.

So long as the services on offer (which are OS driven) take advantage of the enhanced tech, and existing software isn't affected, there is no downside.

Let us not forget last October MS announced that the next Xbox would be forwards compatible, and that existing games would be enhanced on that platform.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/art...

interesting article.

i would buy a new 360 if they make it smaller and a bit more slick. right now it's the ugly duckling in my entertainment center

@Vegard
Ugly?

No it isn't.

I'd buy an updated 360 that either ran games a little smoother, or increased the texture quality slightly. And if it ran quieter, all the better. I've always thought an updated console, that was still compatible with old games and doesn't alienate existing owners is a good idea. No one's forced to change their console, but those that do have improvements, and those considering giving up on the PS3 will get a better deal. Everyone's a winner. I'm in.

Not the best article I've read on EG. Far too long for its content.

I think the only two things that are probably right here are these: Next gen consoles might be more an extended upgrade of what we've got and that secondly, the real changes will be in including things like motion tracking (that head tracking thing is immense) and improvements in the user experience over and above what dyed-in-the-wool gamers might prefer in a full blown graphic upheaval. To be honest the graphics right now are fine, don't think anyone's hugely thirsty for even better graphics, I'd take the next gen in this form with improvements in the user experience/interaction with the console and some fair improvements in graphics, I'd be very happy.

If they can make the next iteration of the 360 hardware, or indeed the 360 itself just a quieter, more reliable machine then that'd be perfect. I really like the potential Natal has, and if Peter Molyneux and the like get their act together and actually achieve what they're suggesting then there's a whole new level of gaming soon to be opened up.

So, to summarise, improvements in the behind the scenes stuff rather than purely on graphical flair (highly improved AI, motion tracking as standard, and perhaps even support for 3D displays of some kind), I'd be happy with all that, just please bring it on before 2015... 2010 or 11 seems fine to me and about the right timing, especially if graphics might be left similar to what they are now for a few more years to help incorporate, cheaply, these new standards.

I'll reduce the article to a pithy paragraph....

New chips can be run cooler, faster, contain more in a reduced size, all while costing less to make; including them is a no brainer and a necessity as fabrication plants move(d) from the 360's old 65nm tech in bulk and 32nm production is going better than anyone dared to hope. Apple & Nintendo have made millions rolling out iterative updates - so MS are going to give it a whirl.

It's unbelievable that people keep on talking about an Intergrated NATAL.

The camera NEEDS to be separate in order to be placed properly. It won't be integraded, it'll be bundled with.

Given the amount of information out about this the coverage has been more than excessive, especially considering 'new console' stories (this is the first one to be titled new 360 not new xbox) are potentially damaging to a platform holders short term business.

OMFG!!! Johnny Lee.. That guy INVENTED head tracking, before him head tracking didnt even exist and no-one knew what it was!

Nobody - not even nintendo could do head tracking without his help. Without him, a project would be doomed


(and end sarcasm)

If you look at the Gamecube to Wii transition, the internals aren't very different, there's no big change from a programmer point of view, but it was totally rebranded and the marketing strategy changed and it was a huge success.

So this could be Microsoft aiming to copy Nintendo's success. Make a new console that is only marginally more powerful and fully backwards compatible with the last, aim for profitability, include a new kind of input device (natal), rebrand from 360 to a different name to make it seem like the new cool thing, market it toward people with casual interest in games.

They might reduce the size of the machine and make it look nice at the cost of losing compatability with 360 hard drives, but making it cheaper to manufacter.

In 2010 MS will introduce a redesigned Xbox, hopefully smaller and quieter. Not much to discuss really and I agree with most parts of the analisys. However, the author tells us "But where I think 1UP has it right is that Microsoft and Sony will almost certainly be investigating the Wii hardware model for their next consoles in that there's a strong argument for making the new hardware an off-shoot of the existing designs".

I just hope he is wrong (I'm just that egoist!). That approach ended up well for Nintendo this generation (they didn't have lots of money after the Gamecube fiasco so they couldn't afford a state-of-the-art new design, so they overclocked the cube and gave it the Wiimote). They made a brave move and succeeded, but they were lucky. Very lucky.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think most players start being casual and end up being a little graphic whores. Maybe today the whole market of new wii-players don't care a lot for graphics, but they will eventually. If someone gives people the same user experience and better graphics, people tend to switch loyalties pretty fast. Hell, even my mother (who can't play a DVD without asking for help) notices generation leaps in consoles ("Got a new machine? That looks soooo much better than the stupid thing you were last playing").

So, we need better graphics. True HD experiences (that being 1920x1080@60fps with 4xMSAA). Current consoles struggle to achieve 720p@30fps 2xAA in most demanding games. So the next generation needs to double the number of pixels on screen, double the framerate and allow for 4x multisample antialiasing: Processing power and memory must increase x4, at least.

If any of the big names decides not to make the good old generational leap, it can backfire. Imagine that Sony takes the existing PS3, adds more RAM, beefs up the Cell and RSX as well as including their Motion Controller, and call it PS4. It's just so risky... if MS or Nintendo decide not to follow that route and make a new architecture the generation wars for Sony would be over even before Ps4 was launched.

Just think of the difference between the Wii and the 360/PS3. That is a generational leap. There is no way a beefed-up 360 or PS3 can compete againt technology in 2013 (they can't even compete with last years PCs). The Wii was an exception because motion control was unexpected and people just loved it (a miracle!), it's very unlikely to happen again. Or so I believe.

I agree with the article in that I think a new form factor 360 will be released bundled with natal, no harm in that really PS1 & PS2 did it to extend the lifecycle.. But maybe the extra ram etc in the "new" console will be used for natal only & then the usb natal for the old 360's will have to do the sums itself before sending them to the 360?, makes far more sense than upping the 360's spec but only by 20% & still splitting the userbase with "new" games that don't run on the old systems, I can't see many dev's wanting to develop only for the "new" console anyway, epsically at the moment when money is so tight.

Theres one thing I think Richard has missed though, the Wii has worked so well beacuse its a second console, going by the forums I'd say most people here that own a Wii also own a 360 or a PS3, sometimes both, but more often than not just one or the other. Anyway, if Sony & Microsoft both take the Wii route and make these upgraded PS3/360's and market them as prober "new" consoles then people won't see them as second consoles, they won't buy a prober next gen console & an overclocked PS3 for example beacuse the real next gen powerhouses won't exist yet. The Wii's success is a one off, I think Microsoft & Sony can see this & I call bullshit on a new 360 that will play new games.

instead of beefing up the Cell for ps4, couldnt they just use the current Cell but put two in the box instead of one :)
double the RAM and graphics... it will be like two ps3's on one motherboard.

"shameless G.W Bush propaganda"

Now we read everything. This is not about a product anymore, it's politics. Check your dns, matey, wrong site.

MS are about offering new servies and experiences to the same user base and extending the platform to over areas beyond what it does now.

hence Sky Anytime support, 1vs100, and the whole NXE.

Natal is merely their attempt at differentiating themselves as they go forward into Wii territory.

They knew if they merely launched a waggle stick and nun-chuck they'd be laughed at, so motion tracking -however unfeasible it is in the majority of games or not, is their USP.

But for it to be a meaningful prospect, they need every 360 owner to upgrade to Natal, or at leas t50% of them in no time.

That either means bundling Natal with every new 360 sold from luanch, or making it dirt cheap.

Frankly the way MS are talking makes it sound exactly like they are going to relaunch the 360 with Natal and essentially sell it as a new system without actually having anything new to offer ebeyond Flapping arms.

This "relaunch" thing is just like what they said about NXE (check yesterday's internet), it's PR. And it's sure working. Every non-360 user has his eyes on this Natal thing, if nothing else, to say it sucks.

"Maybe today the whole market of new wii-players don't care a lot for graphics, but they will eventually"


I *TOTALLY* disagree with you there. My opnion is that people "grow out of" wanting graphics over gameplay.

When i was a kid, graphics were all that mattered.. but back then, graphic improvements actually HELPED the gameplay.. Obviously the difference between controlling a dot and pretending it was a car and controlling something which LOOKS like a car is huge.

However, nowadays it matters jack shit in my opinion.

Case in point : Tell me, how would improving the graphics on Super Mario Galaxy - say making them hi def.. How would that improve how it PLAYS exactly?

It wont, it'd make bugger all difference to the game - just will look a bit crisper (and if most 360/ps3 games are anything to go by - have a lower frame rate). Off topic, but personally i'd rather have lower res games runnign at 60fps myself - as the framerate MATTERS to the game itself.

I'm currently playing fallout 3 - love it. But I'd have preferred it if they cut back on the graphical features and had it running at 60fps. Would it look worse if they converted it to the wii - obviously yes... would it play any different? No.

As for natal.. i still dont see the point. There's still nothing from a gameplay point of view that i can see it doing - that wasnt already being done on the playstation eye.

(before some twat jumps in) yes i know it can detect 3d movement. But I fail to see how it'll be of any use to anything apart from crappy mini game collections similar to the ones for the eye toy.

Hell even the painting program they demoed was nothing the eye toy couldnt have done.

Oh, and that's before i mention the HUGE lag which was happening when that woman was playing that "ball break" game. The game was at least 1 second behind her movement... Watch the video and pause it if you dont believe me.

But yet gamers have once again bought into bullshit marketting hype... and so we repeat...

I'd like to see them build the first one properly before moving onto a whole new raft of problems.

People aren’t putting 2 and 2 together. There will be a new xbox, and it will be upgraded hardware no different to a PC upgrade. This is a major step and M$ is covering it up at all costs.

The new 360 however will be 100% code compatible with today’s 360. Tomorrows games will work just fine on existing consoles. It will be a new "Elite" type sku. Buying the new “Elite” will be an option for the enthusiast initially and the baseline tech within 2 years. Today's 360 hardware will still remain as the cheaper and casual Natal SKU (aka gamecube to wii scenario). Natal camera will also be bundled with the Elite - but of course the whole sku will come at a premium.

What will the new 360 Elite offer? Today’s ~720p 30fps games will run at 1080p 60fps with more AA. New games will be designed with both Sku's in mind and scale textures and effects, res etc. accordingly. You will buy the one Disc and it will work on a regular 360 and the new 360. Aka 100% compatibility. This will be achieved no different to how PC games have always scaled on countless PC configurations. However with only 2 controlled configurations, full optimisation and stability will be simply acheived, and all will be well.

There were rumblings everywhere a while back about forward scalable games etc. This was exactly the first revel of M$'s strategy going forward. And this strategy will remain the same with all future console upgrades. Developer investment will no longer be thrown out like previous console iteration. Tools, codebase & methods will be as they are today. This is the natural evolution of the console market - zero burden on developers and publishers while facilitating forward movement. The leaks we are seeing here and there, from 1up and Ballmer’s speech are no coincidence.

This of course also beautifully fits the plan of totally eliminating Sony. 2010 will see 360 Elite be leaps and bounds superior to the PS3 and be the logical choice for the high end gamer. Which is what the PS3 is seen as today, High-End, and that niche will be dissolved.

Activision and other publishers are making waves in the press about PS3 pricing, penetration and even dropping support for the Sony platform. All these measures are designed to force Sony's hand to drop the price knowing full well what's around the corner and Sony’s future relevance in the market without drastic price adjustment. Why support a platform that will be irrelevant within 12 months if nothing is done?


Print this out and bury it. I for one am looking forward to playing me some GRID in 1080p, 60fps on my 60" plasma come next year! I am however somewhat concerned about the brutality of M$'s dominance in the market in the future, competition needs to exist to push the envelope.

Muz

@ Miiguel - Didn't mean to offend anyone but EG with that quote.....Just think this article sheds very little. Apart from Ellie & Tom's pieces EG has lost touch PES style. There are better tech articles on the net about this, and just pointing it out....funnily enough from the USA (hence the Bush jibe).

As for my "DNS" erm.... says Eurogamer at the top, but feels like I'm reading.....don't know....random thoughts inside someone's head?

Console company will eventually perform a technical upgrade of their hardware shocker. Is that really worth 2 pages at top site real estate?

Devkits have traditionally always had double the RAM of the regular console. I'm surprised to hear that/if this is different for the Xbox 360 to be honest.

"What will the new 360 Elite offer? Today’s ~720p 30fps games will run at 1080p 60fps with more AA."

Yeah....all 3 of them.

@smelly

+1

hopefully they will forget to sort the firmware thing out so we can still chip them and blag all the games for nothing.

i'll buy one if i can play a dvd on it and not hear the fans over the quiet bit of the film

They're not going to change the RAM amounts, since it would screw over all of the already-bought 360s. 'Here, we developed this game totally on 1Gb RAM machines, it will run stutteringly on the millions of old consoles out there'

That wouldn't accomplish anything. I just hope they put in enough RAM from the get-go on the next iteration of the console.

Smaller, with built-in wifi and a Blu-ray please. Then they hit the PS3 and the Wii market at the same time. I would buy a new machine just for Blu-ray.