Deadly Creatures Comments by Dan Whitehead

@xagarath

Yes, that's totally true. There's also no such thing as a traditional voter, traditional loyal customer or even market analysis. Blur the boundaries, everyone's different and the same. Let's not be smart enough to make distinctions or differentiate without causing offense, and then ultimately top it off by claiming those boundaries don't exist while at the same time pigeonholing them into one. Morons of the world, unite!

@electrolite

Just because the terms are hard to define doesn't mean that you shouldn't try or that the boundaries don't exist. Gaming is a relatively new medium and has had very little analysis applied to it. The most that has will have been done by marketeers and ultimately their only interest is in how they can make more money. I'm 29, also have a girlfriend and have been playing games for around the same time - I'm the one my friends ask when they want to know about games. My mate who has a Wii has bought 10 games for it and hardly plays it. I would say you have to try harder to find games of quality on the Wii, but YMMV.

Yes, I'm a 360 owner because I consider myself discerning (hence using the word 'snobbery' and saving anyone else the trouble) and that system offers the best value for money against quality of games. I hate Microsoft with a passion but still made that decision.

As for the 'immersion in virtual worlds' bit

That was more pretentious that I could have made it sound - what I ultimately mean is escapism. The 360 or PS3 could bring out motion sensing next week if it wanted to, but the Wii will never be able to run GTA.

And lastly, re. the 'system that will play the game for you', none of us have any idea what that means yet, so to be complaining about something that in real terms doesn't exist is pointless

It nevertheless points to a worrying trend, and if you like waiting until the shit hits the fan then you must absolutely love living in the UK.

@schnide

Wii Motion Plus to me is a concession that it isn't good enough and there's a history of this kind of thing in the industry. The N64 memory expansion pack, Sega CD, GBA SP.. it's worrying Nintendo didn't think to include these functions. As a gamer, I'd expect them. But Nintendo wasn't looking at people like me who'd like these things, which is why they've alienated me and thousands like me and instead have 6 year olds and fat housewives playing on their latest console.

Before anyone thinks I'm losing sleep over this, I'm fine, but it means I'm instead playing on a Microsoft console each night because Nintendo gave up the fight (and Sony screwed up too of course, it's just not wholly relevant to this discussion).

The PC will always be able to look the best because their is no standard hardware limit - if you have the cash, you have the best graphics. Paying less for a console guarantees I can run whatever's released for my platform. Do you want to play out the console vs PC debate here or do you want to stay on topic?

You can't pay less for a console and have it all like on the PC. Manufacturers have to decide on which features to include and fix a price point which guarantees the most sales, then later add accessories which add life to the machine before the market is ready for a newer generation. Surely thinking as you do (you want a machine with everything) the PS3 would be your console but you have a 360 and have to buy things like the Wi-fi adaptor and HD DVD drive separately. So is the 360 underpowered or isn't it?

The right answer is you found a console which gives you the features you find important at the price point you find acceptable, not that the 360 is the solution to everyone's problems. The Wii and the PS3 also have their own feature lists and price points.

There's also no such thing as a traditional voter, traditional loyal customer or even market analysis. Blur the boundaries, everyone's different and the same. Let's not be smart enough to make distinctions or differentiate without causing offense, and then ultimately top it off by claiming those boundaries don't exist while at the same time pigeonholing them into one. Morons of the world, unite!

Then why do you claim you're a traditional gamer? You're only claiming that because you played games from a certain period on consoles from a certain period using controllers from a certain period, claiming that previous machines were underpowered and the Wii is underpowered and dumbed-down and has a gimmicky control system. Then you talk about 'not being interested in immersing yourself in alternate worlds because you can't get your head around how a joypad works' when a joypad basically hasn't changed since the Atari 2600 and is hardly immersive.

If you were interested in immersing yourself in an alternate world you'd probably be charitable enough to find the Wiimote (at least in its Motion+ form) interesting in some way or another, but as you don't I suspect what you're more interested in doing is immersing yourself in one kind of game using the one kind of controller you've always used, which you're entitled to do, but that doesn't really mean that you have found the one true path and everyone else with a different console and controller is mistaken.

and if you like waiting until the shit hits the fan then you must absolutely love living in the UK.

If you're talking about the economic crisis, I don't think anyone's going to get off lightly.

@Dan234

You can't pay less for a console and have it all like on the PC.

Yes I know. What did I say that counteracted that?

Manufacturers have to decide on which features to include and fix a price point which guarantees the most sales, then later add accessories which add life to the machine before the market is ready for a newer generation. Surely thinking as you do (you want a machine with everything) the PS3 would be your console but you have a 360 and have to buy things like the Wi-fi adaptor and HD DVD drive separately. So is the 360 underpowered or isn't it?

I'd like a toilet seat made of gold, but it just ain't on the cards baby! You oversimplify. The Wii is fundementally hamstrung, its processing is grossly underpowered for this generation (something that now you seem to be blindly ignoring) and even it's only major selling point isn't as good as it should be. If the PS3 was easy to program for so that the 360 didn't keep beating it in the EG comparisons, I'd have bought a PS3. Begrudgingly, in my most humble opinion, the 360 is the best games machine. The Wii is a toy and the PS3 is a multimedia machine that hasn't come into it's own yet. I was holding out for a long time on which of the two current gen machines to buy because I wanted the PS3 to realise it's potential, but I got bored of waiting.

The 360 isn't underpowered because no add-on you can buy changes the way that games can be played. The Wi-fi adaptor is a mere practicality, and I don't have a TV for Blu-ray. The 360 is grossly underpowered as a modern movie player, just as it's grossly underpowered as a sat nav device or an esspresso machine. I want to play games, that's what gamers do, and the 360 does that best. By that rationale, the Wii isn't underpowered if you want a game of bowling with PS2 graphics.

The right answer is you found a console which gives you the features you find important at the price point you find acceptable, not that the 360 is the solution to everyone's problems. The Wii and the PS3 also have their own feature lists and price points.

Agreed. My main argument is that my answer is the same as for the majority of gamers. As in traditional gamers, by my definition. Which brings us on to..

There's also no such thing as a traditional voter, traditional loyal customer or even market analysis. Blur the boundaries, everyone's different and the same. Let's not be smart enough to make distinctions or differentiate without causing offense, and then ultimately top it off by claiming those boundaries don't exist while at the same time pigeonholing them into one. Morons of the world, unite!

Then why do you claim you're a traditional gamer?

I was being sarcastic. Of course all those things exist.

A joypad basically hasn't changed since the Atari 2600 and is hardly immersive.

This is not an argument. The wheel has been the same shape since the stone age but you don't see F1 cars skidding around corners on granite tyres.

If you were interested in immersing yourself in an alternate world you'd probably be charitable enough to find the Wiimote (at least in its Motion+ form) interesting in some way or another, but as you don't I suspect what you're more interested in doing is immersing yourself in one kind of game using the one kind of controller you've always used, which you're entitled to do, but that doesn't really mean that you have found the one true path and everyone else with a different console and controller is mistaken.

The Wii in principle has merit - but the GRAPHICS HARDWARE ISN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH AND THE CONTROL SYSTEM ISN'T REFINED ENOUGH FOR THE WII TO BE CONSIDERED A CURRENT GEN GAMING SYSTEM. If I shout louder, do you hear?

and if you like waiting until the shit hits the fan then you must absolutely love living in the UK.

If you're talking about the economic crisis, I don't think anyone's going to get off lightly.

I mean the way that apathy is a way of life, it's a general principle people seem to live by here. I had ID cards specifically in mind when I wrote that, but that's off topic. My point is that it's absolutely not wrong to object to something because of the potential ills it might bring just because it hasn't happened yet. Life must be easy for you if you think that way. Look at how Facebook recently went back on their new t&c's because people objected before the problems were caused. Presumably you'd have waited until your private photos were sold by Facebook, and then defended them for doing it.

"The Wii in principle has merit - but the GRAPHICS HARDWARE ISN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH AND THE CONTROL SYSTEM ISN'T REFINED ENOUGH FOR THE WII TO BE CONSIDERED A CURRENT GEN GAMING SYSTEM. If I shout louder, do you hear?"

Um, no, because you're not making any sense. A gaming generation need only be defined by the fact that it's current; I was unaware of any special set of criteria a games system had to have in order to be considered "CURRENT GEN," so as long as you're going to be a pontificating windbag, how about enumerating them for us?

By the way, what your friends do isn't something you can safely use to infer what the entire world does -- this is a lesson best learned early, like before you learn to type on internet forums, so please stop stating anecdotal evidence as universal fact.

The Wii is not necessarily powerful enough to run games appearing on the PS/360, I don't think anyone disagrees with that statement. So what? And the motion controls are definitely sensitive enough to function well, just look at Let's Tap! for proof of that. The primary issue with the gestures is that some 3rd parties haven't realised their limitations (3D positioning was never an advertised feature, so not relevant) and acted accordingly. The fact that Deadly Creatures allows for adjustment to gesture detection is a revelation and very welcome, so that the player can determine how much they want to move the controller before triggering an on-screen action.

@Sean.Aaron

The PS2 is still on the market. Is the PS2 is current gen, too? The Wii is essentially a Gamecube with a wand interface. Gamecube is last gen.

No, what my friends do is not something I can safely use to infer what the entire world does and anecdotal evidence is not (necessarily) universal fact. I meant to imply neither, and retract any comments appearing otherwise.

I've been a wanker for over 40 years; I don't see myself as a traditional wanker or hardcore wanker, don't get me wrong as I'm certainly dedicated and my life time ambition is to leave the earth's atmosphere to become a floating wanker. I didn’t realise that I had a problem until I became a fan of Microsoft consoles; now I’m the biggest wanker in the world.

@ schnide

The Wii in principle has merit - but the GRAPHICS HARDWARE ISN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH AND THE CONTROL SYSTEM ISN'T REFINED ENOUGH FOR THE WII TO BE CONSIDERED A CURRENT GEN GAMING SYSTEM. If I shout louder, do you hear?

I think I can safely say what I'm hearing, someone who's made the mis-conception that similar graphical technology was the only defining feature in previous generations of hardware, when the period of their release is really the only measure. Try getting over the fact that the biggest selling system of this generation, so far, isn't the one with the biggest pair of socks stuffed down its pants.

Try accepting that you are one type of gamer who mainly gets his jollies out of how flash things look on the screen, because it sure as hell doesn't mean you are the only gamer that matters.

I'll be 39 in a few months, I've been playing videogames since the mid-70's (yes, they did exist then, they didn't magically spring to life when the Xbox did with it's superior graphics, last gen), you eventually get to a point where you are more interested in whether graphics do a good enough job to play the game, rather than what latest rendering/shading/lens tricks it pulls off. Personally, I find the FPS genre to be absolutely boring, barring the odd exception, so the predominance of them on the PS2 and Xbox, leading onto them being dominant on the PS3 and Xbox 360, actually put me off those systems.

I bought a Wii because it's giving me enough games to play and enjoy; yes, I get PO'ed every time I see the latest mini-game fest/shovelware crap put out, but I at least have enough brains to recognise that I'm not the target buyer for those games. Yes, I also would like to see more mainstream games put out on it, especially ones that do exploit it's capabilities (strangely enough, it can actually do some pretty good graphics, they're just not in HD), but I don't see the point in repeatedly knocking a system down because of the things it can't do; if you've got a point to raise, make sure it's about what a game's not doing, which it should be capable of, not what it could never do.

It's like how some reviewers keep on mentioning, "whilst it's never going to look as good as a PS3/Xbox360 game..."; no shit, Sherlock, we didn't know the Wii could only output only SD resolution from the day of its release, not at all! You've made your choice, no matter how much you keep on bleating about it, it's not going to change the fact that there's a system on sale which doesn't have as good graphics, even though it keeps on outselling the one you chose. Accept it, move on and just hope that Wii2 does have HD graphics and a Wiimote that does detect every single little movement of your hands.

@YenRug

Sorry, I stopped reading what you've written after the first few paragraphs. Bells, whistles and graphics do not a good game make.

Being able to throw more stuff up on screen means that you can provide more of an experience (in most genres, since I have to caveat everything I'm saying for all you enraged Wii owners). You will never be able to play Fallout 3, GTA or anything else similar to that on the Wii. Ever.

There's no game on the Wii that you couldn't do on the 360 or PS3 if an inadequate motion sensor peripheral was released.

If you're happy playing cut-down versions of 360/PS3 games, Super Mario or games to stop your fat sister going to the gym, then by all means buy a Wii. In the meantime, the Wii still cannot be taken seriously as a games console for much if anything outside of that.

You pays your money, you takes your choice. That my opinion on it seems to strike a nerve with so many - may I presume - Wii owners probably says as much about you as it does me.

Oh and by the way, who's disputing the success of the Wii?

My point is, and always has been, that it isn't gamers who are buying the majority of them and the reasons for that are those stated by me and professional journalists (I use the term loosely, of course) whose work you come here daily to read.

If you need to quote sales figures as a measure of success for your console then perhaps I can interest you in eating shit, because after all, 38 billion flies can't be wrong.

(Although you rarely see them playing Wii Music..)

when the next generation consoles do things besides graphics that couldn't be done, then it's safe to differentiate. But the top 20 games on the 360/PS3 are still shooter sequels, GTA sequels, 3D fighting games, platformers sequels re-done in hidef, tomb raider clones, or Morrowind games, all being copies of ps2-era gameplay.

clearly, and undisputably, the leap from "PS2-era" to "HD-era" is nowhere near as significant as the PS1->PS2 leap, which brought multitudes of new gameplay types to the table, and before that the 2D->3D leap which was obviously the largest shift.

there's an argument I appreciate (but don't 100% agree with) that some of the games on the Wii are more defacto next-generation games because they couldn't be done on the older systems due to peripheral constraints.

but to stay on-topic and point out the obvious, Deadly Creatures clearly isn't one of them.

@merkdot

Even if the best-selling games available for the more powerful systems are hard to differentiate, at least those machines have the potential for doing more.

Either way, sensible counter-arguments. About time too.

"You will never be able to play Fallout 3, GTA or anything else similar to that on the Wii. Ever. "

I don't understand the point of this. If I wanted to play those games I'd buy the system they're running on. I don't, so I don't really care. If you like you can feel like a snob about the 360, but the fact is that anyone who has a Wii and really wants those kinds of games will get a second console; people that don't give a toss see you as a preening fanboy tosser saying "Look at me! Look at me!" in front of a mirror.

Seriously, get a fucking life.

schnide: perhaps if the industry could break out of its "HD console games are graphics first" mould, then it could happen. But while the generation that first put the Playstation on the map insists on graphics being the primary feature of the modern full-price game, there is no practicable chance of anything interesting happening, due to the memory limitations of the HD consoles.

Yes I know. What did I say that counteracted that?

Because you appear to want it all, apart from the price.

The Wii in principle has merit - but the GRAPHICS HARDWARE ISN'T POWERFUL ENOUGH AND THE CONTROL SYSTEM ISN'T REFINED ENOUGH FOR THE WII TO BE CONSIDERED A CURRENT GEN GAMING SYSTEM. If I shout louder, do you hear?

Yet above you said 'Graphics are not clearly of importance to me' and go on to contradict it immediately with 'Graphics are at a certain standard each generation and the Wii falls far behind', when the fact is that Wii graphics about as good as they can be on SD televisions.

What would you say to someone who said 'Video quality is not important to me' and then go on to immediately contradict it with 'Freeview (digital television through a TV aerial) falls far behind digital television through Sky'?

And, have you tried the Wii's control system on a game which uses those controls well? Or are you doing the equivalent of slating the PS3 because Lair is difficult to control?

I mean the way that apathy is a way of life, it's a general principle people seem to live by here. I had ID cards specifically in mind when I wrote that, but that's off topic. My point is that it's absolutely not wrong to object to something because of the potential ills it might bring just because it hasn't happened yet. Life must be easy for you if you think that way. Look at how Facebook recently went back on their new t&c's because people objected before the problems were caused. Presumably you'd have waited until your private photos were sold by Facebook, and then defended them for doing it.

This seems very off-topic, but...

1) I don't live in the UK.
2) ID cards aren't modern, they seem to have been favoured mainly by dictators in the 30s.
3) Just on the television today in Spain there was the story of a poor man who had his ID card stolen, a mortgage taken out with a false ID card using his ID card number, the person who faked his ID still hasn't been found meanwhile the person in question can't get any credit and has been trying for nearly 10 years to get social security to clean up his records, his name taken off credit blacklists, and remove the part of his monthly salary embargoed to pay the mortgage that the other person was not paying. You can see where the shiny modern parts are (automatic embargo of all current accounts belonging to someone with ID card number 123) that aren't necessary any good.
4) I don't have a Facebook account and don't want one, one of the reasons for not wanting one is privacy. If you think Facebook offers you privacy in its current form you must be barmy.

You see, you can assume all kinds of things about people and they all turn out to be false.

Anyway, it appears that you're happy with what you've got. So why do you need to preach to everyone else?

in fact, to touch on the earlier casual/core argument, it is my opinion (shared by some of my more free-thinking friends), that the "Playstation Generation" are very firmly amongst the casual set.

Sony successfully created a whole new market made up of customers that just wanted impressive and acceptable electronics, with the games to match. Hence the popularity of Gran Turismo for example (to my knowledge, the biggest selling first party exclusive title in terms of sales per SKU).

sadly for fans of interesting/unique/experimental/novel (choose your adjective) gameplay that this 'Playstation Generation' would probably find irreverent, the option is just a scattershot of games spread across Wii, WiiWare, DS, XBLA, PSN and PC.

so the expert System Warriors, who have honed their "debating talent" (i.e. splitting hairs, ignoring arguments and generally being unpleasant) are happy to sit and snipe and generally pick on anything they don't understand or doesn't fit the formula of "graphically intense racing and shooting".

to me, Gears of War, Halo, Killzone, whatever, these are just like pop music. The Girls Aloud of videogaming. Brainless casual fodder. Sure, you can discuss the expert arrangement of the gameplay (tune) by the real studio pros behind the game (band), and appreciate the graphics (tits), but let's not kid ourselves that this is groundbreaking or even slightly cerebral.

"Anyway, it appears that you're happy with what you've got. So why do you need to preach to everyone else? "


This X1,000,000...

@schnide

Well, that's really odd then, because I thought your whole argument has been about how superior the graphics are on the PS3/Xbox360 and why all these games should be on there, instead, and how much better they would be. I only commented on the sales figures, because it's what really seems to irk you the most about this "inferior" gaming system (that loads of people seem to be enjoying playing), you're wondering why so many people would buy it in preference over your choice.

But, I guess, that is the key word, isn't it? Preference.

Because you appear to want it all, apart from the price.

You seem quite eloquent a writer but also keep missing my points. I know that consoles aren't as powerful as PCs, but what I get for less money is the safety of knowing my system won't need to be upgraded within a certain time. Which is exactly what I said.

Yet above you said 'Graphics are not clearly of importance to me' and go on to contradict it immediately with 'Graphics are at a certain standard each generation and the Wii falls far behind', when the fact is that Wii graphics about as good as they can be on SD televisions.

You're missing the point again. I don't buy a game for it's graphics, but graphics allow a certain level of.. I've said this elsewhere. A 360 or PS3 can do better things on an SD or HD television. It's not just resolution and nor did I ever say it was.

What would you say to someone who said 'Video quality is not important to me' and then go on to immediately contradict it with 'Freeview (digital television through a TV aerial) falls far behind digital television through Sky'?

I'd say that doesn't contradict it as long as they're not buying Sky purely because the Freeview signal isn't as good. What's with you lot making blanket assumptions? Graphics quality is not important to me, but the games that rely on it are. The Wii is not as capable graphically as the 360 or PS3. This is fact.

And, have you tried the Wii's control system on a game which uses those controls well? Or are you doing the equivalent of slating the PS3 because Lair is difficult to control?

I've played Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Kart, Marvel Alliance and Splinter Cell.

2) ID cards aren't modern, they seem to have been favoured mainly by dictators in the 30s.
3) Just on the television today in Spain there was the story of a poor man who had his ID card stolen, a mortgage taken out with a false ID card using his ID card number, the person who faked his ID still hasn't been found meanwhile the person in question can't get any credit and has been trying for nearly 10 years to get social security to clean up his records, his name taken off credit blacklists, and remove the part of his monthly salary embargoed to pay the mortgage that the other person was not paying. You can see where the shiny modern parts are (automatic embargo of all current accounts belonging to someone with ID card number 123) that aren't necessary any good.

I'm not arguing for them, I'm arguing against them. I am one of the only people.

You see, you can assume all kinds of things about people and they all turn out to be false.

I apologise for any incorrect assumptions I made about you.

Anyway, it appears that you're happy with what you've got. So why do you need to preach to everyone else?

I wasn't preaching. I made one comment and people were outraged, so it's turned into this.

But after all, who here doesn't like to mass debate?

@YenRug

Well, that's really odd then, because I thought your whole argument has been about..

how superior the graphics are on the PS3/Xbox360

Well, we know that much.

and why all these games should be on there, instead, and how much better they would be.

Is there anything the Wii can do that the others can't, bar the control system?

I only commented on the sales figures, because it's what really seems to irk you the most about this "inferior" gaming system (that loads of people seem to be enjoying playing), you're wondering why so many people would buy it in preference over your choice.

It irks me that a company which used to be so respected is now making games like Wii Fit and Wii Music. I don't like it, I don't have much individual power over it, and I don't have to buy it.

That still doesn't stop the Wii being woefully underpowered and the control system not being as good as it should have been in the first place.

"It irks me that a company which used to be so respected is now making games like Wii Fit and Wii Music."

Why? I say this as someone who owns the former and plans on buying the latter when it comes down to a more reasonable price.

@ schnide

I can see where you're coming from, I just think it's a defunct argument. You've made your choice based on your criteria and I understand that. Other people have done the same but you seem to really struggle with it. As this debate continues, I can see you trying to get your head around it but just aren't quite there, and heading down the I'M SHOUTING road ain't gonna help. I realised many years ago that trying to get people to change their minds about something based on my own personal criteria was pointless

I think 'The Last Broadcast' is the greatest album ever, I'm from Manchester, it came out when I was 25 and doing lots of drugs, it spoke to me, it wouldn't do the same for everyone. I think 'Goodbye Lenin' is one of the funniest films ever, other people would just see German with subtitles and run a mile. I chose not to buy an Ipod because I like to be able to drag and drop music, and copy back and forth from my PC easily. Others (many) disagree.

If I wanted to be able to play Fallout 3, GTA IV I'd buy a PS3. I probably will when I can justify a new TV as well, or in the unlikely event they drop the price and put the PS2 BC back in (i.e. around the time Gordon Brown solves the depression). But for now, the Wii has shed loads of games I play and more I haven't got to yet (especially as I ditched the GC pretty quickly).

Can you imagine if Nintendo had gone the same route as the other two in pursuing HD graphics? I think I'd have given up. It would be the most depressing, colourless generation ever. The bigger the differences between machines the better IMHO. True, we could do without the endless stream of horse whispering games and board game compilations, but I don't see the benefit in having another version of Fallout 3, or Kane and Lynch, or GRID on the shelves, however good or otherwise those games are

FWIW, I agree with you on ID cards (while ignoring the ridiculous comparison with Nintendo's trademark)

@merkdot
Found myself nodding my head in agreement a lot there

depends on the price -- if it were a bargain title I would buy it anyway because the idea is novel.

I'd agree with merkdot, as a very general rule Playstation owners are more casual, 360 more hardcore and Wii owners I wouldn't say are really interested in games at all. I've spent far too long on these forums today so if this stirs up yet another shitstorm with you then either bite your turn or call me some naughty names.

Killzone is hardly the Girls Aloud of gaming though.

Anyway, I'm hardly struggling. I made one single statement about an inanimate object and people responded by calling me a wanker. It launched into a debate and I'm justifying my position.

There's no ridiculous comparison with Nintendo's trademark and ID cards - it's explaining a principle and that principles matter on issues whether political or cultural. Patronise me all you like, but I'm not the one who has a problem with other people having opinions, and if people want to question mine I'll quite happily defend them.

"I made one single statement about an inanimate object and people responded by calling me a wanker. It launched into a debate and I'm justifying my position. "

By 'struggling' I was referring to your difficulty in understanding other peoples positions, you have yours, fair enough, and you argue it pretty well, but it's pointless. You're seemingly completely blind to the idea that you might not be 'right', that other people may not want the same console as you, for the same reasons you wanted it. You're still at it in this last one, re "Wii owners...aren't really into games at all". I understand why people want a 360/PS3 ahead of a Wii, which is why you won't see me barging into 360 game threads like you did with your first couple of posts in this one. You just either can't, or won't understand why anyone else would think differently. Comparing an unused patent to something as serious as ID Cards just makes you look frantic (and being honest, you've actually got more chance of influencing the latter).

It passes the time though

The question here is: "What makes a 'next-gen' console?"

Some people think that whatever the answer is, it does not include the Wii.
Let me speculate that what makes a 'next-gen'/current console is this: it inspires waves of argumentative dross from adults who should know better. (In particular, they should know better to leave their old Speccy/C64/Amiga/ST arguments in the playground, but because they've spent too much time playing games rather than growing up they can't let go of the old rivalries).

This means that, yes, the Wii is NOT a 'next-gen' console. The people playing it are, by and large, either too casual to even know that people talk about this shit online; too ex-'real'-gamer to actually care because they've broken out of this stultifying cycle of sectarianism; or are just fucking having fun rather than trying to find more evidence of tearing in Killzone 2 compared to Gears of War 2.


To me, the Wii is a current console because great games are being made for it right now, just like how some folk duo from Minneapolis are a current band because they're still touring or recording. I'm really looking forward to stuff like House of the Dead and MadWorld. "But those are genres that have been done before!" you might cry. So? Was Super Mario World shit because it was 'another Mario game'? (Yes, to a few extra-hardline Sega fans...) In response, you might shout that "the graphics are not HD". Let's go back and remake Bubble Bobble, the first GTA, or Space Invaders into HD. Do these suddenly become current gen games? Let's demix Gears of War into a HD text adventure with 3d screenshots as pictures. It's still HD. Is it current gen? I don't think you can define current gen in terms of graphics. Nor do I think you can say current gen is 'innovative', it's obvious that gaming is rarely so. So, what is it? I think you will find that my definition of "argumentative dross" holds pretty well in comparison to either graphics or innovativeness.

Call me a wanker for other people's opinions and I'll ignore you. Call me a wanker for having mine and I'll argue them out.. for as long as I find it interesting.

I understand why people read the Sun, think We Will Rock You is the best night out you can have in a London theatre, and why there's nothing wrong with buying Coca Cola. If seeming arrogant is the consequence of being discerning and not dumbing down, then you can accuse me of it all you want.

And incidentally, I don't find The Last Broadcast to be the best album ever, but it's better than any of that Oasis shit any day of the week.

"If seeming arrogant is the consequence of being discerning and not dumbing down, then you can accuse me of it all you want."

If seeming nerdy is the consequence of belonging to an established fan community and speaking Klingon, then you can accuse me of it all you want.

Just because you think you are being 'discerning' does not make up the flaws in your argument (see my previous post, just above yours). In what way is the Wii not current-gen?

I'd agree with merkdot, as a very general rule Playstation owners are more casual, 360 more hardcore and Wii owners I wouldn't say are really interested in games at all.

I never said this. 360 is exactly the same as PS3 in my eyes. Only XBLA saves it.

It's a current gen console with last gen processing power and graphics. Does that suit you better?

merkdot, I didn't mean to take your comments out of context - I used them as a basis for mine and built on it. Again, apologies.

You're missing the point again. I don't buy a game for it's graphics, but graphics allow a certain level of.. I've said this elsewhere. A 360 or PS3 can do better things on an SD or HD television. It's not just resolution and nor did I ever say it was.

I'd say that doesn't contradict it as long as they're not buying Sky purely because the Freeview signal isn't as good. What's with you lot making blanket assumptions? Graphics quality is not important to me, but the games that rely on it are. The Wii is not as capable graphically as the 360 or PS3. This is fact.

I know it is, I've never said it was otherwise and I knew that when I bought it.

I think you're splitting hairs saying you're demanding a certain level of graphics from games instead of demanding a certain level of graphics from consoles. You can't have one without the other.

I've played Wii Sports, Super Mario Galaxy, Mario Kart, Marvel Alliance and Splinter Cell.

Not familiar with the last two so I can't comment, but I like Mario Kart with the Classic Controller (and Nintendo give me this option in the same way as the PS3 gives the customer the option of using a SixAxis) and I really have no problems with Wii Sports and SMG. In fact, I never thought I'd end up finding Wii Sports Golf the most addictive out of all the sports games and it's because of the level of control that's offered to me. I remember pressing rubber keys on golf games on the Spectrum and remember playing them with the mouse on the PC and it was all a bit meh. Yet I find myself coming back to Wii Sports Golf two years later when I've got half an hour.

I understand why people read the Sun, think We Will Rock You is the best night out you can have in a London theatre, and why there's nothing wrong with buying Coca Cola. If seeming arrogant is the consequence of being discerning and not dumbing down, then you can accuse me of it all you want.

If the 360's and Wii's sales figures were reversed, what would your argument be? You would evidently still want the console with the 360's capabilities, would you say that x million people can't be wrong?

It's a current gen console with last gen processing power and graphics. Does that suit you better?

How about the PS360 are current gen consoles with last gen controllers?

When the next gen arrives and everything will have (more or less) converged, there won't be a problem. Or will there... if you have a 720 in the future which only comes with a Wiimote style control with an add-on classic controller you buy separately and dashboard which uses avatars, would you find this unacceptable?

the new HD systems by MS and Sony are little more than what a PC gamer might experience by upgrading their graphics card.

aside from a few nice little extra online features here and there, the improvement has really only been the move to HD, which does precisely NOTHING for gameplay.

"I understand why people read the Sun, think We Will Rock You is the best night out you can have in a London theatre, and why there's nothing wrong with buying Coca Cola. If seeming arrogant is the consequence of being discerning and not dumbing down, then you can accuse me of it all you want. "

I appreciate this, I haven't called you a wanker, arrogant or anything else. I don't think you are....except, actually thinking about it, there is arrogance in your belief that the way you think is the discerning way of thought, absolutely right and unquestionable. It still seems to be the case that you're pursuing all your arguments based on this and literally ignoring any kind of disagreement

"Wii owners I wouldn't say are really interested in games at all."

You're right, that's why I have two of them and 24 games in disc format alone on them let alone the dozens of VC and WiiWare titles.

Jesus wept.

@electrolite

Literally ignoring any kind of disagreement? I think you'll find I've conceded more points on here than anyone else.

Nevertheless, it's been good (mostly) sensibly arguing it with you.

@Sean.Aaron

I like how you edited out "as a very general rule.."

But anyway..

You're right, that's why I have two of them and 24 games in disc format alone on them let alone the dozens of VC and WiiWare titles.

Sean, what you do isn't something you can safely use to infer what the entire world does. This is a lesson best learned early, like before you learn to type on internet forums, so please - stop stating anecdotal evidence as universal fact.

As a general rule, you shouldn't attempt to pigeonhole a 45 million-strong installed base into one box.

Personally I believe that the Wii market is a complete mix of Nintendo hardcore/total casuals/'second-system' owners/collectors. Its universal popularity is its strength and its weakness, but its numbers are so strong that any well-produced and marketed 'traditional' franchise should do well, and we already know this is true from sales of Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Guitar Hero and Resident Evil 4.

As a general rule, you shouldn't attempt to pigeonhole a 45 million-strong installed base into one box.

That's why I said a very general rule, and if you need me to clarify it let me go as far in guessing that the majority of those owners will be the total casuals you cite. That's unless you're trying to say that Nintendo have unearthed millions of new hardcore gamers - but until we have proof, we can agree to disagree.

@schnide

Nice 'mostly'.

I'm ducking out of this one, I think Merkdot's articulating what I wanted to say better than I was. Have a good weekend and that

Personally, I could not care less about anyone unearthing 'new hardcore gamers', I think I've already covered my contempt for the group that calls themselves this. It's effectively a group of users that buy a lot of recycled/rehashed Western-focused games that were more than likely perfected on PC 10 years ago.

Personally I think that niche gaming is far more important.

@schnide

Sean, what you do isn't something you can safely use to infer what the entire world does.

Well most of your posts seem to have been along those very lines.

I'm going to finish off posting a link to an interview with Maddox, because he's always right...

That interview was so right on I just read it a second time for entertainment value.

@Dan234

Are you going to back that up? Regardless, I was giving Sean's advice back at him, but thanks for contributing.

And that interview's a joke, right?

@schnide:

"That's why I said a very general rule, and if you need me to clarify it let me go as far in guessing that the majority of those owners will be the total casuals you cite. That's unless you're trying to say that Nintendo have unearthed millions of new hardcore gamers - but until we have proof, we can agree to disagree."

The problem with your "general rule" is that the Wii still has the most software sales of the three systems, so if Wii owners [i]generally[/i] didn't care about games this wouldn't be true.

Kind of makes everything else you say difficult to take seriously.

Wow, kinda crazy this debate you guy´s got going on. Did you guy´s see the IGN article about a Silent Hill remake coming to the Wii and PSP exclusively, Have you guy´s seen the trailer for Monster Hunter 3,Madworld,Overlord:dark legends,Muramasa,FF:crystal chronicles("something")bearer,Broken sword remake(best game ever),dead space extraction, fatal frame 4, cursed mountain,dragon Quest X....trust me ive got more.

Anyway the Wii is easily justifiable as your sole system for even the most hardcore.
It´s just a matter of taste in games, for me GTA4 doesn't even come close to Broken Sword: shadow of the templar directors cut(still cant get over them doing a remake.....and i also regularly jizz in my pants thinking about Monster Hunter 3.