Criticism of Sonic "warranted" - SEGA

By Oli Welsh Published 7 August, 2008

Even the marketing man says so.

SEGA of America's marketing boss Sean Ratcliffe has (almost) conceded to GameDaily what the rest of the world has been shouting at him for some time: that Sonic games have been mostly terrible since the first couple.

"Some of that criticism is probably warranted," Ratcliffe said. He added that the company is taking the "first steps in making sure the quality is right" - belated steps, some would say - this year, with new console title Sonic Unleashed, as well as BioWare's Sonic Chronicles on DS.

"We definitely recognise that a franchise that has been going as long as Sonic, you really have to put a huge amount of effort in to make sure that you maintain that quality, and arguably a disproportionate amount of effort," he said.

"We're constantly looking at innovation. We can't just stand still with Sonic; we've got to be looking at different ways to develop the character, different genres, and so on," Ratcliffe said, perhaps unaware that many fans feel that innovation is exactly what went wrong in the first place.

To be fair, he's right about the standing still.

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About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

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Comments (40) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Zomoniac #1 4 years ago

    You fucking idiot. You do NOT need to develop the character or have different genres. You need Sonic. THE character. Lots of well designed levels. A platformer. Lots of speed. A working camera. No exploration hub areas. No new characters (you may use existing characters from pre-2000 Sonic games if need be). Music that isn't shit. No 30-second load times after EVERY LINE OF DIALOGUE. A mechanic that doesn't make you take an hour to get from standing to running speed, and make you come to a complete stop every time you touch ANYTHING.

    Make this game and you'll make squillions. Then PM me to find where to send the royalties.

    Sonic 360 was fucking diabolical, you got that much right. But one of the primary reasons is because you felt the need to 'develop the character' and 'innovate' and do genre-changing bullshit. Just play Sonic Adventure, play through the Sonic mode 300 times and make a game like that, but longer and modern-er.

  • vpin #2 4 years ago

    Hopefully they can finally get it right with Unleashed.

  • nickthegun #3 4 years ago

    You need to sack whoever thought a huge cast of shit characters was a good idea and hire someone to take over from the dribbling retard who they get to program the camera.

    Actually, sod it, hire me to hang around design meetings and hit people with a rolled up copy of The Sun every time they say something stupid.

    'So...we want everyone to watch the cutscenes. Lets make them unskippable'
    *SMACK*
    'Uhm....ok...how about we introduce Sonics girlfriend? A wise cracking, pink Beaver?'
    *SMACK*

  • the_dudefather #4 4 years ago

    How to make a good sonic game: have someone who doesn't work for sega make it

  • viper_h #5 4 years ago

    Why do you think only the first couple of games were decent? I really enjoyed S3&K, despite it being one game split into two to garner more money. I felt that was the best Sonic game.

    All the 3D ones have been shite though. Couldn't stop laughing at that shitty Sonic 360 demo.

  • bad09 #6 4 years ago

    \o/

    It only took 9 years to sink in, now lets see what Unleashed brings (although I sense history repeating there)......

  • the_dudefather #7 4 years ago

    @viper_h

    I only really liked sonic 1+2, then they seemed to go downhill a bit

    really enjoyed sonic adventure 1+2 at the time though

  • paul_haine #8 4 years ago

    As long as every future game features Big the Cat in some way then I'm happy.

  • Zomoniac #9 4 years ago

    FROGGY!

  • disussedgenius #10 4 years ago

    "We're constantly looking at innovation."

    FOR FUCK'S SAKE STOP!!!!

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #11 4 years ago

    I think the thing that Sega don't seem to realise is that expanding the different genres that Sonic games are in is fine, AS LONG AS THEY'RE IN SEPARATE GAMES.

    Super Mario Galaxy doesn't make you play through 15 minutes of Paper Mario before it lets you have a go of a platform level does it? And New Super Mario Bros doesn't turn into Super Smash Brothers at nighttime.


    So a Sonic RPG that's exclusively an RPG made by a company of RPG experts is a good thing. The saviour of fast 2D platforming sonic games where half the time is spent as a 'were-hog' scrolling beat-em-up, is NOT.

  • peterfll #12 4 years ago

    I liked the first two Sonic Adventure games, despite their myriads of faults.

    But the posts of Zomoniac and nickthegun summarise the issues and resolutions perfectly.

  • AgentCool #13 4 years ago

    Pretty much all of the Mega Drive Sonic games were good, especially Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles which, when combined, created the ultimate epic Sonic game. That uber-game had top notch levels, 14 emeralds to collect and a comprehensible story with no crappy dialogue required whatsoever. I liked the Dreamcast Sonic titles too but some of the levels like the Knuckles 'search' stages were boring as hell.

  • Zomoniac #14 4 years ago

    I quite liked Knuckles' search stages in SA1. The levels were small and all the shards were actually findable. No level ever took more than about 10 minutes. In SA2 it seemed they made all the levels a hundred times the size and made the shards physically impossible to get. It took me well over an hour to do the last Rouge level, and I never completed it as the 'good guys' because the Knuckles mine level was broken. I found one shard, the other two I had flashing red in a "you're less than 2cm away!" way, and no amount of digging produced anything, I have no idea where they were but it certainly wasn't where it was telling me they were.

  • barnard666 #15 4 years ago

    FROGGY!!!!!!!!!!!

    (this thread should justr be filled with people shouting froggy) - I actually quite liked sonic adventure 1...strike me down - for I deserve it. I keep the demo of the xbox game on my hard drive, I think it could be one of the worst games ever made.

  • Zomoniac #16 4 years ago

    Why do you deserve it? SA1 was/is a masterpiece. The best 3D platformer ever made.

  • DUFFKING #17 4 years ago

    They can't even get 2D sections right anymore though.

    The 2D sections of Unleashed look ridiculously boring.

  • Eighthours #18 4 years ago

    Please just have a game with only Sonic in it. The other characters are abortions against humanity.

  • Lemming81 #19 4 years ago

    Just copy the Mario 64 template. Maybe if you start with the right stuff, you won't fuck it up Sega.

  • SeesThroughAll #20 4 years ago

    Just copy the Mario 64 template. Maybe if you start with the right stuff, you won't fuck it up Sega.

    Don't listen to him.

  • Zomoniac #21 4 years ago

    Just copy the Mario 64 template. Maybe if you start with the right stuff, you won't fuck it up Sega.

    Or even better copy the SA1 template. Sonic is nothing like Mario. That's like telling Forza to copy the F-Zero template.

  • OllyJ #22 4 years ago

    Same thing has happened to my mate Crash bandicoot, he's turn all Kratos :(

  • disussedgenius #23 4 years ago

    Or, even better, copy the Sonic 2 template...

  • gimo80 #24 4 years ago

    No it's more like telling Animal Crossing to copy the Bioshock template. A Sonic game using the Mario 64 template would be sooo slow, and dammit I want the speed back! The original Sonic Adventure was actually pretty damn sweet (but really dated now), but I would rather just play as Sonic throughout, and NOT as Amy Rose, Big the Cat, E102 BLAH DE FUCKING BLAH.

    Froggy.

  • Zomoniac #25 4 years ago

    I don't think it's that dated. I played SADX for Cube on my Wii a few months ago. It is still a superb game, almost entirely because the levels are all perfect. The design has a magic spark that all the others have completely lost in some sort of endless search for 'attitude'. I actually enjoyed all the character playthroughs in that game (Amy's was the worst, but was only 3 levels), and even didn't mind the story, because it was all superbly put together. SA2 shifted the focus from good levels to trying to go all 'badass', throwing in Shadow and legions of robot soldiers. And it was shit.

    Edit: forgot to say FROGGY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/08 @ 12:15

  • gimo80 #26 4 years ago

    Well I have to say that Sonic's levels are still great fun to play (especially Windy Valley, I absolutely love the last section with all the loops), but the adventure bits are really out of date now. When I first got the game in 1998 (ish) I remember being absolutely blown away by how much freedom you have (plus I was much younger and easily impressed), but there's actually nothing to do in the hub sections! Not really many secrets some of it was really poorly designed...LIKE THE JUNGLE. But overall, it still has a special place in my heart.

    FROGGY.

  • Artemus #27 4 years ago

    Unleashed was looking quite good until I watched the werehog gameplay sections. I mean why?

  • Zomoniac #28 4 years ago

    The Adventure bits are, and always were, shit. I was 14 at the time and thought they were shit. But once you've done them once they can be ignored completely, they merely serve as a way to get into the levels (and in that context, I quite like them, there always was something just a bit wrong with straight level progression to me), they take about five seconds now (apart from that locating the gold icons one to get into the lost world, must've finished the game 20 times now and can still never find them!).

    FROGGY!!
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/08 @ 12:47

  • FFS #29 4 years ago

    I don't have a problem with Sonic or all of the other characters as long as they have relevant abilities.

    The problems are as follows:

    -'Attitude' - make him more like the 2D days. Just a blue guy that runs around. He doesn't need personality to be appealing. In fact his personality puts me (and everybody over 11 years old) off.
    -Biggest one of all is level design and attention paid to games. They keep coming up with new gimmicks but can't drop things that need to be dropped (see above and below). Dodgy collision detection, camera physics and even controller responsiveness. What's really depressing is that games like Sonic Adventure that were almost great aren't, because they fell short in certain key areas.
    -Personal gripe: getting hit = lose all rings. Makes games too easy plus it defeats the point of collecting rings. Loads of games have to collect 100 of something but don't lose them l when they get hit. Get an energy meter or something.

    WE DON'T WANT STORY, WE WANT GOOD, CLEAN FUN.

    EDIT: basically what the 1st poster said. Music as well. And you don't need dialogue. Take the premise of the 2D games, turn it into 3D and get rid of ring hits. Mario managed to drop power-up loss for the 3D games. Oh yes I am comparing you to Mario, because it's a success.

    FUCKING LISTEN TO THE FANS YOU STUPID, UTTERLY USELESS BASTARDS.
    Edited by 2 at 07/08/08 @ 13:07

  • Nithron #30 4 years ago

    Zomoniac: Why aren't you in Sonic Team?

    Y'know, the Sonic/Shadow stages in Sonic Adventure 2 basically got the whole 3D sonic thing down perfectly. They were awesome. Why not just make an entire game with those kinds of levels? It can't be that bloody hard, surely...

  • TheTingler #31 4 years ago

    Doesn't explain Sonic and the Black Knight. Yes, Sonic with a sword - just the development he needs.

  • Zomoniac #32 4 years ago

    Nithron: Evidently it is hard for them, as even the Sonic stages in the 360 game, usually the only saving grace in these things, were broken beyond belief. I played the 360 game up to the ice snowboarding level thing. I then proceeded to lose 6 lives within the first 30 seconds of the level due to the controls not working. It's like they forgot they actually put a snowboarding game into a 3D Sonic before that worked just fine. And following the loss of all said lives, I found out it doesn't have autosave, and it dumps me back half an hour, telling me that once more I have to wrestle the camera enough to locate 5 runaway children, find out which man is the chief, and find a boss and defeat him. With 56 30-second loading screens between each event. Or I could scream at it, sell it very quickly and forever resent it for showing up on my profile with a big 0 next to it. Which I did. I am a rubbish gamer, and know it (although I do have 119 emblems from SA1), but every one of the zillion times I died during Sonic I felt was in no way my fault. Jump and hold up to jump forwards. Or jump and hold up to jump forwards halfway, at which point the camera changes and up becomes in-the-direction-of-the-bottomless-pit-of-death. And that wall at the edge of the platform? That's to stop you falling off. Except it's a MIRAGE! HAHA! Fooled you! You just walked through a wall and will plunge forever into the dark hole of Sonic Team's shitness.

    Only one thing can save Sonic now...

    FROGGY!

  • Ranger101 #33 4 years ago

    Just to let you know guys, that SEGA have read through this thread and taken your comments into consideration.

    The next Sonic game will now be a collection of family-party mini-games exclusive for the Wii, and will include a brand new character called Snoopz The Awesome Dog, who's cool and edgy,a nd at the same time a friendly rival to the blue hedgehog we have all coem to love."Casual" gamers will love it, and children from all ages will be able to enjoy the new control interface that only requires a single button to play!!! "Core" gamers will be able to associate with the heritige they grew up with.

  • Ryze #34 4 years ago

    Sorry, but I'm done. I have no more faith in Sega.

    They need to be bought by a company who knows what they are doing, then need Yuji Naka and co back to make a decent Sonic game.

    I've no confidence in their product anymore.

    Their best bet is to pass their entire back catalogue to Sumo Digital to revamp and re-release one by one.

    Starting with Daytona USA.
    Edited by 1 at 07/08/08 @ 15:00

  • Pasco #35 4 years ago

    I would also like constant 60fps and Sonic to shut up. It don't even need big budget games. Just make sequels to the first three Sonics on Live Arcade with hires graphics and good level design and I will buy it.

  • Skywise #36 4 years ago

    @nickthegun: please apply for a job with Sega! They're in need of people with common sense.

    'Let's not repair the broken bits but obscure them by new gimmicks'
    *SMACK*
    'Let Sonic talk a lot so people will like him more'
    *SMACK*
    'Let Sonic Team make the game'
    *SMACK*

  • MaskedDave #37 4 years ago

    I liked Secret Rings

  • NegativeZero #38 4 years ago

    I used to be a huge Sega fan. Now I don't even like to admit it.

    It has been nearly a decade since the last remotely good Sonic game (and I'm stretching the definition of the word 'good' to mean 'not a steaming pile of shit').

    They seem to show absolutely no interest in giving some decent games another shot, either. No sign of a new Jet Set Radio. Not a peep about a new Panzer Dragoon. Shenmue III is never going to happen either. No, they're too busy churning out godawful Sonic games.

    It's not as if it would even be that hard for them to get a Sonic game right either. Quite simple, really. Take Sonic 3, make new levels that play the same, replace the sprites with 3D. Leave out all Sonic's shitty friends. You're allowed to include Tails and maybe Knuckles.

  • Zomoniac #39 4 years ago

    I liked Secret Rings

    Fucking Sega employees infiltrating our threads...

    They seem to show absolutely no interest in giving some decent games another shot, either. No sign of a new Jet Set Radio. Not a peep about a new Panzer Dragoon. Shenmue III is never going to happen either. No, they're too busy churning out godawful Sonic games.

    Much as I utterly detest and resent Sega, can you really blame them? They made the best console ever, gave it Shenmue, Sonic Adventure, Crazy Taxi, JSR, Virtua Tennis and all the rest, and it very nearly sent them under, and forced them to withdraw within three years and ditch the console game completely. And while they were giving us love, the customers were giving them fuck all, they watched their ship sink while everyone went off and bought cheap licensed cash-in after cheap licensed cash-in. And ultimately they are a business, and if making next-gen Shenmue and JSR games is going to send them bankrupt, they're not going to do it.

    They even gave us...

    FROGGY!!!

  • viper_h #40 4 years ago

    Sorry, Dreamcast as the best console ever? AHHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHA.