Criterion defends Burnout demo

By Tom Bramwell Published 2 January, 2008

Tells you to calm down.

Criterion's Alex Ward has responded to feedback on the recent Burnout Paradise demo defending certain elements that have come under fire.

"Everyone breathe, relax, and remember, it's only a demo - we think we made the best demo released all year - you don't see many other games getting an online enabled demo up on both systems before launch," the outspoken developer wrote in a Christmas message.

Some of the response to the demo has focused on the lack of a retry button once you fail a task (something we pointed out earlier this year), changes to Crash mode and the size of Paradise City itself.

"The lack of retry really isn't an issue," says Ward. "You may disagree, but we don't feel it is and retry would have introduced loading into the game, which we didn't want to do." As for comments on Crash, he's less sympathetic. "Hmm, again, none of you have played it yet... It's not Crash Mode, it never was - it never could be. There was no way we would have created a linear and limited experience in a massively open game that is about freedom, expression and seamless play. Again, try it for yourself and make up your own mind. Don't let the internet do it for you."

Apparently gamers shouldn't be in such a rush to compare it to other games. "For everyone constantly comparing the game to other games rather than see the game for what it is - all I can say is that this game isn't those games," he says. "It isn't TDU that's for sure, even though many of you seem to swear that it is (and you haven't played it either). TDU is one of my favourite games - (the 'Millionaire Challenge' was a real highpoint) but it isn't Burnout and Burnout isn't TDU."

Even comparisons with other Burnouts are apparently wide of the mark, or ill-informed. "As to those who can proclaim from a taste of the demo that Burnout 2 was the best game (always nice to see all those GameCube owners on the internet who haven't played the game since B2!) or that B3 is the better game - again, I can only smile. Those of us who have made the games dearly love those games but we're confident that if you love those games too then you will love Paradise," he writes, adding that Paradise is a "way way better game than B2 or B3. At least that's the way we feel about it."

Sadly though, despite obviously paying a lot of attention to what's being written online, Criterion won't have time to react to it in code. "The demo was made after work on Paradise was completed," Ward writes, "so no, we won't be using internet 'feedback' to tune the game."

Burnout Paradise is due out on PS3 and Xbox 360 on 25th January.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (110) Latest comment 4 years ago

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  • domoslaf #1 4 years ago

    "The demo was made after work on Paradise was completed"

    No fix for frame-rate drops on Xbox 360 then? Oh well, one less game to worry about, sounds almost like a good thing these days.
    Edited by domoslaf at 02/01/08 @ 11:03

  • asphaltcowboy #2 4 years ago

    I don't think the lack of retry will be a problem in the full game - clearly when you fail a race, there will always be a new event nearby for you to try - obviously something that couldn't be communicated in the demo due to the lack of game world space. I will be buying it at the end of the month!

  • Charlie_Miso #3 4 years ago

    da interwebnet iz not happy.

    tell it to fuck off.

    thats what you did? OK then. Back to work.

  • jonsaan #4 4 years ago

    Burnout (1) was my personal fav. The soundtrack was sublime. However, I really like the new demo and am looking forward to the full game.

    Also, for those people who prefer old versions. Just play that one. I still play burnout 1 on the cube. I don't need it remade!

  • seasidebaz #5 4 years ago

    i liked the demo! thought it was very nice.

    and while i'm not a moron, i do think that (through rose-tinted glasses) b2 was a very very good game. i think it was just the freshness of the entire thing at the time. i would say it was my favourite, but then every burnout game i play to death, and b2 had no online, but it did have that cops n robbers mode...

    oh well roll on release day!

  • miiiguel #6 4 years ago

    Didn't like the demo.

    I won't buy it, that's for sure.

  • AcidSnake #7 4 years ago

    @frod:
    I don't want a B2 remake...I just want the planet to admit it was the best one!
    :)

    To sum it up, I have played the newer burnouts and B2 remains the best, but hey, that's just IMO...
    I'm giving paradise the benefit of the doubt though...

  • groovychainsaw #8 4 years ago

    I got bored in the demo pretty quickly. That had never happened to me before in a burnout game. I want to be able to dip in and out, not trawl round for ages trying to figure out where to brake so i can trigger an interesting challenge bit...
    Also, you swiftly learn to ignore the directions and create your own routes, which i guess is the idea, but if I'd wanted burnout map simulator (TM) i would have made that myself at home with a map and compass and some hot wheels cars....
    Edited by groovychainsaw at 02/01/08 @ 10:21

  • Penguinzoot #9 4 years ago

    I love each new Burnout game for what it brings to the table.

    Meanwhile morons just want Burnout 2 remade perpetually.

    I agree with both of these sentiments completely. However, I am having real problems liking the demo.

    Nothing to do with the fact that I preferred B2 or B3 (I don't really, although I did really like Revenge, against the general tide of opinion), or the fact that my expectations may be set incorrectly. I'm just having real problems liking the demo. Maybe I should just try harder.

    Sorry Criterion, I realise this is probably my fault, and not yours, and I know that you all think this is the best iteration of the game yet, but I shall probably pass on this one. Sorry.
    Edited by Penguinzoot at 02/01/08 @ 10:27

  • zoidberg #10 4 years ago

    "something we pointed out earlier this year" said the Eurogamer editor...

    the correct phrasing would be "last year" shouldn't it?

  • OnlyMe #11 4 years ago

    I thought the game was great, although it feels more like a Need For Speed than Burnout these days - just with crashing. What I didn't like though, is not being able to skip the "cutscenes". I hope for the love of god that's only for the demo.

  • DB2k #12 4 years ago

    not got this yet but the problem for me was how Burnout turned from a racing game where you avoid people into bumper cars where the aim is not to race, but to bash. It made it shit. And yes.. I wa a GC owner that loved B2..

  • wakka2k5 #13 4 years ago

    in my opinion i didnt mind the demo but when i put it on when my mates were around they all put it down after a short while sayin they wudv rather played revenge so i suppose again its a matter of opinion

  • oreillymj #14 4 years ago

    Please tell me there's an option to turn off that annoying twat of a 'DJ'

    Also options so I can lower the volume. While I find the engine roar quite pleasing, I don't think the neighbours do. Most games are too loud at the volume my surround sound system is set to. And before you ask, it's set correctly for DVD's, Music etc.

    Why do they have their internal volume control set to full. Surely mid-way would be correct?

  • Nobuo #15 4 years ago

    I stopped playing this due to the lack of retry. Can't make the message any clearer than that.

  • Beano #16 4 years ago

    I loved the demo and couldn't see the "nothing to do" - problem... after all, just a small demo wth only three events

    I don't mind the lack of retry either, but it should be possible to easier to find back to the starting point by using way-points or something similar.

    I will be buying this game for sure... for PS3 which is the (slightly) better version ;)
    Edited by Beano at 02/01/08 @ 10:37

  • kangarootoo #17 4 years ago

    I rather liked the demo, but I take issue with this sort of comment.

    ""The lack of retry really isn't an issue," says Ward. "You may disagree, but we don't feel it is"

    The gamer is your customer. If gamers say the lack of restart is an issue..... then its an issue, FACT. If you as the dev disagree, you are wrong.

    Thats how I see it anyway :)

  • Rodster #18 4 years ago

    A typical EA product that tries to do too much and succeeds at very little. My biggest complaint with the demo (360) is it lacks focus. I'm still scratching my head and asking what is this burnout supposed to be? In other words is it supposed to be a mix of Need for Speed with a mix of Test Drive Unlimited?

    Needless to say I got bored of the demo and was confused at what I was supposed to do in the game. Once again my vote goes to Burnout 2 on the PS2. I also liked Burnout 3 Takedown and Revenge and even the recent Burnout Dominator which tried to relive the past glory of Burnout 2.

  • nickthegun #19 4 years ago

    The problem is while not wanting to sacrifice your design ethos is all very well, when I fail a challenge, I dont want to have to drive back to where I started it, load screen or no.

    The determination to not stray from the sandbox design is very noble, but after the 10th grudging retrace of your steps, it will probably get very tired very quickly.

    Still, at least they seem to have sorted the AI out, which is one in the win column, I suppose.

  • barnard666 #20 4 years ago

    well said kangarotoo,
    Lack of retry is a problem for me, no doubt paradise is great, its just not strictly burnout to me anymore, its more like crackdown with some burnout stuff thrown in and no ability to get out of the car.

  • J.C #21 4 years ago

    Criterion are slowly falling under the influence of EA imo.

    Criterion's fate was sealed, when they sold there soul's to EA games.

  • That_Happy_Cat #22 4 years ago

    "Here's some advice... if you like something, buy it. If you don't, don't.

    DJ Tossbiscuit, with some patronising advice, signing off"

  • Beano #23 4 years ago

    LOL

  • GitSomE_UK #24 4 years ago

    No retry, No Driver in the car seat, No Pedestrians in a sprawling city... no purchase.

    Having to remember to drive back to a point on the map after driving miles haphazardly to do it all again is bollocks.

  • Derblington #25 4 years ago

    "Criterion are slowly falling under the influence of EA im(completely uninformed)o."

    Fixed that for you.

  • paulf #26 4 years ago

    i applaud them for not wanting any loading screens, but the lack of retry is something that did grate with me when playing the demo. However the online mode made up for it, being lots of fun.

    I'm looking forward to the full game as I think it could be a cracker, however not burnout as we know it, time will tell I suppose

  • Beano #27 4 years ago

    "Fixed that for you."

    Thank you - saved me some time ;)

  • brainbird #28 4 years ago

    As far as I remember, no Burnout had pedestrians (or in-car drivers for that matter) and all took place on city tracks, didn't they? Did that stop you from playing?

    Burnout was always good, even with traffic checking in Revenge, and I'm confident Paradise will be good, too.
    Now for that annoying ad in the sidebar...

  • bivith #29 4 years ago

    Why is a load screen worse than having to drive back to the beginning?

    Also, did TDU have load screens when you restarted an event?

  • penhalion #30 4 years ago

    Criterion don't seem to get the fact that people love burnout 2 because it didn't contain any computer cheating. It was a pure skill game. If you managed to outrace your rivals by 10 seconds, then you won the race by 10 seconds!

    In burnout 3 and above, they introduced rubber banding. This meant that it was virtually impossible to beat the computer when using the faster cars. No matter how fast you went, they would somehow aquire a mega boost to overtake you. This made the later levels simply no fun to race. One crash and you were screwed dispite this rule clearly not applying to the computer!

  • Scrumhalf #31 4 years ago

    I kind of agree with Criterion - in some ways. Yes, not having a retry in a city where there are *only* three things to do is annoying - BUT it is not going to be like that in the full game.

    I suspect there will nearly always be something near the end of a race to do back in roughly the direction you want to go?

    I think we all need to wait and see for the full game to see what kind of impact it makes?

    As for not buying a game because there is no driver in the car is madness, talk aboout cutting off your nose to spite your face!

  • repairmanjack #32 4 years ago

    "try it for yourself and make up your own mind"

    ...um, isn't that what folk are doing? This criticism stems from the demo, no?

  • muscleblade #33 4 years ago

    Burnout Revenge for 360 is the only Burnout title ive played. Its also one of my favourite games of all time and the best racing game ive played for sure.

    I was afraid that the open city approach would ruin the game. After playing the demo i think it did.

  • Moz #34 4 years ago

    Well it's quite simple for me no retry option, ME NO BUY THE GAME!! the game will probably still sell well but this is one burnout fan that they've now lost.

  • penhalion #35 4 years ago

    @scrumhalf

    There isn't a re-try in the full game either. The difference is that each junction will have an event that can be unlocked as you win previous events. This means that you actually don't have to traven too far to find something to do.

    I'm not sure what the complaints are about. I'm only pissed that once more the cheating rubber banding seems to be in the game. Didn' they learn from need for speed that it's simply not necessary!

  • moggsy #36 4 years ago

    Demos rarely fairly represent the full game unfortunately. They give you a small taster and that's it. People should wait to play the full game before making a judgement.

  • Scrumhalf #37 4 years ago

    @penhalion

    Re-reading my post did not make it clear - that was what I was trying to say :D

  • penhalion #38 4 years ago

    @Scrumhalf

    no prob. I have a rotten cold so I'm probably squinting as I read everything :)

    As I say, the only thing that annoyed me was the rubber banding that makes winning later races near on impossible. This is why everyone sites burnout 2 as the definitive burnout. You raced for the line and provided you didn't crash you could win by quite a way. You could also loose the lead by crashing too many times so it was a fair game.

    In burnout revenge, I've had the fastest car in the game and still seen the computer pulling away from me at the start line. I then boost and the computer shoots past me again like I was standing still. It makes the later races feel like a joke. I can almost garantee very few people persevered beyond about the 5th or 6th levels.

  • Beano #39 4 years ago

    "Frame rate drops... WTF?? Best get yer 360 checked out, sounds like its on its way out?"

    Nonsense - the 360 demo do have some framedrops... very few and barely noticeable (or worth complaining about) but they are there.

  • Sir_TimAlot #40 4 years ago

    @Derblington

    haha, replace the word "Criterion" with "Alex" and the word "EA" with "Fiona"
    I really wanna chime with how i feel on the subject but don't fancy getting sued and imprisoned.

  • Artemus #41 4 years ago

    Lack of retry WILL be an issue when you've only got a few scattered events to complete.

  • BadBoyBonner #42 4 years ago

    The latest Burnout demo - is making NFS:Most wanted look appealing again!

    Not sure I like the way the series is going - same could be said for NFS - but clearly they have to try something different.

    Since Criterion sold out to EA I must say that their driving output has been focused on not cannibalising NFS - which was probably one of the main reasons they were bought - as EA do not seem to be in a great hurry to capitalise on selling Renderware licenses.

    In fact Epic should be sending royalties to EA every time a UE3 license is sold!

    Shame.

    While the DJ sucks it does add a level of polish and life to what can seem very drab - and that kind of life and energy seems to be the only thing the Flatout series is missing - obviously GTA radio stations and Dj's must be hailed as genre defining.

    But guess most people just stream their own music from their PC or HD.

    *pet hate for the BOP demo is having to sit through the massive advert every time I start it - which has resulted in me playing far less than any other demo that I have enjoyed as much. I had taken to starting it and flicking over to sky while slightly annoyed with it but simply can;t be arsed with it. Hope it is not a sign of things to come but suspect that it is - from EA at least.
    Edited by BadBoyBonner at 02/01/08 @ 11:53

  • bdc #43 4 years ago

    If this twatty dev makes the game, he's gotta be prepared to take the flak for it instead of being a whiny bitch about it.

  • nickthegun #44 4 years ago

    Rubber Banding isnt exciting, arcade or not. I know we went through this in the last burnout comments section, but its a terrible copout that never feels natural.

  • BadBoyBonner #45 4 years ago

    Kangarootoo - "The lack of retry really isn't an issue," says Ward. "You may disagree, but we don't feel it is"

    The gamer is your customer. If gamers say the lack of restart is an issue..... then its an issue, FACT. If you as the dev disagree, you are wrong.

    Couldn't agree more.

    I think some of these dev's have been watching too many Gordon Ramsey style programs where they think they are some kind of master chef cooking up an amazing unique recipe.

    Fact is most restaurants only need customers in thousand's.

    Developers, although highly creative (sometimes) need to face the reality that they even with a unique product are closer to Super Market managers - they need to sell to Millions not thousands.

    Maybe that's what they are trying - hence the people willing to write about it on a gaming site could hardly be considered the mainstream masses; but then BOP could hardly be considered a casual game.

    Criterion seem to have fallen under EA rule - they are no longer making games that are the pinnacle of gamers games - but ones that are aiming for broader appeal.

    However what is actually happening is that they seem to be ending up with a game that fans of the original series are starting to dislike - and in addition they are not pulling in new fans at the same rate that they are loosing the old ones.

    Thing is EA is still winning with only Flatout giving much of a challenge to twin pronged attack of BO and NFS.

    BOP feels like NFS:MO with a better engine - and the lack of a driver is now starting to seem weird - another plus for Flatout.

    Edited by BadBoyBonner at 02/01/08 @ 12:52

  • NthSimulachum #46 4 years ago

    It just didn't feel like Burnout. 3, 2 or Revenge. The game (at least that shown off by the demo) seems to have abandoned the arcade silliness and bright colours for a drab city and a DJ I want to defenestrate. Finding the quickest route yourself through the city? Slow feeling cars? Boo. Burnout Theft Auto for the lose.

    *Sticks to Sega Rally*
    Edited by NthSimulachum at 02/01/08 @ 12:11

  • Freek #47 4 years ago

    The lack of retry could verry well be just as anoying in the full game.
    Sure at the start you have lots of events but as you progress through there's going to be less and less of them.

  • monkie_king #48 4 years ago

    plus the city is going to be way bigger, with longer races, so a much longer commute back to the start line.

  • brainbird #49 4 years ago

    This is ridiculous.
    If you think the "Retry" option is the most important feature in this game, you probably never really liked Burnout anyway.
    Missing drivers and pedestrians? Please. Was never in any Burnout game.
    Rubberband? Yes, I don't like it, either. Does it kill Burnout? Hell, no.
    The "EA is evil" mob is losing its mind.

  • bdgr #50 4 years ago

    "The lack of retry could verry well be just as anoying in the full game.
    Sure at the start you have lots of events but as you progress through there's going to be less and less of them. "

    Umm, still won't be too much of a problem - you see, as in every burnout game, you can still race the races you've done before to see if you can do it better - just because you've done a race doesn't mean its going to vanish into thin air and you never get to play it again.

    Racing your own route reminds me of the old Italian Job arcade machine with the minis and the bomb...

  • miiiguel #51 4 years ago

    I don't dig the "EA is evil" crew too, but that didn't make me enjoy the demo either.

  • BadBoyBonner #52 4 years ago

    As for 2007's best 360 demo.

    The Crackdown Demo pisses all over the BOP demo all the way from the top of the Agency Tower

  • NewbieZilla #53 4 years ago

    When it comes to Burnout games, I don't really like comparing them. Up till Revenge, I enjoyed them a lot. Revenge was terrible.

    I haven't played this one, will get the demo when I get my 360 back though i'll probably have the EG review for reference at that stage.

    Am I the only one who thinks he comes off somewhat egotistically?

  • mazk #54 4 years ago

    ''Don't let the internet tell you how to think! Let us do that instead! ''

    Do one criterion. You've been trying to ruin burnout ever since number three. Well, now you've succeded.

  • BadBoyBonner #55 4 years ago

    Newbie Zilla

    "Am I the only one who thinks he comes off somewhat egotistically?"

    No your not, see my comment

    "I think some of these dev's have been watching too many Gordon Ramsey style programs"

  • gaselite #56 4 years ago

    I wasn't aware there was such a pissy backlash to the demo online but good on the chap for sticking to his guns on behalf of his team and the game they've made.

  • Anthony_UK #57 4 years ago

    Artemus - Lack of retry WILL be an issue when you've only got a few scattered events to complete.

    +1 although the game will still be awesome!

    One thing that always bug's me is that how Criterion got away with Burnout 1 as good as it was, because if you've played it, you would realise it is a shameless copy of the arcade game 'Thrilldrive' not the most well known of games I know, but i've never seen it mentioned before!
    Edited by Anthony_UK at 02/01/08 @ 13:15

  • BadBoyBonner #58 4 years ago

    Anthony_uk

    Blimey your not wrong.

    Thrilldrive was released by Konami in 1998 - some 3 years before Burnout graced our screens.

    It even looks like it.

    Links below.

    [link url=http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=2407&image=1
    ]http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&...[/link]

    [link url=http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&db=videodb&id=2407&image=2
    ]http://www.arcadeflyers.com/?page=flyer&...[/link]

  • erp #59 4 years ago

    Well that all sounded disgustingly arrogant to me.

  • skx #60 4 years ago

    I played all the Bournout Games before and this Demo is a awesome Burnout experience.

  • Tim #61 4 years ago

    Prediction:

    When the next Burnout game is released, there will be a retry option of some sort, and Alex Ward will be saying "Yeah, sorry, we really got that wrong in the last game. We've learned our lesson."

  • Anthony_UK #62 4 years ago

    Badboybonner/ Thanks for the links!

    I just read on a youtube link that Criterion still have a Thrilldrive arcade machine in there offices, how true that is you'll never know!


    For Burnouts 2+ fair dues, but for the original, I'm still suprised Snake & co didn't come knocking!!!

  • BBIAJ #63 4 years ago

    Those of you saying that Burnout never had any drivers anyway, have quite clearly never played Burnout 3: Takedown, as they are sat in the car before, during, and after crashes as clear as day!

  • bad09 #64 4 years ago

    Personally I don't like Burnout games (I like a little realism) but my girlfriend loves to play them and when she tried the demo of paradise she thought it was rubbish compared to the others. From the sounds of it this guy is just pissed no one likes the new game.

  • BillyBrush #65 4 years ago

    I'd love to work for him...

  • BadBoyBonner #66 4 years ago

    BBIAJ

    In support of you here is an image showing the cars did indeed have drivers as we all knew in BO3 - and to those that didn't shame on you!

    [link url=http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/822/1077638616.jpg
    ]http://media.teamxbox.com/games/ss/822/1...[/link]

  • harlekein #67 4 years ago

    If they are not prepared for negative feedback, perhaps they should have thought this game through more before turning the best racing title around in a weak Need for Speed ripoff.

  • BillyBrush #68 4 years ago

    rolling a car in that demo is greatness..

    lack of retry...bad...can you quick hop to events? see that kinda info mighta helped Alex, art of war sonny art of war

    Methinks it'll sell millions and we will all realise videogame banger racing..is ART

    is there an in car view? if not please steal the one from PGR and put it back in development (see Army of Two team to ask how this is done)





  • groovychainsaw #69 4 years ago

    The rubber banding was a little silly in the last couple of the games, the last race where you had to drive for about 15 minutes at full speed without crashing once was pushing it a bit (hint: save your boost, then the CPU car doesn't use boost either - it's still quicker, but you have a better chance of smacking it into the wall every time it breezes past), but at least you could just hit restart after you've driven for over 15 minutes and the cheating rubber-band bastard AI slips past you on the last corner, eh?

  • BBIAJ #70 4 years ago

    Heh, cheers BBB!

  • bivith #71 4 years ago

    "When the next Burnout game is released, there will be a retry option of some sort, and Alex Ward will be saying "Yeah, sorry, we really got that wrong in the last game. We've learned our lesson." "

    Kind of like how Crash modifier's were introduced into Burnout 3, completely breaking Crash junctions, and then quietly removed from Burnout 4, ( but then they had this ridiculous "golf swing" start which was shit, and again quietly removed from the 360 version ).

    EDIT: But then they've removed Crash junctions altogether, which must mean they are shit which is were my theory falls apart.
    Edited by bivith at 02/01/08 @ 14:39

  • Agent_Llama #72 4 years ago

    Not purchasing this 'til I can try a full copy. Didn't like the demo much, and the idea of backtracking to retry an event sucks. I want to be able to retry it immediately, to maintain the momentum. Knowing I'm faced with a trawl back through the city only to fail it again does not motivate a player, and will surely detract from the experience.

    I agree with the comments towards the Criterion guy - if your customer says it's broke, it's broke. His arrogance is not endearing.
    Edited by Agent_Llama at 02/01/08 @ 14:42

  • nickthegun #73 4 years ago

    "Lack of retry...bad...can you quick hop to events?

    No. That would incur a loading screen.

  • Les #74 4 years ago

    "There was no way we would have created a linear and limited experience in a massively open game that is about freedom, expression and seamless play. Again, try it for yourself and make up your own mind."

    I did and it sucks. It's not fun and a waste of time to drive around a city to an event when this could have been done via a traditional menu like in Burnout 3.

  • monkie_king #75 4 years ago

    bdgr: GTI Club! One of my favourite arcade games of the 90s, I'm still heartbroken that Konami never did a console version of it. Hopefully it'll be emulatable before too long, the graphics were about PS1 standard.

    The aforementioned Thrilldrive was the spiritual successor to GTI Club, but I was never really a fan. And while it does look a lot like Burnout 1, it actually doesn't play all that similarly.

  • Pirotic #76 4 years ago

    so people who thought the demo was shit are 'wrong' then? sounds like the guys covering his own arse after the demo resulted in more negative PR than positive.

    lack of a retry button is friggin annoying, I don't really care if it would go against some design ethos putting one in, if it would of made the game more enjoyable for most of the players, it should be included.

  • ronuds #77 4 years ago

    How dare you all for criticizing Burnout! You'll buy EA's crap and like it!

  • kentmonkey #78 4 years ago

    The internet's Kentmonkey has responded to feedback on the recent Burnout Paradise demo, defending the people who raised concerns about certain elements of the game.

    "Criterion breathe, relax and remember, it's only feedback - we think you made the most accomplished but ultimately flawed demo released all year - you may not see many other games getting an online enabled demo up on both systems before launch, but then most of them have the ability to not narc the gamer off when they fail a level" the outspoken cybermonkey wrote in a New Year message.

    Some of the response to the demo has focused on the lack of a retry button once you fail a task, changes to Crash mode and the size of Paradise City itself.

    "The lack of retry really is an issue for a lot of potential buyers" says monkey. "You may disagree, but these people pay your wages and have been devout followers of the game for many years. It would have introduced loading into the game, but then this is a game, not real life. When you crash into a car at 110mph in real life, you die, you don't respawn. If realism and seamless play is suddenly so important, perhaps they ought to start making simulations instead". As for comments on Crash, he's even less sympathetic. "Hmm, we may not have played it yet but they've already told us that it's not like the Crash Mode of old, arguably the most fun aspect of Burnout (especially with friends). Apparently they couldn't have created a linear and limited experience in a massively open game that is about freedom, expression and seamless play. That's fine, but how about incorporating it into a game that is about fun, exhiliration and dip in and out play?"

    Apparently gamers shouldn't be deterred to compare it to other games. "Comparing a game to another game in terms of game style and gameplay quality is a perfectly reasonable thing to do when those games are from the same genre. It does appear to be edging more towards a TDU style of gameplay and people should consider this before making their purchase. It may not be the same game, but it would definitely appear to be more comparable to that then say something like Project Gotham Racing or even the old Burnouts".

    As to those who can proclaim from a taste of the demo that Burnout 2 was the best game (always nice to see Ward attacking all those GameCube owners on the internet who haven't played the game since B2 - due to EA and the developers deciding not to release any updates on that platform!) or that B3 is the better game - I can only nod and agree. The demo was apparently developed after the full game was finished, so this is pretty much the best representation of the finished product that we've ever had in a demo. Those who have made the games clearly think Paradise is the better game, but many of the people who downloaded the demo didn't think so." The now salivating Kentmonkey added that "Criterion and Ward expect people to pay to play a game that based on the demo they feel is not the type of game they want to play. It is lacking the options and game modes that they wanted and they have done nothing, either in the form of the demo or in their arrogant responses, to suggest that this is the type of game that I want to pay money for, nor are they the type of people I want to receive my hard-earned money. I would rather support those developers that take on board feedback and develop a game for their target audience, and not resort to arrogant remarks when their product is challenged."

    Sadly though, no matter how much the loyal customer-base complains about the lack of features or rubber-band AI, Criterion won't have time, or the desire, to react to it in code. "Apparently the demo was made after work on Paradise was completed," Kentmonkey writes, "so they won't be using internet 'feedback' to tune the game. That's 'feedback' in quotation marks for added arrogance."

    Burnout 2, the genre-defining pinnacle of the series, is available in most stores for £4.99 preowned and is backwards compatible.

  • GuitarWolf #79 4 years ago

    Did anyone else's Xbox crash everytime they tried to go online in this?

  • nick_f Verified Senior Producer, Microsoft #80 4 years ago

    I expect Paradise will be the best-selling Burnout yet, despite being a "next-gen" exclusive and leading on the 'ailing' PS3 platform.

    Given that it's Alex's job to make hit games that people want to buy (as opposed to endlessly bitch about on internet forums) he'll probably have the last laugh.

    Anyone want to bet against Burnout Paradise ending up in the #1 all-format slot come end of January?

  • Gl3n #81 4 years ago

    /adds Alex ward to the wanky pile of devs bucket, along with peter molyneux and jeff minter

  • Syrette #82 4 years ago

    Give me the option to turn off that DJ and I may think about buying.

  • miiiguel #83 4 years ago

    "Anyone want to bet against Burnout Paradise ending up in the #1 all-format slot come end of January?"

    Will that make people who don't like its features feel bad or something?, I wont buy this, but I hope he laughs a lot, be happy and have lots of kids.
    Edited by miiiguel at 02/01/08 @ 17:35

  • BadBoyBonner #84 4 years ago

    Monkie_king

    just watched this on youtube

    [link url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRKzna-64IQ&feature=related
    ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRKzna-64...[/link]

    and it does seem like a very heavy influence of Burnout for me.

    Plus loved the Gti game

    Although most of the time I played I was smashed at the pub!

  • monkie_king #85 4 years ago

    Oh, I agree that it's very close in concept, and I'd be surprised if it didn't 'inspire' Burnout, but in terms of actual feel it's not really the same game.

    From what I recall, it actually only runs at 30fps for starters, which means that ironically Burnout has a more arcade-like feel. And from what I remember, the handling is a bit stiff and it's not such a fast game (this is getting on for 10 years ago though, so my memory may well be cloudy).

  • PastyMuncher #86 4 years ago

    I loved revenge its a game you can just slap in and play using just your wits without having to think too much, the linearity meant you could concentrate on driving and not fucking map reading. This open world stuff just doesnt work in paradise the demo has left me disapointed. I played Midnight Club years ago and paradise feels more like that. I was looking forward to this, but i think i'll pass.

  • Feanor #87 4 years ago

    I think Midnight Club II had big arrows pointing at the next turn, and Paradise won't have that helpful feature.

  • monkie_king #88 4 years ago

    In fairness, Feanor, I think that's what the blinking street signs are meant to convey, though actually being able to make out the correct turn in the oncoming rush of grey concrete is something of a challenge unless you know where you're going anyway. The slower paced GTI Club was better in this regard.

    I've actually just remembered what pissed me off more than the lack of restart in the Paradise demo: you can't quit/drop out of an event. If you totally mess up a race, take a wrong turning, fall off the freeway, lose your stunt multiplier etc., you can't just drive away and start doing something else like you can in, say, Crackdown.

    No matter what you do, the timer keeps on ticking and you can't start another event without trawling all the way to the race's finish line. And then all the way back to the start to try again.

    I don't see why they could have had events just sensibly time out if you've obviously stopped competing, without breaking immersion. In fact, trudging over to the finish line breaks the immersion anyway by showing you a little cutscene to tell you that you lost.
    Edited by monkie_king at 02/01/08 @ 18:16

  • harlekein #89 4 years ago

    "Anyone want to bet against Burnout Paradise ending up in the #1 all-format slot come end of January?"
    If Transformers: The Game can top the chart despite it being widely recognised and identified as a piece of junk, then I'm quite sure Burnout Paradise will top the charts because of the name, the marketing and some people have actually said they enjoyed the demo. I guess if this is your first taste of Burnout after following Need for Speed that's explainable. But if you played ANY of the previous games you'd see why Burnout is a failure on many levels.

    I agree with kentmonkey all the way.

  • beastmaster #90 4 years ago

    Well, first time I'm going to have a go at EA, for no good reason other than I feel like it. Lack of retry in Burnout. Lack of a pause button in Deep Space. What's next? Lack of game in game? Oh, Assassin's Creed has already done that ;-)

    Not to keen on the demo at all but this is the first Burnout game I'll wait to see what the scores on the doors are, before I go out and buy (or not).


  • swisstony #91 4 years ago

    Every Burnout has innovated. The devs make the game they believe in, and the game they think takes insanely fast aggressive racing forward with new fresh ideas.

    They could have made Burnout Revenge 2, another set of circuits, another set of shortcuts, a few new car models, some new crashes.

    Or Burnout 2.5, another set of circuits, a few new car models

    Or Burnout 3.5, another set of circuits, a few new crash models

    But they don't. They take it apart and rethink it each time. It's risky, they lose some fans they gain some fans but if you've got any creativity in you, or you've ever sat in an Art Class you'll be told the best stuff you can do comes from what you believe you should do.

    Jesus, I can imagine a big web form with 'put down the features you want in the next Burnout and we'll put them all in'. Can you imagine the sprawling pile of shit that would be?

    I loved Half Life 2, I'm not going to whine if Valve produce something different next time, I'll just replay Half Life 2, or Burnout 3, or Unreal Tournament or whatever else I enjoyed for what it was.

  • doriangray #92 4 years ago

    Yeah you're right Arbiter, people shouldn't be allowed to criticise games unless they've personally made a critically praised game themselves. just like how film critics can't have an opinion unless they've made the equivilant of citizen kane first.

    There's defending your creation, and then there's sounding like a twat. To announce that having no restart in a racing game isn't a problem, and so the people that did have a problem with it (the majority of the people that played the demo) must be stupid isn't respectful to the people buying your games.

    You talk about respecting the people creating the games we play, but that respect goes both ways.

  • Retroid #93 4 years ago

    Well, I really liked the Paradise demo (360) and have had hours of fun with it, driving around with a few chums and we've all (that i know of) put the game on pre-order.

    Mr Ward sounds like a bit of an arrogant twunt with some of his comments, mind :/

  • lucky_jim #94 4 years ago

    I just haven't enjoyed the demo of Burnout Paradise. I wanted to, I really wanted to, as I've loved every Burnout game so far and recognised that (once I got used to the changes) each one has been better than its predecessor. But like quite a lot of other people, I preferred racing around tracks to this free-roaming thingumejig, which just does nothing for me. I've had far more fun from the Sega Rally demo, and if I'm picking up an arcade racer anytime soon, it won't be Burnout Paradise.

  • the_dudefather #95 4 years ago

    @Crofto

    the DJ is probobly the biggest reason I diddnt like the demo

    "Remember, winning isnt everything........NOT!"

    jesus christ

  • kangarootoo #96 4 years ago

    @Arbiter

    You need to calm down a bit.

    "Plainly put: Show some fucking respect."

    I don't even know what to say to that. Any dev that speaks up in public should get some balls big enough to take critisism from any source. I'm sure Alex can take it, so why are you getting your nose all out of joint?

    If you are a dev yourself, I could maybe understand why you are getting tetchy, but I'm afraid I would actually have to just say "suck it up, accept that its the business, get a thicker skin". I do.

    Gamers have an absolute right to say what they think of any game, because gamers PAY THE BILLS. They don't need to be able to make games in order to critisise them (as you suggest), because they PAY FOR THEM.


    "The alternative is games designed for/by committees of internet twats..."

    Utter rubbish. You suggest that its a binary choice, either ask no one for feedback, or ask everyone and let them make the calls. There are of course many many more possibilities in between.

    I was never suggesting that gamers should be able to say exactly what they want in a game and that their requests should be included without question. That is indeed design by committee, which no one here is advacating. But taking feedback from gamers, analysing it and responding to it, is part of quality game production. I actually know that Criterion do respond to customers feedback (and its already been discussed how features have changed between versions as a result of such feedback), but you seem to think they shouldn't?


    Getting back to the subject at hand, I just have to wonder whether anyone said (when discussing no retry option) "won't that annoy people?" and what the response to that question was.

    P.s. seriously, who gives a f*ck if there is a driver model in the car or not. I can't believe anyone who sites that as a deal breaker was every really going to buy this anyway.

  • BadBoyBonner #97 4 years ago

    Kanaga

    Agreed right down to your p.s.

    For which I'd add - that surely nobody sees it as a deal breaker - but simply asks - why would you take out the driver models? and in addition - in taking out the driver models - why have the drivers seat as the focal point of slow pans around the car which accentuate the lack of an avatar?

    For me it seems to be ANOTHER oversight and something else that would have surely showed up in testing-opinion-feedback-loop just like the restart button.

  • beastmaster #98 4 years ago

    It's pretty simple really. Us gamers don't like being told what is good and what isn't. Mainly because what we are usually told is good or groundbreaking is in fact a gargantuan bog-rocking turd the size of a submarine.


  • zedzee #99 4 years ago

    Pardon me for asking this, but shouldn't the demo at least reflect what the finished article will be like?

    What's the point of a demo if it's way off the mark, no where near what the finished game will play like and so on?

    This is more so when the demo angers fans of a series, such as Burnout and seems to provoke disappointment and disillusion more than anticipation and excitement.

    Criterion are saying 'wait and play the full game'. Well, in my humble opinion, perhaps they shouldn't have bothered with the demo and just waited to release the full game at the end of the month. It seems to have backfired and alienated many fans, rather than boost their interest in pre-ordering/buying it.

    If the demo was done after the full game was finished, why isn't it as (presumably) as polished as everyone is hoping the game will be? I mean surely they'd have that Retry option and the frame-rate would be sorted and there'd be more of an obvious feel as to what you need to do and how to do it in the full game, right?

    Not unless the full game still has no Retry, drops frames and at the final moment they delay the PS3 version...SURELY NOT?!!

  • NewbieZilla #100 4 years ago

    "Not unless the full game still has no Retry, drops frames and at the final moment they delay the PS3 version...SURELY NOT?!! "

    Actually, they've said they'll not change a thing in the game so the demo is pretty much what you'll get.

  • captain-future #101 4 years ago

    Obviously the Burnout dudes should make better non-customer-confusing/misleading demos?

  • Sir_TimAlot #102 4 years ago

    The ESRB and PEGI rating given is always affected by things like having drivers inside the car for racing and crashing and pedestrians on the street. Maybe they wanted to keep it as low as possible. Still looks kinda weird though when all the tinted windows are broken but you are still able to drive your car around with no sign of life inside.
    Edited by Sir_TimAlot at 03/01/08 @ 08:40

  • monkie_king #103 4 years ago

    They discussed the driver model's absence on one of the Burnout podcasts, and basically said that they didn't want to have to model the driver being flung out of the car or all mangled up inside. I can agree with that, Burnout's a freewheeling arcadey "blue-skies" kind of franchise, you don't want the grim reality of horrendous bodily trauma intruding into that.

    It does look dumb when the windows break, though.
    Edited by monkie_king at 03/01/08 @ 09:49

  • GitSomE_UK #104 4 years ago

    Hmm they can at least have a fella strapped into his bucket seat with helmet etc. and his arms flailing off the wheel should there be a crash.

    The crashes just don't seem right especially when the camera is pointed at the drivers seat. Other Burnouts have had a driver why not this?

    As for the pedestrians well it's such a big city, it's more a ghost town and that detracts from the atmosphere again.

    Other Burnouts were not free roaming so you could forgive no peds as it appeared as though you were on predefined race circuits so wouldn't expect them. In a free roam city, like it or not there are peds. Games have had this for years GTA, Jet Set Radio, Crackdown, Carmageddon etc. etc. all managed to include peds to set the atmosphere of a city.

  • miiiguel #105 4 years ago

    I would have pre-ordered it. But I tried the demo.

  • BadBoyBonner #106 4 years ago

    Monkie_king

    "they didn't want to have to model the driver being flung out of the car or all mangled up inside"

    Well that presupposes that they had to do either, which as the developer in charge clearly did not have to.

    Does anybody really expect someone to be flung from a car wearing a 5 point harness? Nope, unless your going for the novelty angle. I have yet to seen any impact in BOP where the drivers seat is annihilated.

    Could have easily put a driver in and injected a little humor or sense of wellbeing with having the driver doing a thumbs up as the camera pans round, or mock wiping of the brow on the helmet, or tapping his fist on the side of the helmet then giving thumbs up to show he's fine, or un-crumples the car by pushing the steering wheel off his chest with cheesy D.J. announcing that he hasn't seen a medallion (the wheel) that big since Saturday night Feever, etc, etc I am sure you get the idea.
    Edited by BadBoyBonner at 03/01/08 @ 12:23

  • kangarootoo #107 4 years ago

    @BadBoyBonner

    Kanaga? Thats a new one ;)

    I take your point. I was just having a tongue in cheek rant (after my genuine rant) and should probably have included a ;) or two.

    I don't know why they decided not to include a driver model. I agree its a negative (I think, tbh I don't really have strong feelings either way), but some people in this thread said "no driver, no sale", which seems excessive. If there are other things wrong with the game then fair enough, but if its purely the absence of a driver model that is putting someone off buying this... that just seems a bit petulant to me.

  • SomaticSense #108 4 years ago

    "The lack of retry really isn't an issue,"

    The bloke sounds like an arrogant git. Not far off a Uwe Boll level of arrogance and disregard for their core audience.

    Something like this is purely down to opinion and the individual needs of certain gamers, who incidentally are the people these devs are making the games for. If the majority of gamers don't like it, then by making a comment akin to "we are right, you are wrong" is just plain arrogance.

  • OhYeahOhYeah #109 4 years ago

    Everyone on here that has been bad-mouthing this Alex Ward character needs to stop. I mean, isn't it obvious you should feel sorry for the poor sod. He's the type that when stung by a hornet, would stick his middle finger up inside the nest & then feel surprised when his entire arm is covered in stings. His level of delusion lies somewhere between comical & downright tragic.

    Let's analyze some of the tell-tale patterns of a person in need of help, shall we?

    This person responded to valid criticisms of a game demo by telling the players to wait for the already finished version that has not addressed any of these design flaws. Umm...Setting yourself up for disgruntled backlash isn't exactly an indication of logical though. If that isn't enough, telling people to "calm down" is a clear sign of projection. ---Methinks thou doest protest too much.

    EA needs to find a special little workstation for this special little game developer, complete with padded keyboard for when he bangs his head against it after reading something negative about his products. They should also install a set of blinking lights to distract him from responding directly to every criticism.

    It is our responsibility to help those less fortunate than ourselves!

  • TitusCrow #110 4 years ago

    all i can say is thank fuk that dev doesnt work at epic, he would have topped himself after visiting the ut3 forums for a few days :)