Creator defends Holocaust DS game News

Imagination is the Only Escape is set in Nazi-occupied France during World War II, and casts you as a young Jewish boy who uses a fantasy land as an escape from the atrocities committed around him.

Somewhat derivative of Pan's Labyrinth in theme, no? Certainly sounds similar.

I completely support this guy.

I also completely support this guy.

Sounds more like a videogame version of Life is Beautiful to me, and that film managed to rub enough people up the wrong way.

EightHours, yeah I heard the working title was "Stan's Shabby Plinth".

He's got a point. Can't help but feel this is the publisher trying to cheap publicity, though, given that the game hasn't even been made yet.

I'd like to join the "I completely support this guy" group.

Well, except him saying that WWII shooters are sick,

I know this is inappropriate, but something about this guy just winds me up.

I can't out my finger on it.

But being realistic, how well does he expect this game to sell?

Whats MORE likely to happen is that game does get completed, no one buys it, and only goes further to proving that games are not an art form.

And as for giving all the proceeds to Darfur, i hate these people that boast about what they're going to do for charity, it just sickens me.

This is a pointless flash in the pan story

I wrote this in a previous thread, but as this is the most current one I'll copy myself here.

.....

I also agree (edit: with comments saying the editing of the screenshot was a bad thing). I don't normally comment on quality of journalism, but editing that screenshot without saying it had been done is misrepresenting the content and fundamentally unprofessional.

If some kind of mention had been given that would be fine. I don't personally object to EG censoring the content of their site. It is specifically the editing of content without reference being given that is unacceptible.

If the content was supplied to EG edited, that should have been mentioned. And if the content was already edited but EG were unaware of the fact, mention it now and we can all get off your backs.


On the subject of the game itself, I tend to think that because a story can make for hard "listening" is no reason not to tell it. And in fact sometimes it is exactly the reason to tell it. From what I have seen for far, nothing about this seems to glorify the subject at hand. In fact it appears to be trying to communicate the facts surrounding the holocaust in a way that perhaps makes it more accessible to people who would otherwise remain uninformed.

I view that in general as a good thing. Good people hiding from unpleasant things allow bad people to do what they like (badly phrased, but you get my drift).

No doubt the mainstream media will see this title and think "a game cannot be serious, so a game about this most serious of matters must be bad". That is a real shame.

"Because you are going to use Nazi influence on child behaviour. Which is wrong, it cannot be defined. The effect of the holocaust on any age of any gender and any race is the same."

Can you explain that a little better please? I don't quite get what you are saying. Thanks.

I agree Kanga ... otherwise we can dismiss "Maus" as a comic - or "Grave of the Fireflies" as a cartoon.

It is a good thing for gaming to address serious issues, but I do worry that this subject may just be a little too emotive and a little too downright unpleasant to get the balance right. I hope I'm wrong.

I do have the slight concern (as a parent) that you may have a game aimed at ten year olds with additional content aimed which might be suitable for 14 year olds. I'm not suggesting people should be hidden from this (Well done again eurogamer) but certain issues can be traumatic - and education has to be handled carefully.

@knocker

I agree that who this game is to be aimed at is a difficult issue. Regardless of how important it is to educate people of certain things, I agree that at a certain age a child will be incapable of really understanding the weight of the matter presented to them, but be quite capable of being disturbed by some of the details.

I think how this is eventually (if at all) presented, and to whom, is a bridge to be crossed at the appropriate time. I would hope that worrying about how to answer that question would not cause anyone to dismiss the project entirely (I know you aren't suggesting that, but some would).

If the game is done right, and if his intention is really to make a good game, that is able to teach an important piece of history to a younger generation, he has my full support.

@Xiphos

Oh come on, you still haven't explained your point. I'm not picking at you, I just honestly want to understand what is behind your thinking.

Stating clearly that you believe the creator is fucked up does not explain to me WHY you think they are fucked up.

Is it the potential age of people playing the game that you have issues with? Is it that you simply don't believe a game is the right medium in which to discuss the issue of the holocaust?

I'm not sure why it matters whether someone was born in the period in which this game is set. Given how far back our recorded history runs, all of us weren't born for the vast majority of it. That is surely no reason to avoid learning about it, how it came about, and how it might be avoided in the future?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't the government just started sending kids to Auschwitz, so that they can come back and tell all the other kids about it, with the worthy aim of ensuring that kids don't forget about the lessons of the holocaust?

How is that different to this?

@Saladin

Mainly because I suspect the holocaust memorial museum may have out a little more thought into it than a guy who has watched Life is Beautiful and read a few wiki pages. I could be entirely wrong ... but as Nylkran pointed out, there are a couple of big 'if's' in there. Jumbo sized ifs !

Reading his blog at http://www.destructoid.com/blogs/lucbern... I'm just feeling a little concerned !

Hellfire lockyuk2000 .... I'm kind of stunned anyone would even try to draw a parallel between the crimes.

/takes a deep breath

See xiphos when you say things like "The effect of the holocaust on any age of any gender and any race is the same."
It confuses people. Because you know, the effect on say an aryan german schoolboy, was entirely different to a boy of the same age who happens to be jewish. I think you meant meant the effect "now" is the same, which I would still disagree with - but at least makes a tiny bit of sense.

I guess your argument are just too damn complicated for my brain.

@ lockyuk2000 ... ah - I see you equate teaching people about the holocaust, with promoting judaism. I think I know where you're coming from now.

That blog does indeed leave me a little disturbed. A bloke who feels using a Nazi avatar in an online shooter unambiguously glorifies Nazidom is not, I feel, one for fine gradations...

That said, I support any attempt to bring such topics to mainstream attention.

@xiphos

Perhaps if you didn't have the writing skill of a six year old there wouldn't be any problems trying to understand exactly what you're trying to say. I've read each of your posts three times and I'm still not sure where you're getting at. Punctuation might have a little something to do with it.

@Kon

Chill out dude. I am guessing english is not Xiphos' first language, in which case his english is a damn sight better than my attempts at any other language would be (and I am guessing the same goes for you as well).

That doesn't excuse his stroppiness mind you.


If you don't want to explain any further Xiphos then thats fine. Maybe we are all imbeciles and thats why we don't get your points, maybe not. Either way it seems you are missing out on the opportunity to expand our understanding of this subject by adding your views to the discussion in a way we can grasp. Never mind, lets consider it a closed matter.

Xyphos speaks in riddles

The blog is quite revealing...

I'm not sure what this game can accomplish though...Surely a game must remain fun if you want people to continue playing? Otherwise you're better off with books about the holocaust...
I'm not sure, but I think the audience for this game is very limited...

If it were a GUI to an encyclopedia about the holocaust it could have worked, but right now it doesn't look to me to be educational enough...

Still, it's not finished...

Neither is it mine, but I would like to understand where he is getting at. Telling me to fuck off for expecting a better explanation of something he is trying to say is a little too rich.

I have to say, reading the blog link and associated discussion thread, its a REAL pity the way that Bernard conducts himself in the discussion thread.

Whatever your point of view, however well founded, simply insulting people who disagree with you is childish. Full Stop.

Holyier than thou attitudes are always suspect too. Fanatasism, even in the name of good, is not a good thing. Reminds me of the mayday riots, when all I see is a bunch of people that care first about smashing McDonalds, and second about saving starving children. Serving your own anger is a weakness, no matter how injust the thing that made you angry in the first place.

I still remain open minded. I just hope that Bernard's penchant for sticking his foot in his own mouth does not feature too prominently in the discussion of whether his game should get a release. I don't think he does himself any favours with immature outbursts like that.

@Kon

I agree. Two wrongs don't make a right though :)

Am I missing something? This game hasn't been banned... what is the guy talking about? He says himself that it's not even finished!

@lockyuk2000

With one breath you say,

"I'm going to stop here, because this argument will devolve into subjective claims and not focus on the facts (just like the proposed game)."

and then follow it with the wholly irrelevant statement...

"I will also submit that I'm an Atheist and think anyone that believes in a God has a fragile grip on reality."

I'm an aetheist too, but I don't mention it because its not relevant to the subject at hand. Its like you are annoyed with Knockers so you decide to insult him based on his faith?

I understood your point about this specific game being propaganda (rather than all games about the subject) so I understand you being a bit ticked off with Knockers comment.

Don't know if I agree with you though, as its non-trivial to determine whether anything about the holocaust being bad is pro-judaism or not. Judaism is pretty fundamentally tied to the core subject of the holocaust, so you can't reasonably deride something as pro-judaism just because it focusses on the suffering of that particular racial group. It was BECAUSE people were Jews that they were targetted by the Nazis, so it is kind of extremely relevant.

You ask a bunch of questions in your first post that are valid, but its a little early to cast our opinions into stone. And in the absence of sufficient information to answer your OWN questions, you appear to assume the worst so that an opinion can formed.

Does that seem a fair observation?

@Xiphos

"then I sincerely hope that communication fucking evolves pretty soon because I really hate qwerty on a Monday morning and I just spilt coffee on my shirt I spent 20 minutes ironing which evokes me to not bother using the shift key 90% of the time"

That bit was quite funny. I still don't really get you dude, but I don't dislike you :)

Mate.

"Knockers: ah - I see you equate teaching people about the holocaust, with promoting judaism. I think I know where you're coming from now.

I don't think you do, but great job with that very mature, smarmy comment. "

I was simply quoting *exactly what you said*. It put the rest of your comments in context.

Simply that if *you* believe the purpose of the game is to promote judaism - it sort of explains your other comments. On the other hand I was quite impressed to see in the screen shot he mentioned the deaths of Roma and disabled children as well.

It is important to put historical facts in context. But your examples don't do that. I wasn't ridiculing you for questioning the holocaust ... I didn't see anywhere where you did.

So - anyway, I'd like to know.

Why "THIS individual" isn't independent enough to make this game ?
(I get this one now, you said "This game is being spearheaded by a jew". I suppose Schindlers list is shit for the same reason?).

What inaccurate facts he includes ?

What the fuck you being an atheist has to do with anything ?
(I get this one as well . . . I eat FAR too many bacon sandwiches to be jewish)

"Let's hope this game never gets released, because this back and forth is all that will come from it."
It's precisely "this back and forth" that makes a game like this worthwhile. I hope you reply . And I promise not to be sarcastic, smarmy or ridiculing in my response.

Just for the record guys, the shots we have of this game aren't edited in any way; they were grabbed directly from Luc Bernard's myspace page - http://www.myspace.com/lucbernard

"I'm an aetheist too, but I don't mention it because its not relevant to the subject at hand. Its like you are annoyed with Knockers so you decide to insult him based on his faith? "

That would be a bit f'ing pointless. I was bought up a catholic - and am now an atheist.

:-D it's a conspiracy I tells ya !

"Whats MORE likely to happen is that game does get completed, no one buys it, and only goes further to proving that games are not an art form. "

Not wishing to open up the big ol' can o' worms (for the record I don't think games are an art form per se, rather they're experiences which may include components which could be considered works of art), but since when was the value of something as an art form determined by the amount of people prepared to buy it?

@xiphos

Now I'm even more confused. Never mind, at least that post about the coffee made me chuckle.

Just let me say that I really just expected to understand where you were coming from with your stand on the matter in hand. Not having lived through the conflict or having any relatives that did I'm always interested in hearing opinions from others that might.

So..., be more careful with your coffee from now on :)

Fair enough (about the image). Thanks, the explanation's appreciated, mouse.

He does in fact have those same shots on his Destructoid blog that knocker linked to as well.

@mouse - thanks also ...

I'm quite relieved that it wasn't EG. Wonder why he would censor his own images, unless it was the less-than-pc terms 'handicapped' and 'gypsy' - but then reading his blog, he doesn't sound like the sharpest stick in the box of sharp sticks.

@mouse

Thaniks for clarifying. I retract all previous accusations :)

@Xiphos

I'm starting to understand. I think our difference is that I am a bit more hopeful.

I should say that don't see learning from history as mainly a way of convincing future potential bigoted murders to be good people, but rather as a way to give everyone else the skills to recognise said bigoted murders before they get too powerful. That is probably naive, but I like to be optimistic about these things :)

@Arbiter

I agree with you in the main, BUT I don't think Lockyuk2000 was doing what you are accusing him of. I don't recall him saying the holocaust didn't happen, neither did he say that there were any positive aspects to it whatsoever.

I also agree that,

"To cast doubt on the validity of someone dealing with this grievous subject because they are Jewish, is like telling a person of colour that because they are black they aren't fit to see both sides of the debate about slavery!"

but I'm not sure he was saying that either.

As for,

"Lets get something straight, there is no "dialogue" or "discussion" to be had about the Holocaust. It happened."

Maybe this is semantics, but of course there is discussion to be had about the holocaust. To suggest that the only disucssion that can be had is about whether or not it happened (and therefore all discussion is invalid) is just nonsense.

We are having a discussion about it right now, and nobody except yourself brought the issue of whether it happened or not into that discussion.

I think every single person on this thread agrees that it happened, and I would hope that every single person on this thread agrees that it was an awful thing (far more awful than any hyperbole from me can really do justice to, so I shall leave it at "awful") and that those responsible were equally awful.

You seem to be creating a strawman to hit, when no-one here actually disagrees with you on the things about which you are most angry.

Sounds inspirational in terms of plot at least! We should be worried about war games that distort reality like events in the not to distant future that haven’t occurred yet! Call of duty 4! Though a fantastic game, I found the plot distasteful! I would put Halo as being the worst in this category demonstrating a future where war is ongoing! And bloody unrealistic at that! I for one would very much like to see WW2 game being realistic to point that it is 18 cert, with plots from real campaigns’.

@Arbiter

Ok, I don't want to seem like I am defending every part of the statement you quoted, because I'm not. So I'll break it down to give my own take on it.

"You know, I'm not in support of this. Will it explore the events preceeding World War 2? Will it look at why what happened, happened?"

They seem like valid questions to raise.

"Or will it just be a way to promote Judaism? You know, Nazis - Bad, Jews - Good;"

That bit is weird. When it comes to "promoting Judaism", I'm not even sure that is a bad thing, especially in the context of the holocaust. The particularly weird bit is the "nazis bad - jews good" part. The answer kind of semes obvious to me. Nazis are bad becase of what they do and what they believe in. A Jew is someone who is jewish, and simply being jewish says nothing about your actions, and therefore says nothing about whether you are good or bad. I suppose what I am saying is that whether someone who is jewish is good or bad is entirely subjective, whereas whether a nazi is good or bad is an easy question to answer. They are bad because they are a nazi.

I suspect what lockyuk2000 is suggesting however is that not every man woman and child who fought on the side of germany should be written off as an evil bastard who should burn. Some of them were ignorant, some were misinformed, and to some degree we shouldn't be entirely surprised if otherwise normal people sometimes do inhuman things in inhuman situations. I don't mean the people who carried out experiments and ran concentration camps, the people in positions of direct power and control knew what they were doing and I would happily kick each of them in the head myself. The guy Lockyuk2000 referred to though, who his grandfather writes to, was just another soldier who perhaps didn't know what he was fighting for. I don't know enough about that particular situations, so all I can do is suppose on the possible options.

I should add that I sincerely hope that is all Lockyuk2000 was referring to. If he is suggesting that the people directly running concentrations are "not all bad", I think he is nuts. I don't think that is what he was saying at all though, I hope not.

In fact, we then get to the next bit.

"I'm not saying the ideology of the Nazis wasn't terrible, but not every German soldier was a bad person. My grandfather was the only WW2 survivor in my family - it was his job to gaurd German POWs. He befriended a German soldier, and still writes to him every year."

Which puts my previous concern at rest. On this point I have to agree. I cannot believe that every single person fighting for Germany during WW2 was an evil person, just like I don't believe that every single person fighting for the allies was a good person.


"I fear that this product will just be used as a way to villify Germany. Hatred breeds hatred."

This I think is perhaps a little oversensitive. There has been plenty of debate about the holocaust in recent years, including particpants from Germany. I think that most intelligent people are able to seperate what happened back then with the minds and will of the majority of those living in Germany today. There will always be some people out there that hate all German people because of the war; they are in my opinion bigots themselves and more than a little stupid.


"This one-sided viewpoint (the game is spear-heaed by a Jew) will help no-one."

The part about the author being Jewish is UTTERLEY irrelevant and that is the part of lockyuk2000's post I am least comfortable with. He seems to implicitly imply that jewish person cannot comment on the holocaust in an objective way. I think that is a very risky assumption to make and has implications for all sorts of other discussions (is a black person, by the same measure, not able to comment objectively about slavery?).


So in summary I think there is a bunch of stuff in lockyuk2000's post that can be digested in different ways. I'm not quite comfortable with some of the things he implies. I'm not sure if there are sinister undertones, or rather just a view that is slightly distorted by the fear that "I fear that this product will just be used as a way to villify Germany. Hatred breeds hatred."

I think it is too far a leap to say that "This read to me (rightly or wrongly) as the kind of dubious argument used by hardcore anti-semites and holocaust deniers.". I can see where you are coming from, bit its all a bit sudden to accuse someone of that (and its a pretty heavy accusation to lay on someone).

Anyway, I'm talking like lockyuk2000 doesn't exist, which is kind of rude, so I'll zip it now.

Edit: I should add.

"Sorry, but those attitudes offend and dismay me in equal measure."

Me too, have no doubt. I'm just sure that all of them apply here.

@Xiphos

Best post yet. See how much better it is when we are all polite :)

"existing is not about making sure you make a mark on the world, but it is important that you don't go about thinking you should leave one by proxy "

I like that a lot. Its actually very similar to my own mantra for life.

That said, I'm not sure that fear of ideas getting out of hand is a reason to supress them. Surely ideas can do as much good as bad? And what is a bad person has a great ideas for furthering their own nefarious ends, but a good person doesn't try because of the risk?

"The bottom line for me, is that being German and being a Nazi is absolutely not the same thing."

I think everyone agrees on that one. So hurrah :)

So the guy thinks games set in the war are bad and then makes a game set during the war?

Ok then.

/sigh @xbendystevex

I wrote.

"Me too, have no doubt. I'm just sure that all of them apply here."

Dammit! One of those moments where a missing "not" makes all the difference.

I meant to write, I'm just NOT sure that all of them apply here.

Stupid brain, stupid fingers, etc.

I personally think the first comment - Pan's Labyrinth - applies here. A detailed Auschwitz simulator could be a very bad idea (but even that, as with the Darfur game a while back, could have merit if done extremely carefully). But a fantasy game, with a child experiencing the holocaust as the protagonist could be (if done with restraint and respect) excellent.

Whacking ten year olds around the head with the full reality of what happened is inappropriate, but setting the human scene, and perhaps providing an avenue for learning about the subject away from the game could be valuable.

The holocaust is, after all, something that happened. It shouldn't be hidden away from sight because it is too awful, though neither should it be forced down the throats of the too young, or blatently exploited for kicks. Having it a part of popular (in the sense of widespread) culture is important, so as long as the guy is careful, more power to him.

Having used this site for ages and never felt the need to sign up, I have to say reading your posts Xiphos I felt compelled to do so. Trying to sift through the words for sense was great fun. I kind of imagine if one of the great thinkers of years past had been dropped in front of a computer on his day off, whilst very drunk and with time to kill, It might read a bit like yours. Cheers for passing some of my time :)

In fact I'd go as far as to say, you have quite literally "spoken your brain". Oh, the game. Personally I think any thing that aims to teach has got to receive my backing for now. Obviously that's with hope that it is in the end done without a hidden agenda.

The thing is, of course, that most of the games, not just those set in the world war 2 (i.e. Call of Duties, Medal of Honors, Brothers in Arms etc.) provide very limited and simplified 'educational' or 'political' content. We are aware of it and we accept it and that's fine. We expect these games to deliver gameplay and setting/ historical content is merely for convenience's sake. Likewise, games about Vietnam war (Vietcong for example) or modern wars, real of imaginary (Call of Duty 4, Splinter Cell games) are not exactly the deepest imaginable exploration of moral, political and symbolical aspects of human condition in trying times. They are first and foremost about gameplay.

But, lo and behold, here comes 'Imagination is the only escape' and suddenly the tables turn - it is the setting and historical content that are discussed all the time with gameplay being barely mentioned.

What I am trying to say is: I see no reason for IITOE to be any deeper than its counterparts when it comes to exploring the political/ moral/ historical side of things. Slapping some stock information about the holocaust on the touch screen of the DS is well and good but does this really contribute to the gaming experience??? Mouse or Palestine were successful comics that dealt with real world subjects because they played to the strengths of the medium. They found a natural way to talk about genocide in a sequential art medium, using narrative and graphics. It worked. Lets see if Luc Bernard manages to do the same for a 2D platformer. Not saying it can not be done, just that I haven't seen it done properly as yet.

But there are a lot of examples of games who attempt and manage to tell moving stories that force you to think or feel (from Max Paynes to MGSs to Xenogears) so there is no reason for this NOT to be possible. It's just that you really need to understand that the games are first and foremost about gameplay.

Just to add something as well. I often read things along the lines of, 'games are there to be games and nothing else.' As the technology evolves is it not highly likely that computer games will have the chance to not just be 'games'? Was there not a point where phones only rang one person at a time and nothing else? When someone first came up with the idea of a book, did they necessarily think that one day people might have pictures in them? When someone first drew a cave painting did they think that someone would come up with magic eye images in books of all things? Just pondering that's all :) Maybe the term computer games needs rethinking at some stage? Perhaps interactive computer entertainment. Anyway, haven't slept yet, so I'm babbling!