Burning Crusade's quality delayed WAR

By Oli Welsh Published 11 September, 2008

Jacobs wanted more "watercooler quests".

Speaking to MTV, Mythic boss Mark Jacobs has said that the quality of questing in World of Warcraft expansion The Burning Crusade delayed development of his own MMO, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning.

"We obviously had a major bump when Burning Crusade came out," Jacobs said. "When [Blizzard] released that expansion, they raised the expectations of the player."

Jacobs paid tribute to Blizzard's ability to create stand-out quests that players would talk about with each other, and to pack its game with content.

"They put in some of what we call 'watercooler quests', the things that you talk about around the watercooler," he said.

"We looked at the amount of content they put in that and said we need more time if we want to add some of those things, if we want our own watercooler quests or more watercooler quests. So our choice was to delay the game and spend more time on it."

Warhammer Online has been delayed several times from its original 2007 release date, and is finally set to launch on Thursday next week. Public servers for those who pre-ordered the collector's edition of the game will open this Sunday in both Europe and the US.

This will mark the end of an epic two years of beta testing, as Mythic has striven to match the quality of Blizzard's world-dominating MMO.

To find out whether it has succeeded, watch out for Eurogamer MMO's review very soon indeed.

Picture of Oli.

About Oli Welsh

Oli is Eurogamer's acting deputy editor and reviews editor and likes to take things one word at a time. He is among the best dressed people in South London.

Read more articles from Oli by visiting the Oli Welsh archive page.

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Comments (34) Latest comment 3 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • anomagnus #1 3 years ago

    PLayed open beta for the first time last night

    IT IS UNREAL

    The beta is better than some released products i have seen.

  • Gaol #2 3 years ago

    It didn't succeed; not even close. It has less polish than games released years ago. It looks significantly worse than WoW yet runs at a fraction of the framerate. The combat is repetitive and lacks proper feedback for most moves, leading to a very loose mashy feel.

    It's a functional clone at best, and another major disappointment for expectant mmorpg fans. It'll find a niche, similar to DAoC, full of suicidal goth freaks who feel comforted by its dingy dark setting and the fact it isn't 'mainstream'.

  • tomdominer #3 3 years ago

    Regardless of the quality of the product, it is nice to hear one developer complement another rival product instead of slagging it off in a vein attempt to gain press.

  • Chaser #4 3 years ago

    tbh, im enjoying the beta more than i ever enjoyed wow.

  • iokthemonkey #5 3 years ago

    Regardless of the quality of the product, it is nice to hear one developer complement another rival product instead of slagging it off in a vein attempt to gain press.
    --------------------

    It's PR, pure and simple.

    You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, so he's simply paying a compliment so the WoW Community go, "Hey, he's a fan like us, maybe we should check out WAR, too..."

  • Dezm0nd #6 3 years ago

    So Burning Crusade delayed WAR. I believe that this expansion called WOTLK should decimate it then.

    If they had come out saying "WOTLK made us think about our game and it delayed it" then fair enough, but WoW have loads more tricks up their sleeves than ever before to keep us playing.

    Good luck to WAR, though.

  • orakio #7 3 years ago

    It's nice and enjoyable.

    Doesn't have the same lastability as WoW, but focuses on different things, with PQ's, RvR and guild ranks. Open beta's a lot better than closed beta, and they're squirting out another big patch for live release in 3 days.

    So all in all, mission succeeded in my eyes. And I've been both enthusiastic and tremendously dissapointed over the course of beta in the last year.

    Let's just hope GOA doesn't screw up the live headstart!

  • Sildur #8 3 years ago

    I have to agree with Dezm0nd, having played the beta, Burning Crusade is nothing compared to Wrath of the Lich King. Let's hope Mythic have been playing the WotLK beta and learned a few more tricks which they can rip off directly from WoW!
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 10:28

  • berelain #9 3 years ago

    I hope they've got more up their sleeve then, since the beta is still loaded with many of the problems that plagued open beta- including horrendously glitched AI mobs. The game is fun, don't get me wrong, and I'll be playing it for a while, but there are still clear problems with the title yet.

  • dfunked #10 3 years ago

    They're going to have to try pretty damn hard to top the death knight's quest chain if the WotlK beta was anything to go by, there are some serious "water cooler moments" in that!
    They should definitely be more worried about WotlK than BC from my brief experience with it (got halfway to 71 and then stopped playing WoW completely, because I knew that the full release will just consume my life)
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 10:44

  • actionfitz #11 3 years ago

    you have to respect them for delaying the game to add the necessary content and polish.

    Why oh why couldnt Funcom have employed some people like they have at mythic?

    Whats the point of releasing on time and on budget if you're game is recieved like the proverbial lead balloon once the dust settles and the community get over the launch honeymoon period and realise there is nothing of substance behind the hype and impressive starter area?

    Regardless if its your 'cup of tea' or not, you have to hand it to them - if you've played the beta - that the game is stable, solidly built, delivers on the features promised to its fan base and it looks not too shabby.

    Comparisons to WoW aren't that relevant at this stage. No one, not least the developers expect WAR to achieve WOW-like popularity or market penetration. A better barometer of its success would be will it compare to the likes of Everquest 2, DAOC and LOTR - will it maintain relative popularity and profitablity?
    It's being billed as a pvp-centric alternative for those who like WOW's look and feel but are put off by its rather lack lustre and gear obsessed PVP.

    I love wow. I played since beta, stopped for a bit to play AOC, came back when that game dive-bombed in quality after the starter area. Im itching to play WOTLK, but admit I may grab WAR and drop them a few months subscription to check out meaningful pvp and to sample RVR (as my fellow guild mates and former DAOC players evangelise about all the time).
    I love their development diaries and think paul barnett is hilarious and that he radiates a real infectious enthusiam for games - such that im watching WAR closely.

    Sadly because of being burned by Failcom, i'll be picking it up a month or so after launch, after some real player feedback.


    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 10:49

  • iokthemonkey #12 3 years ago

    Unfortunately, EA (and their hideous DRM/SecuROM bollocks) and the appointment of GOA to "manage" the servers (who, according to a colleage, "completely f***ed-over all the DoAC players";) make WAR a non-starter for me.

    The other thing is - and I hate to do the WAR/WOW thing but - it looks too close to WOW for me. If I wanted to play WOW, I'd play WOW. Which I did for a number of years. WAR doesn't look to offer anything new FOR ME, as I hate PvP and there looks to be very little here to differentiate it.

  • anomagnus #13 3 years ago

    @goal

    i dont think we're playing the same game gaol to be quite frank

    you're only valid complaint was graphics, which mythic have said, OVER AND OVER, that the full graphics suite has not been deployed in beta to make sure they had maximum numbers in

    the combat is the EXACT same as WoW, theres nothing loose about

    again, i question if you've played the war beta
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 11:18

  • anomagnus #14 3 years ago

    @iokthemonkey

    um, if you dislike wow, which is THE model for PVE and you don't like PVP, really i think the MMO market is the place for you anymore
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 11:19

  • Vordred #15 3 years ago

    thats just crap, its was delayed because it was no where near finished, and still is not as made evident by them droping 4 classes and 4 cities from the game

  • Lemming81 #16 3 years ago

    ""They put in some of what we call 'watercooler quests', the things that you talk about around the watercooler," he said. "

    Thanks for clarifying that well-known and oft-used phrase Mark! ;)

  • anomagnus #17 3 years ago

    This is my review of my first foray into the game, that i posted on warhammer alliance

    So, last night i got into the EU OB for the first time.

    Disclaimer out of the way first, i'm wont even be mentioned GOA after this. The ob launch was poor, buts it done with, its history, this is my review of the game, and only the game.

    I’ve been into WFB and 40K since issue of 127 of White Dwarf. Some of you will know what that issue means, and some won’t, but my history with GW is going back about 18 years this summer. So I have invested some time into.

    First up, I rolled a High Elf Sword Master

    My first impression upon logging into the world were, ok, it’s very similar to WoW. My first quest was kill some sprites, and I thought to myself, so far, so samey. But, immediately, upon my second quest, I was sent to kill Dark Elves. Yea, NPC’s, but the point was, I wasn’t some nobody killing giant birds to feed lazy tribal elders, I was straight into the war!

    From there, it began to snowball, the Tome began unlocking, I found myself deliberately taking the time to kill 25 sprites and 25 dark elves for the knownlodge unlocks. Wandering around the opening forest I found some dark elves writhing in pain, after trying to ransack a secret altar! It was a very minor quest, but the flavour it added to the zone can’t be under estimated.

    As I progressed, the way the game guides you is fantastic. Each quest given flowed nicely into the next, opening up the lore and the zones, at a great pace. Within about 1 hour of playing, I found myself guided towards my first scenario, the Altar of Khaine. I was 70 before I started pvping in WoW. I was level THREE in WAR. It didn’t feel forced, it didn’t feel unnatural, and the scenario itself was a total blast. I got two of them done, which added up to about 30 minutes play. Game play was superfast, and if I compare it to Warsong Gulch or Arathi Basin, it is clearly superior, due to its speed. This is a pvp set up which won’t require 30 minutes of grief. You get in, you get started, you’re done. End of.

    From there, I continued my questing. Of course I knew about public quests, so I had marked a bit of time ahead, where I’d go and join one. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled upon the first one, the Beast Master and Scornlash, without even trying, and managing to get involved, to the point that on my first completion of it, I placed fourth, and got a white loot bag. Without even trying, I had become involved in a major piece of lore, and got involved in taking down a heroic beast.

    I hung around for another 3 attempts, and filled my influence bar for that chapter. Easy as that.

    From there, its pretty much a similar story, I found myself guided into more and more. The zones opening at a very organic rate, as did my abilities.

    So, with my experience out of the way, I thought I’d address some of the concerns I’ve seen posted:-

    Combat – I was playing with a sword master, so maybe is different for everyone, but by level 6, I found the combat to be as responsive as WoW. Didn’t feel disconnected from the combat, thought each move flowed through to the next. The animations were perfunctory, but I don’t get totally caught up in them, because by this time next year, I’ll be so used to them, I wont even notice them.

    Zone Size – I’ve only penetrated to chapter two so far, by the impression I have of the blighted isle, is that it is HUGE. Now, it may not be the same size as starting zones in other games, but what it does well its create the impression it is. I never felt like a peon entering a giant empty field. I felt like a soilder entering a warzone, that was packed with character.

    Graphics – This is only beta, I’m sure they’ll be updated.

    Enemy pathing – Well, I encountered a few bugs on that, but when the enemies weren’t bugged, it worked wellJ

    To sum it up, again, this is beta?!?!??!

    Mythic has set the bar, just as WoW dead 4 years ago, as far as I am concerned. Before I played the OB, I supported WAR, but said it couldn’t topple WoW.

    What I;m going to say now is, theres no reason why WAR cannot topple WoW! Now, that’s not the same as saying it will, but unlike lots of other games that have been launched, from my first playing, theres nothing to stop WAR becoming as big as WoW, because right now, the only advantage WoW has, is lead time and numbers. Numbers can be eroded, and I think WAR will be the game to do it.

    Its my two cents, but I’m over the moon right now.

  • Lemming81 #18 3 years ago

    @anomagnus: "um, if you dislike wow, which is THE model for PVE"

    Woah, woah, woah!

    Woah.

    The model for polish, I can get behind. But PvE? Most of what Mythic have done is gut that PvE to get rid of all the things that bother people about WoW's PvE experience.

    Kill x number of y for xp? The Quest giver recognises if you've killed what he wants BEFORE you get the quest.

    Waiting three hours to get a group for a dungeon? Getting a group together works in a completely different way that avoids this problem altogether

    People buggering off in the middle of a dungeon? Dungeons can be accessed at checkpoints so you don't have to start from the beginning.

    Quests that require Groups get left till last or left out entirely because you can't find a group? Again, sorted.




  • Sildur #19 3 years ago

    anomagnus - Damn you're passionate about this - don't you have any work to do? :)

    Or are you an employee of EA Mythic? :D
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 11:50

  • JDT_JDT #20 3 years ago

    I agree it does look like it might work out very well, anomagnus, but can you really make excuses because it is beta now? It's a few days before the release!

    The most disappointing thing for me is the graphics. It looks worse than WoW and it's years old - looks like a game from 2004. And no, I mean the quality of the graphics, not the more 'gritty' artwork etc.

    Sure MMOs need to keep the system requirements down, which is good, but they shoulod scale to at least some degree. Still not an excuse for looking worse than WoW, which runs on pretty much anything,

  • anomagnus #21 3 years ago

    @Lemming81

    well i kinda agree, but blizzard have set the bar on PVE action, either solo questing or group runs/raids.

    @Sildur

    I'm fortunate to have a job where being on games sites is part of my duties!

    @JDT_JDT
    THe only thing i am excusing is the graphics package really, which mythic have stared multiple times has been deliberately toned dwon to maximise entry into the beta.

    Being quite frank, the graphics are about 80% of wow's standard right now. I could take that for playability even if they didnt switch on the full package.
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 11:58

  • Bleh #22 3 years ago

    "you have to respect them for delaying the game to add the necessary content and polish.

    Why oh why couldnt Funcom have employed some people like they have at mythic?"

    Haha it made me laugh actionfitz. Just before release they took out about half of the game.

    So they got it delayed because they wanted to have some watercooler quests yet they hadn't time to finish the capitols and classes which you would say are more fundamental. Yeah right Jacobs.

  • magicpanda #23 3 years ago

    I'll add a +1 to anomagnus post with an extra nod to the superb art direction.

    It's a cracker with fooking bags of potential.

  • Gaol #24 3 years ago

    @anomagnis

    I've been in months, in closed and now open.

    By loose combat I mean when I hit an instant ability I expect a big sound effect immediatelly, followed by a swift animation and loud damage sound; and preferably a big red number showing the result. In WAR you hit an ability and there's a tiny 'plonk' noise (some of the time) followed some seconds later by a wishy washy animation and sound - by which time I'm busy mashing the number keys again as the global cooldown is finishing. To see what damage I'm doing I have to look out for a tiny red bar near the mob (if it hasn't glitched accross the server duwe to lag), but to be honest I'm too busy timing my button presses against the toolbar to maximise damage output.

    @Lemming

    "Kill x number of y for xp? The Quest giver recognises if you've killed what he wants BEFORE you get the quest. "

    This is a laughable mechanic, something that works on paper and not in practice. The whole point of a quest is to spend time earning a reward. By having npcs react in this fashion what you get is meeting the odd NPC who suddenly turns around and gives you some xp, seemingly at random. All this does is speed up your levelling time artificially, and adds nothing in terms of content to the game.
    Edited by 1 at 11/09/08 @ 13:21

  • Lemming81 #25 3 years ago

    @Gaol:

    Well that's a very 'half glass empty' way of looking at it. You could argue that a whole game is 'artificial' and we should all just be watching a string of numbers fly past on the screen.

    The way I see it, it makes sense. If I mow my way through boars to get to a guy who wants me to kill boars, I'd say it adds a hell of alot more to the immersion if he acknowledges he's just seen me do it right in front of him.


    I also don't get the graphics hate. The high quality videos I've seen on YouTube recently tell me it's damn good quality and basically finished. It's just less exaggerated and brightly coloured than WoW. That doesn't make it worse though.
    Edited by 2 at 11/09/08 @ 13:36

  • shamblemonkee #26 3 years ago

    I think that statement needs qulifying Fluffy, your opinion of course but i have to disagree. As Gaol was saying, and as you must have experienced as a Dwarf engineer - shooting your gun, the shot sound only plays sometimes and not in sync with the animation - that sorta stuff is quite shoddy.

  • magicpanda #27 3 years ago

    All that can be fixed though, the underlying game mechanics, content and art direction are top notch.

    Will watch the next few patch releases with interest. Animation, AI pathing and evading and the combat should hopefully be top of the list to be tightened up.

  • Gaol #28 3 years ago

    @Lemming

    Thats what the devs say and it doesn't add up. Why are you mowing through Boars to get to a guy who doesn't have a quest for you? The reaction of the player in actuality is 'oh free xp.. ok, next quest'. So they don't actually add content to the game with this concept, just some arbritrary xp rewards for grinding, its only use is to keep wiki writers happy. You don't suddenly improve grind quests, or indeed grinding, by making people guess which mobs they need to grind for a free bonus.

    Its the world graphics that cause most concern. There is a very short draw distance, and it always seems dark when I'm playing. I've tried many areas and I always come away feeling I haven't seen anything of note. The draw distance and dinginess are the main issues, rather than it just being plain ugly. The character models are good.

  • magicpanda #29 3 years ago

    One thing I dont understand is why Mythic dont give GOA their website lock and stock that they can edit and use.

  • RedSparrows #30 3 years ago

    Lemming, which WoW have you been playing recently, cos only the first point, about NPCs knowing you've killed stuff already, is any different to WoW, which has different systems but the same, fluid results.

    Anyway, I'd try WAR, but i have an MA to do, hah.

  • iokthemonkey #31 3 years ago

    @iokthemonkey

    um, if you dislike wow, which is THE model for PVE and you don't like PVP, really i think the MMO market is the place for you anymore
    -----

    Where did I say I disliked WoW? I said I'd played it for years and wanted something different, but that WAR wasn't different enough and the PvP stuff held no interest for me. Never has.

  • magicpanda #32 3 years ago

    It's a bit hard to tell the direction of the PVE content at the moment. What I've played though has been good. Doing hard, out of the way, public quests in small groups is a lot of fun.

  • SleepyMagpie #33 3 years ago

    I'm gonna be fairly brief here and just say right away that I agree with just about everything Gaol has written, maybe he should review MMO's for EG from now on? ^^

    I wanted to like Warhammer Online; Mythic did many good things with DAoC, and on paper it seems they had some of that going with WAR too.

    For me, however, the totally shoddy character animation (how few frames are there, 5?), and the non synched, unresponsive, uncertain combat are killers. It looks like they've just tacked new graphics on top of the old DAoC engine (just like Age of Conan is hiding the erratic Anarchy Online engine underneath it's sterioded muscle). There are many other flaws as well.

    Now, this is not a fundamentally broken game, like Age of Conan, for instance. It could be repaired and brought up to speed. Let's hope they do that.

    As it stands it's a 6/10.

  • Krelle #34 3 years ago

    "I'm gonna be fairly brief here and just say right away that I agree with just about everything Gaol has written, maybe he should review MMO's for EG from now on?"

    +1


    (But Oli can still review! Me likes Oli aswell.)