Violent games: "buck stops with parents"

By Johnny Minkley Published 7 April, 2010

Reason prevails in BBC radio debate.

Parents must take responsibility for keeping violent content away from children - that was the message this morning from Mothers Against Violence in a BBC Radio Leeds debate on violent videogames.

A spokesperson for the organisation, whose aim is to "promote the eradication of violence and to relieve the victims of the effects of violence within the community", told the station: "I'm not directly blaming games, I'm blaming parents," adding: "If someone doesn't do something where does it stop?"

Grand Theft Auto was the inevitable focal point of the discussion - between the parent, presenters and a games journalists - with the handheld versions of the series produced locally at Rockstar Leeds.

On GTA, the mother said: "Why is it okay to beat up a prostitute, but not okay to pick up a normal civilian?" In fact, GTA features the ability to pick up and drive around 'normal civilians'.

A broader point made was that many parents, despite age-ratings on packaging, don't pay attention to the games their children are playing, not are they aware of the negative effects they could have.

The Mothers Against Violence spokesperson called on other mothers to help educate parents on the issue, stating: "It just takes one of us to spread the word, to plant the seed." It's about "taking the time to study what games are all about," she added, expressing fears that violent games were "desensitising" children who are "becoming complacent and think they're invincible".

Rockstar issued a statement to BBC Radio Leeds, stating it "submits every game to the appropriate ratings body", adding that the GTA series is "18-rated and is entertainment clearly aimed at an adult audience".

Videogames in the UK are currently age-rated by the BBFC and PEGI, with the latter system set to be adopted as the sole standard. Part of the controversial Digital Economy Bill - which receives its third reading in UK parliament today - the system is expected to pass into law before next months general election.

The UK games industry has said it will fund a parental awareness campaign on the new ratings.

Picture of Johnny.

About Johnny Minkley

Eurogamer TV's Johnny Minkley is a veteran journalist with a lifelong passion for games and the games industry. He uses Twitter more than most people use air.

Read more articles from Johnny by visiting the Johnny Minkley archive page.

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Comments (83) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Redeye #1 2 years ago

    Hooray for a bit of intelligence, only slightly marred by the words "I'm not directly blaming games". Even within context, it's still a bit of a face-palmer.

    The only problem I ever have with organisations such as these is that the Bill Bailey sketch about Rosie O'Donnel keeps coming to mind:

    "Speaking as a mother...what's that, a euphemism for 'talking out of my arse'?"

  • consignia #2 2 years ago

    Why does the beat up prositute line get wheeled out at every public discussion on GTA? While it is possible, like is possible to beat up any NPC, it is not something that you'd really do a normal play through, nor is it encouraged at any point.

  • Gaol #3 2 years ago

    Not sure what the new ratings system will achieve other than confusion. If parents ignore the BBFC labels that they've been familiar with all their days, what chance is there they will pay any attention to new ones?

  • TeaFiend #4 2 years ago

    Public discussion and a reasonable answer? WHAT?

  • kangarootoo #5 2 years ago

    @Gaol

    I suppose a new system is a chance to "re-market" the idea that games have age restrictions?... though I agree that the BBFC system is understood perfectly by pretty much everyone when it comes to films, so you would hope that simply mounting a big campaign to say "its really jsut the same, but for games" would do the trick.

  • RodHull #6 2 years ago

    Mum buying games for eight-ish looking old son in front of me in the queue at Tesco on Saturday: Modern Warfare 2 and Fallout 3. Now kudos for the kid for having some gaming taste but naughty mum and naughty Tesco's for the purchases. Mum's comment to elephant-girl at the till: "anything for a quiet half term".

    So maybe it's the kids faults for being such cunts in the first place that they need bribing to keep them schtum?

  • KillerMonkey #7 2 years ago

    @RodHull
    "So maybe it's the kids faults for being such cunts in the first place that they need bribing to keep them schtum?"

    Most kids are cunts at one point. They have to learn not to be. That's never gonna happen if you keep "bribing" them to not be cunts...

  • username #8 2 years ago

    The problem of ill-informed parents buying innapropriate games for their children will start going away as "our generation" (twenty/thirty/forty somethings) have children. Anyone older than that is unlikely to have had any exposure to video games growing up and therefore doesn't understand the difference between Modern Warfare and Super Mario Galaxy. To them, video games are toys for children and they have no interest in learning any different.

  • spekkeh #9 2 years ago

    While it is possible, like is possible to beat up any NPC, it is not something that you'd really do a normal play through, nor is it encouraged at any point.

    Guess I'm not normal then (oh yes, I'm a very special boy). I ran over hundreds of NPCs during a normal play through, while trying to chase/shake the cops, motor cycles, gangmembers etc. Running over / beating up prostitutes and NPCs IS in fact encouraged, because they frequently drop money. I ran over all my prostitutes, because you have to drive to a hidden spot anyway, and that way the health boost is free.

  • kinky_mong #10 2 years ago

    Why does the beat up prositute line get wheeled out at every public discussion on GTA? While it is possible, like is possible to beat up any NPC, it is not something that you'd really do a normal play through, nor is it encouraged at any point.

    Funnily enough in Chinatown Wars one of the random person encounters sees you set upon by a group of prostitutes who are sick of people beating them up to get their money back, and obviously you have to gun them down to pass the mission. Nice bit of satire I thought.

  • PearOfAnguish #11 2 years ago

    "anything for a quiet half term"

    Yeah, because who wants to actually spend time with the little shits, right?

    I don't like children but people like that make me want to commit a violent videogame-inspired crime. Why bother having kids in the first place if it's that much hassle.

  • Lankysi #12 2 years ago

    Its about bloody time someone came out and blamed the parents rather than the games. Its disgusted me for years how the buck has never stopped at Mum and Dad!

    @username - that's a rather poor argument as there is a big fat red sticker on Modern Warfare 2 telling parents that its an 18-rated game, much like an 18-rated movie.

    My cousin (now 14) has been playing 18-rated games like Gears and GTA since he was about 12 and its always appalled me! The excuse I get from my aunt and uncle is "well its not real".......right, ok, sure, but why the 18 rating then?!

    I don't see how a new system will change anything. Kids will still ask parents for the next GTA and they'll damn well buy it :(

  • jonbwfc #13 2 years ago

    In your face Titchmarsh!

  • ekko #14 2 years ago

    Bit strange that Eurogamer listens to BBC Leeds. Thought you lot were based down in Brighton? Don't you get banal debates on your local radio?

  • trubadman #15 2 years ago

    Another point that people tend to leave out is the fact that many parents appreciate the violence or whatever in video games, but don't mind their kids playing it, in the same way that they wouldn't mind their 12 year old watching scarface or reservoir dogs. Everyone has different 'standards', and so you end up with a situation where kids play 18 rated games, because they get older friends to buy them, their parents don't have a clue about ratings (or don't appreciate that an 18 game is like and 18 film) or their parents don't mind.

    Personally, if i had kids i would take each game on its own merit before deciding whether they could play it. E.g. i wouldn't see a problem with a 12 year old playing Uncharted 2 (rated 15.)

    Children are getting desensitised to violence, but tbh, games didn't do it for me, it was films with real people, i know graphics are amazing now, but personally i think films have more of an effect. Games are always blamed, because they are relatively new (not really) tech which are not fully understood by the older generation. Also, the fact that you control what happens in a game.

  • malexous #16 2 years ago

    As I said on another part of the internet:

    Children own the parents these days; not the other way round.

    As shown by RodHull, parents these days will do anything do take the easy way out and will give their child what they want.

  • username #17 2 years ago

    @Lankysi that's the point though - these parents don't see games as being anything like films. The idea of age ratings for films has been around for a long time and is very familiar to everyone. As you point out yourself, the problem is that they believe a game is "just a game" and therefore can't be as bad as a film. I bet that most parents who let their children play 18 rated games wouldn't let them watch 18 rated films.

    These same people then wail and complain about all the prostitute killing going on because they're genuinely surprised that games (which are toys and therefore just for children) have this kind of content.

  • Slipstream #18 2 years ago

    This has been the issue since they started slapping age rating on games, yet, like everything else that involves a kid being below the radar of their parent whether they're playing games, at school or out with friends, the blame will always fall onto the reason for that childs distraction rather than the parent actually taking responsibility, and failing to investigate what their child will be getting upto beforehand.

    Having worked in games retail, I have seen this countless times, parents denying the guilt for the purchase of 18 rated games over and over, the pattern is as such...

    -Kid brings up 18 rated game

    -You can blatently see that this kid is not 18 so you deny the purchase.

    -Kid Comes back with mother or father (From this point on it is totally in the parents hands.

    -Parent places the game on the counter either with an embarrassed look: their eyes fixiated on me for approval of what they're doing. OR the shame is simply too much they tend to avoid all eye contact with you, pretending to be angry at their kid who pulled their guilt ridden concience from the otherside of the shop or ruffling through bags/pockets with their heads down to avoid falling into conversation with you as they know this is a clear breach of parental rules.

    -As I sell the game, I slip a comment about the content featured. Sometimes this works, and the genuinely unknowing parent will ask their child to choose another game, but for the most part their response is "Oh he's smart/old enough (err no) to know right from wrong, it really depends how they've been bought up doesn't it/don't you think/right? Yes, again, seeking approval for this dastardly act.

    It's time the parents took more responsibility, not sure how much effect the broadcast would've had. I guess time will tell.
    Edited by 2 at 07/04/10 @ 13:56

  • Murton #19 2 years ago

    @Gaol: it's not just the age rating on PEGI though, it also carries a brief description of what gave it that rating, violence, sexual imagery, bad language etc. So this is a chance to re-market the idea of age restrictions as Kangarootoo says and encourage parents to look at the back of the box to see what sort of game they're buying for their children.

    There was also some pretty big disagreements about the Digital Economy Bill yesterday and I think there will be more today. Many are hoping that democracy will prevail and it will be put on hold and debated properly in the next parliament, though most expect Labour to continue to bang on about the need to act quickly and force it through in the "wash up" process next week.

  • speedjack #20 2 years ago

    Yay !

    Speaking as a parent I would have thought this was obvious.

    There is nothing I hate more than the media latching on to 'appalled' parents who take no interest in what their children are doing but happily point the fingers at others when their little darling turns into a de-sensitised, anti-social idiot.
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 11:42

  • metalangel #21 2 years ago

    "Won't someone PLEASE think of my children, because I can't be bothered!"

  • TruSmiles #22 2 years ago

    Have to agree about kids 'owning' the parents. Kids can drop an immense amount of pressure on their parents for the latest toy or video game. I easily got my parents to buy violent video games above my own age when I was younger just by convincing them that the game was all right and worth the money. It was partly their ignorance in gaming which allowed me to get away with playing things I probably shouldn't.

    But, it also depends on the maturity and personality of the kid. I wouldn't say that kids younger than 10 should be allowed games like GTA, but by the time you're 15 a lot of kids are mature enough to play 18 rated games no problem. I mean, I wouldn't stop myself playing 18 rated games just because I was 17, etc.

  • kangarootoo #23 2 years ago

    "parents these days will do anything do take the easy way out and will give their child what they want"

    Bad parents do. Good parents don't. And despite what appears to be the case in the news, good parents are probably in the majority. It just takes a few bad ones to spoil things for everyone.


    @RodHull

    I can only assume you aren't a parent :) Kids don't start off being dickheads, they are just kids, driven by their biology and emotions. Some kids are raised well and realise they can't always have what they want, and some kids are raised badly and stay dickheads for the rest of their lives. It is the parental teaching and care that makes the difference, not the kid.

  • Vordred #24 2 years ago

    as username said, it think things might change as gamers start becoming parents.
    but that being said, i already know a lot of gamers with kids that let them play 18 rated games.

    if i had kids (probabally never will, hate the sodding things) i know one thing i wouldn't let them do, and thats play online. 1. because of all the foul mouthed abusive gits you get online, and 2. because te last thing anyone wants to hear down their mic is a high pitched little shite singing and shouting into his mic.

    plus kids should be outside running around pretending to shoot thier real friends with plastic guns, not sitting at home on their own shooting their virtual friends with virtual guns :p

  • mattius30 #25 2 years ago

    The whole issue of crap, excuse-laiden parenting and child domination just depresses me beyond belief. I for one feel so blessed that I will never have children, and I will never have to hear myself say 'as a parent'. Where is the Singles, Seniors, Childless Couples And Teens And Gays Against Parasitic Parents action group when we need them? And I really must stop reading these news stories about thick mums and dads and spoilt, brain dead children....

  • Hypercube #26 2 years ago

    I think society has a very short memory. Go back a hundred years and violence was pretty common place in many locales around the country. I think we're seeing our own social "algorithms" coming to terms with both the very easy access to a wide media by people who don't really understand a lot of things in the modern world and also coming to terms with changes that they themselves might not be comfortable with but are unable to place in a wider context.

    Back when children were regularly beaten as part of a 'proper upbringing' and then hurled into a foreign war in their late teens to die a slow death in some trenches, I reckon they were pretty used to violence.

    Still, any chance to hear someone talking about smacking ho's up on the radio is good.

  • Mkwone #27 2 years ago

    Is it just me or have the game cases changed recently? I looked on some of the earlier games released this generation and they just had the PEGI age rating on them. But on the newer games (adult games especially) they were plastered in the BBFC logos on the front, side and back and also provided a description of what to expect in the game like on DVD boxes (Contains frequent swearing and drug references for example).

  • geeza2020 #28 2 years ago

    i think if a parent is caught buying an 18-rated game for a child, they should be arrested and charged with neglect. Its the only way to make these morons understand that the 18 certificate is there for a fucking reason.

  • bivith #29 2 years ago

    The PEGI rating system is a joke. Why for instance, does Sonic Heroes carry a 3+ rating, and yet the Sonic Mega Collection has a 12+ rating for violent content?!
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 12:07

  • vx-chemical #30 2 years ago

    When you are 12 years and older, you can play any game and not get funny thoughts, if the parents atleast did half a decent job.

    I myself watched nearly all kinds of movies, and played all kinds of games from i was 6. I know games werent as graphic 24 years ago, but the movies havent changed much.

    My parents always made a point at telling me whats real and whats fantasy, i have yet to kill someone, hell i have yet to even beat anyone up.

    I've always been a good boy, its the parents upbringing that counts, not the media that the kids see. to hell with ratings, it should be the parents who control the games not some silly board.

  • Collymilad #31 2 years ago

    Wow.

    Thank you.

  • noobjob #32 2 years ago

    im seventeen in just under a month and i have been allowed 18 games now for just over to years, but before that point there was no way in hell my mum would have let me have an 18 game. I remeber when Gta san andreas was released and i had just started high school and everyone had gta execpt me it must have been hard for my dear old ma as i was coming home veryday from school not been able to join in the new craze as everyone had the game but me. at the time i think it made me really want to hurt my mum but looking back in retrospect i really respect what she did and maybe people such as " i want a quiet half term lady" should take in into account what my mum did, not giving in once even though she could see i was upset. some of the comments i've read really to make me glad i've had a good upbringing.......

  • sonicyoda #33 2 years ago

    The UK games industry does not need to fund a parental awareness campaign in regards to the PEGI rating system. If parents can't understand that the number on the box is the minimum age you have to be to play the game then they need to go back to school. They're even coloured like some crazy threat-level indicator now!

  • Moribundman #34 2 years ago

    The thing is, I suspect a lot the parents doing the complaining are opining but not directly effected by this issue.

    Parents whose kids DON'T play these games expressing moral outrage on behalf of those who couldn't care less what their kids do. It's the sort of vicarious moral nannying from middle class Daily Mail readers who think that since Wayne and Waynetta can't be trusted to keep an eye on their kids, they are breeding a generation of thugs to pray on THEIR stifled/sensibly monitored offspring.

    If these peoples' kids ARE playing adult games then even if they are not directly complicit in allowing their child to acquire the games, they certainly seem happy to let them play them long enough to be appauled without bothering to watch the kids play or look at the box (or do they never venture into their pre-teens room to see what they're up to? You wouldn't let a young kid walk across a busy road to go play football in the park with a complete stranger adult because you are responsible for the kids wellbeing, so why would you let them play away with a strange adult rated game, completely unchecked?)

    Finally, the GTA example and the prostitute line are always dragged out, and will be 20 years after R* draw the franchise to a close. It's the only game these people have ever heard of, and the only reason they've heard of it in the first place is because their fellow rabble rousers are exaggerating or selectively picking elements of the game. Next time someone says "games like Grand Theft Auto" they need an IMMEDIATE qualifying question - "WHICH games like Grand Theft Auto?". I'll wager a large amount of money that most of these outraged parents couldn't name a single game since they've not had their titles splashed all over the headlines.

    Finally yes you can pay to sleep with prostitutes in GTA, and yes you can gun down/stab/run over people in GTA. The two are not directly linked, and while you can do that, its like saying "GTA teaches kids to jump off buildings in front of speeding cars" - you can jump off a building with a 'chute, you can walk in front of cars and get sent careering into the air. Nobody encourages you to do them in conjunction with one another and nobody suggests its a good idea to do so.

    ****IT'S AN ADULT GAME IN ANY CASE****

  • Daryoon #35 2 years ago

    Parents won't mind their kids playing violent games or watching violent films... but if it were something remotely sexual or pornographic...

    The whole "killing things is morally superior to fucking things" belief amuses/saddens me no end.

  • djed #36 2 years ago

    What's the PEGI for World of Warcraft? From what I've seen, WoW has been part in more troubled lives than Grand Theft Auto has been part in hooker beatings.

    edit: fixed splleing mishake
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 17:01

  • kangarootoo #37 2 years ago

    @vx-chemical

    Whether you believe the ratings should be enforced in law or not is one thing, but surely a ratings system helps parents make the decisions you suggest they should make. Without a ratings system, how would parents find out what a game contains? They are hardly going to read reviews or consult shop staff at length (hardly reliable at the best of times) every time they want to make a purchase.

    The BBFC rating system is a bit closed I guess, as it simply gives an age. The PEGI system however (and I believe the newly proposed system) gives different indicators for each type of content that might cause concern (violence, drugs, sex, gambling, etc). Such a system means that at a glance a parent can make their own decisions, without having to first play the game themselves in order to find out what it is all about.

  • makeamazing #38 2 years ago

    For me as a parent its a look at it and see.. for example I would never let my kids play GTA, know straight away what is involved and what the content is... I normally rate the games myself based on type of violence, swearing and other content (drugs etc)... If its fantasy violence then i have less of a problem with that compared to mature violence. So if there is a 3 or 4 year difference i check them out first to see (it all depends on if its something my oldest wants to play).

    The problem i have is in poor ratings, for example, anyone care to tell me why Pegi decided Terminator salvation was a 16, seriously ive seen worse 12A movies. I am testing Final Fantasy right now, and again, I cannot undestand the 16 rating. Its really not a 16 imho so far (perhaps it gets worse later on... dont know yet, but from everyone ive spoken too they dont understand it either).

    So yes, I agree Parents are to blame in most cases (my son knows lots of 12 year olds at school who have played GTA) - which is terrible. But it would be better if PEGI was better at ratings.

  • darleysam #39 2 years ago

    In my local GAME, I've seen a number of parents stand up to their kids. One who was about 13 or 14 wanted to get Arkham Asylum, I heard his dad clearly state that he's not buying him an 18-rated game. The kid game back with "but (friend's name)'s parents let him play it". This was expertly cut down with the sarcastic approximation of "oh, and he's a great example, isn't he"

    I wanted to go and shake his hand.

  • Paulie_P #40 2 years ago

    "anything for a quiet half term".

    Having spent thousands of pounds in solicitors fees over the past 3 years just to get to see my child for 4 hours a week, this kind of attitude makes me sick to the stomach.

  • darleysam #41 2 years ago

    Social services objected to the use of a ball-gag, then?
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 13:31

  • BobsUncle #42 2 years ago

    Age ratings in the UK are bollocks anyway.

    How can a film like Kick Ass, which has the word 'Cunt' in and shows a man being microwaved until he explodes amongst some other extremely violent scenes only get a 15 rating, and games with a much lower level of violence get an 18?

  • jonsaan #43 2 years ago

    My kids don't play anything I haven't played through myself. Age ratings are very subjective. All children are different. It's up to parents to be aware of what their kids are sat in front of.

  • OnlyMe #44 2 years ago

    darleysam: yeah, kids are quick to use that excuse. When my kids do, I just say that just because other people are stupid, doesn't mean I have to be. :D Or something. Putting it in a way to make sure that my kid doesn't suddenly go around as say "my dad say's your dad's stupid" and stuff like that.

    I can kinda understand that it's difficult for parents with no knowledge of games. I think just like with movies, that ratings are often hit or miss. For example, I don't really have issues letting my 4 year old son try out Final Fantasy IV or watch me play FFXIII. But not Demon's Souls, which still is basically the same thing but with a different setting and more "mature" visuals.

  • gjgjg #45 2 years ago

    comon mothers against violence, with a name like that surely you can muster a little crazy histeria, this intelligent talk makes me scared that we might be growing up as a race

  • zuljin #46 2 years ago

    The PEGI system hasn't really changed recently though. All they've done is slightly modify the main icons to end their troubles with BBFC. Personally I thought looking like the BBFC icons was probably a good thing!

    Are there additional changes with the new digital economy bill? Nothing seems to be detailed on the PEGI website. So if the only changes are that it will be the sole rating system, then an awareness campaign is a bit late, since its been fully used for about a year and a half.

    EDIT: Spelling
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 13:57

  • ron_aldo #47 2 years ago

    Parents have to be more responsible. I sold MW2 on Play recently and the buyer emailed me saying that his young son bought it with his birthday money. Made me feel a little uneasy.

  • trubadman #48 2 years ago

    @ darleysam

    In my local GAME, I've seen a number of parents stand up to their kids. One who was about 13 or 14 wanted to get Arkham Asylum, I heard his dad clearly state that he's not buying him an 18-rated game.

    That was a bit harsh from his dad, since i am pretty damn sure that Arkham Asylum is a 15, therefore making that kid 1-2 years younger than the rating!!

  • darleysam #49 2 years ago

    OnlyMe, yeah, I absolutely empathise with parents who have to learn this stuff and try to explain to their kids in a way that helps them understand why they're not being allowed to do this. I've had many discussions with my girlfriend (who plays games just as much as I do) that when we have kids, we'll do our best to keep up with what kinds of media is around and stay involved with it.

    edit: trubadman, shopto says it's a 16, so we'll call it an average.. I'm pretty sure it was AA, but I heard the exchange and saw the game in the kid's hand had a big, red '18' label on the front. Obviously I'm mistaken in the title.
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 14:08

  • RexRunti #50 2 years ago

    @BobsUncle

    Er context? I'm pretty sure Hot Fuzz had the word "cunt" in it as well as someones head exploding, that was a 15. The thing about the BBFC system is that is not just a tick box exercise of "the word penis has been used 10 times therefore its a 15" as that really doesn't help with a documentary for 11 year olds sex education. Clearly fantasy settings adjust the age rating down, an agressor gets there arm chopped off by a lightsaber: U, a schoolgirl gets her arm chopped off by a chainsaw: 18.

    The PEGI system is a tick box exercise which turns games like Mass Effect into 18s when the BBFC rate it 12, and worse still the tick box exercise is done by the developers themselves.

  • zuljin #51 2 years ago

    @trubadman + darleysam
    Its 15 BBFC, 16+ PEGI... (13+ in US)

    Just to confuse matters more :)

  • kosigan #52 2 years ago

    I've been in a games shop and seen a child of around 8 or 9 pass Kane & Lynch (definitely an 18-rated game) to his dad, who barely glanced at it while handing it over to the shop assistant to be paid for. I could have said something, but what would be the point? I've also seen a parent let their child pack and pay for shopping, including alcohol; when I pointed out that it was illegal, as the child had just purchased the alcohol and not the parent, he didn't give a toss - his line was, well, he was there, so that's OK then. The ignorance lies with the parents who either (a) don't have a clue or (b) don't care even if they do. The fact that this conclusion seems to have come out of a public debate makes a pleasant change.

  • zuljin #53 2 years ago

    @RexRunti
    Not for the UK. In the UK PEGI contains questions which would mean the game possibly doesn't qualify for PEGI, and needs BBFC ratings instead.

  • CosmicGypsy #54 2 years ago

    @Mkwone

    The BBFC ratings aren't applied to anything below a 15 Rating. If PEGI rates a game as 15/18, it has to be sent to the BBFC. Otherwise they don't go on the box. Not sure when this rule came in but it's been around for a while now.

    @Von_Adder

    seperating games in shops based on their ratings is a very good idea. Similar to putting yer "analogue" Pr0N rags on the top shelf in the newsagents.
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 14:52

  • sonicyoda #55 2 years ago

    @Von_Adder

    What a truly magnificent yet simple idea. I wouldn't say it was Draconian in the slightest. It would be loads easier to find games for both kids and adults. Even I get a bit confused by Gamestation and Game's store layout sometimes. Don't even get me started on CEX.

  • BabyJesus #56 2 years ago

    Pleasantly surprised.

  • ravendarph #57 2 years ago

    Finally some people with a little bit of sense. I'm sick of game developers getting the blame and a bad name for making games that are Adult oriented which are rated 18+ for a reason.

    Someone has now finally said the PARENTS should be the one to take the blame has they are the ones that A) tend to buy these games for the kids and B) let their kids play the things.

    Why are parents saying the kids have no respect for authority or break the law when they allow them to play adult games therefore breaking the law themselves. As a Gamer and a Parent I think that any kids that are underage playing games that are for example 18+ and get found out, the parents should be the ones fined.

    Also I think that Microsoft and Sony should use the age verification thing to deal with the age thing. If something is 15+ don't let a 14 year old or younger play it on their system.

  • kangarootoo #58 2 years ago

    I also second Von_Adder's segregated shop idea. Even if there isn't a physical barrier (which probably is a bit extreme), it serves as a very clear indication to parents and shop staff that there is a distinction.

  • BobsUncle #59 2 years ago

    @RexRunti

    I wasn't saying it is/isn't/should/shouldn't be using a checkbox system of some sort. I was just quite astounded at the level of violence and gore in Kick Ass compared to, say, Commando or Terminator 2 and then see that it get's a lower age rating.

    My point was simply that age ratings don't seem to make sense in the UK anyway.

  • SpaceMonkey77 #60 2 years ago

    Indeed about time parents accepted some responsibility.

    Segregation of games by age ratng was probably considered by game stores a long time ago, as games became more intense and mature in content over the years. Its not such a simple thing to do though, as say with films or music.

    Problems arise would arise to complicate stores. Since games are sold in game stores more under their genre, and with new genres of games sometimes coming through like rhythm action games, it can get tricky. Rock Band and Guitar Hero are great examples here, because they take up huge aounts of space instore, and while their gameplay is very accessible to all ages, the musical rock content is sometimes not suitable for kids.

    Now, the nature of rock while cool is about rebellion. However, the thought of little Johnny singing Iron Maiden's 'Run For the Hills', is very scary. Makes me wonder if they actually understand what that song is about, and if they think about it when they walk away.

  • zuljin #61 2 years ago

    @ravendarph
    Erm they do. Theres a huge section on PS3 dealing with parental controls... America, suprisingly though, has an additional flag to override age restricted content (which just goes to show the crazy way ratings work over there).

    Try creating a 13 yr old account on PSN, then try starting Modern Warfare 2. You won't even see the background change. The problem however lies in how easy it is for a child to create an 18 account without their parents consent. And how many parents are going to help their child set up a games console when they first get it?

    Note: Although I've only played around with this on PSN, I'm sure Live works similarly if not identical.

  • Les #62 2 years ago

    TBH I don't think violent games have a big impact on kids at all nor do parents (and there's plenty of research to back that viewpoint however counter-intuitive it might seem at first - nice start (though not directly about video games) is the book 'The Blank Slate' by Stephen Pinker).

    Violence is part of human nature and whether it surfaces in what society would consider a "normal person" pretty much depends on the environment in which he/she (though mostly "he";) grows up/lives as well as the genes one is given (that's pretty much where parental 'influence' on (out-of-sight) behaviour stops).

    Then there are the abnormal persons or psychopaths. There's little society can do about them other than identify them ASAP, treat them and/or shield society in general from them.

    Of course such rational analysis of the issue at hand will not resonate well with the average voter so useless slogans like "blame the parents" or "blame the video games" are bound to hinder public debate until we go extinct...
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 16:47

  • kangarootoo #63 2 years ago

    @SpaceMonkey77

    I actually think Run To The Hills is a fine song for kids to listen to as soon as they are old enough to understand it (but then if they are too young to understand it, its unlikely to cause a problem either surely?).

    Its probably not the most efficient way to teach a kid about the history of the US, but if it pushes them to ask questions I think that is positive.

  • RexRunti #64 2 years ago

    Do I think it should be illegal for children to buy games unsuitable for them? Yes.
    Do I think parents should take responsibility for the games parents buy for their children? Yes.
    Do I think it should be illegal for parents to buy unsuitable games for their children? No.

    At the end of the day it should be up to the parent's what they feel is suitable or not for their individual child. My mum was quite strict with age ratings on movies growing up, not letting me watch Gremlins when all the kids in my school were talking about it, however it didn't stop her from taking me to see the 15 rated Schinder's List at the cinema when I was 14.

  • darleysam #65 2 years ago

    Yup, RexRunti has it. Parents should be responsible, which means they should be able to choose if something is acceptable, but also held accountable for actions if they permit material that is unsuitable for their child.

  • kangarootoo #66 2 years ago

    @RexRunti

    Agreed.

  • Les #67 2 years ago

    "Do I think it should be illegal for children to buy games unsuitable for them? Yes."

    The big problem though is agreeing on what is unsuitable. As your personal example shows, what the law or ratings board deems unsuitable can differ from what the parent deems unsuitable. There's no properly motivated standard for 'unsuitableness'.

    The fist step should be proper scientific investigation of the effects media (in any form) have on kids and their development. Till now, ratings agencies and parents in general have relied too much on 'gut feel' and 'common knowledge' which time and again are proven with scientific research to be ill advisers. In other words: we need to take the emotion out of the debate.

  • kangarootoo #68 2 years ago

    @Les

    "Till now, ratings agencies and parents in general have relied too much on 'gut feel' and 'common knowledge' which time and again are proven with scientific research to be ill advisers"

    I would question the part of that which refers to ratings agencies. The BBFC board has a very specific set of criteria that determines the ratings they give. It is very rarely down to the personal opinion of the given reviewer.

    The following link is a PDF.
    http://ww w.bbfc.co.uk/downloads/pub/Guid...

  • trubadman #69 2 years ago

    @ ravendarph

    According to the law kids are allowed to play games recommended for a higher rating if their parents agree to this. My brother who is 16 has a sub-account and wanted to play MW2 online, so we rang up Sony and we had them take off the restrictions on his account for playing games online which are for higher ratings.

    Personally, i don't have a problem with children playing games for higher ages as long as their parents are well informed and have made a proper decision, rather than the people you get saying 'it's just a game, there shouldn't be any killing' etc, then complain about it later when they find out about the content of the games their kids are playing.

    As long as its sensible i don't see a problem with certain 15 rated games beeing played by 12 year olds and 12 rated played by 10 etc.

  • melch #70 2 years ago

    not even just the parents, young nipper in front of me in the queue at game at the weekend asked them if they had Left 4 Dead 2 which they prompty sold him despite the 18 cert on the front cover

    made me feel some shame that i was buying "i love the 80's"

  • jonobabes #71 2 years ago

    One time last christmas in a GAME I was asked for some ID after I tried to buy Madword and House of the Dead: Overkill on the Wii. Sadly I didn't have any ID on me and I couldn't purchase them. I'm actually 20. Kudos for the sales guy actually doing a good job but it was embarassing all the same!

  • StooMonster #72 2 years ago

    The current Labour government said today that if they win the election that they hope to lower the voting age to 16.

    Doesn't that mean they'll have to also lower the age of 18 games to 16? And also: movies, porn, drinking, driving, die fighting for your country, etc.?

    Or are they just planning on being hypocritical (as usual)?

  • makeamazing #73 2 years ago

    As a Gamer and a Parent I think that any kids that are underage playing games that are for example 18+ and get found out, the parents should be the ones fined.

    Guess it depends on what you class as kids, would you want a 17 year old parents fined?.. there is a fine line as others have said. I remember buying videos of Commando and Total Recall when i was about 16 or 17 and it didnt do me any harm (well depends on who you ask i suppose)... i have more faith in BBFC ratings than i do PEGI who seem to get things wrong alot (and lets not go on about their discrimination icon.. which is so wrong in so many ways).

    Actually i have more issues with stuff some channels on tv put before the 9pm watershed than with games, as at least with games the parent can make a decision (and its a decision best talked about with your kid if they want to play a game), while sometimes pre-watershed on TV you really dont know what to expect (there has been some dubious stuff on at 7 or 8 when the kids are up).
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 18:36

  • Les #74 2 years ago

    "I would question the part of that which refers to ratings agencies. The BBFC board has a very specific set of criteria that determines the ratings they give. It is very rarely down to the personal opinion of the given reviewer. "

    Didn't make myself clear I think. What I mean is that the very objective set of criteria that the BBCF bases its ratings on is itself primarily based on folk wisdom rather than more objective science. So while I don't question the 'relative' objectivity in using those criteria, I do question the criteria itself.

    E.g. for me it's not obvious that media actually affect a child's development. On the one hand our brain is perfectly capable of making the distinction between media and real life while on the other hand we use morals related to real life actions (often related to violence & sex) to regulate media.

    Or to put it another way: the fact that it's traumatizing for a child to see people get killed in real life doesn't mean that a child will be traumatized by watching a movie in which people are killed. The latter might cause a nightmare or two but people (and thus children) are rather resilient. Otherwise we would have gone extinct a long time ago.

  • skabba1972 #75 2 years ago

    I have 2 kids one is 4 and the other is 9. I dont have any problem with my 9 year old son playing MW2 I do have a problem with him playing GTA as its a different kind of violence. I am of the opinion that if a child is going to commit an act of violence against whoever then he will do it regardless of any game he is playing. Its not the game that causing them to be violent its the enviroment they are brought up in and the type of friend they play with. My 9 year old does gymnastics, he plays football and he trains in Muay Thai with me at my local club, he also is a member of the local Cubs. He is very occupied with other activities other than gaming and is very well rounded for it. These idiots who blame games for violent behaviour are in the same club who encourage no competative sport and let muslim fanatics run around britain shouting death to soldiers.

    There is no difference with playing MW than there is running around outside with a stick playing soldiers or watching BBC news and seeing all the images that appears on there. I do blame parents as well but I blame them for not teaching the right morals or setting a good example for there children to follow.
    Edited by 1 at 07/04/10 @ 22:23

  • Bluetooth #76 2 years ago

    Games, films even books certainly make it easier for kids to "practice" their violence streaks and give them ideas, whilst music (especially certain types) put them in the mood to act aggressive.

    But the fact remains; if your child is acting hyper, violent or aggressive, then take them off the damn console and stop them being influenced by violent media.

  • Bluetooth #77 2 years ago

    Games, films even books certainly make it easier for kids to "practice" their violence streaks and give them ideas, whilst music (especially certain types) put them in the mood to act aggressive.

    But the fact remains; if your child is acting hyper, violent or aggressive, then take them off the damn console and stop them being influenced by violent media.

  • Pacman8MyGhostkart #78 2 years ago

    @stoomaster

    You can join the army at 16 already.

  • zuljin #79 2 years ago

    @Bluetooth
    "Games, films even books certainly make it easier for kids to "practice" their violence streaks and give them ideas, whilst music (especially certain types) put them in the mood to act aggressive."

    Citation needed.

  • Hyoscine #80 2 years ago

    @kosigan - I worked in Game on Christmas; the amount of parents who came in specifically to buy GTA for their twelve year old kids was absurd. Without exception they all either said something along the lines of "Well, it's just a video game isn't it." or just looked offended when I explained the potential for prostitute killing etcetera, and then went ahead and bought it anyway. Pretty shitty parenting, IMO.

  • kangarootoo #81 2 years ago

    @Les

    "What I mean is that the very objective set of criteria that the BBCF bases its ratings on is itself primarily based on folk wisdom rather than more objective science"

    I agree there. The BBFC's ratings system is constantly updated based on consultations with the general public. You can't fault the principle of it really - consulting the public on a system that is primarily there is make the public happy - its just that as you say it is dressed up as fact and knowledge, when in fact it is really just based on whatever people feel strongly about at any given time (there are protections in there to stop it turning into a frequently updated conduit to popular outrage, but at its heart is is still "designed by commitee";). More a problem with democracy than the BBFC ratings system though.



    @Thought_Criminal

    I think that deep down many parents know they are scapegoating games and films, but they do so (if only subconsiously) because it absolves them of the responsibility of their failings.

    Who WOULDN'T wanty to blame a video game or film, if the alternative was to accept that their own apathy and/or stupidity had let down their own offspring in such a significant way that the remainder of their lives will suffer as a consequence?

    I'm not a father yet, but I will be one day (edit: not soon, I'm not expecting or anything :) ), and my biggest fear is that I get it wrong to such a degree that my kid is "lost" - that they end up going off the rails in a way that means I can't "get them back". I genuinely believe that won't happen, because in a nutshell I'm not a fucking idiot AND I care about being a good parent (the two most crucial parts imo), but part of caring means I still hold the fear (and maybe if I wasn't worried, that would be greater reason to be so).
    Edited by 1 at 08/04/10 @ 12:14

  • layleeloo #82 2 years ago

    It doesnt just fall with Parents either - It falls with RETAILERS also doesnt it. As per a strognly worded letter I wrote to Game Ltd regarding their lack of age rating eforcement, that they are more concerned about attachment rates like selling Guide books with 18 certificate games to minors, rather than enforcing the age certification. Thankfully they wrote me a 3 page letter back about my experiences and the two stores I saw such behaviour in were "under investigation". Whether or not that happened I do not know, but at least judging by their response they didnt take my complaint lightly. Funnily enough - it was GTA San Andreas when that came out and I qued up at the store at 8am for it, there were more underage kids (and im talking 12-15) buying it than adults. Was a disgrace
    Edited by 1 at 08/04/10 @ 12:17

  • Rob_B #83 2 years ago

    There does seem to be a lack of stores refusing sales to parents buying for their kids, I was under the impression that with reasonable suspicion stores could refuse the sale (after all any store can refuse any sale for whatever reason they want - exlcuding sexism/racism/etc) ?

    I think we all know the reasons why (sales would take a hit) but if the stores are a bit stricter surely that would make *some* difference?
    In answer to the parents who'd say 'I'll go and buy it from XX shop then' - in the words of the Stereophonics "Take your bag and shop down there"
    Edited by 1 at 09/04/10 @ 11:37