Braben: pre-owned is "damaging" market Comments by Robert Purchese

tough shit

Or they could just have a share of the used price from shops?

Or they could just have a share of the used price from shops?

Why should they? Do VW get a cut when I sell my car?

Sell the games for a decent price in the first place and the second-hand market wouldn't be so important.

Most large cities have had entire streets full of second-hand bookshops for over a century. Second-hand record shops have been a feature of our culture for half a century. Hell, auction houses have been selling second-hand art since the renaissance.

Why should games suddenly be exempt from the right of first sale which characterises every other creative medium? Why should the concepts of copyright and consumer rights suddenly be rewritten for this new medium?

This isn't to say that ideas like the cheap rental service won't work, but they're certainly not about to replace pre-owned sales.

here's an idea, and lambast me all ye want:

Game retails have to declare all second-hand game sales which have to go back to the publisher or developer.

@skillian & shinji

Yeah, true. Fuck 'em. Don't like it? Get a new job.

Wouldn't be so bad if the shops gave you a decent price for trading in, from a consumer pov. They give you £15 and then stick a sticker on and sell it for £30. Nice profit, probably more than on the original sale.

Might be damaging the market, but it DEFINATELY isn't damaging my pocket. Case in point: Assassin's Creed. Well worth £13, but would I pay full price for it? Screw that...

It's why I kind of like digital distribution, I have a couple of PSN games that I bought for £5 each and keep going back to, despite the fact that if I'd bought them on disc they'd probably be in the pre-owned section of Gamestation again by now...

The retails must be making an absolute killing on second hand sales. Why else would they so strongly encourage us to trade in our games.

It was just a musing!

It was just amusing!

/fixed

i can understand what he's saying, but the problem is, lets take bioshock as an example, theres absolutely NO reason to play it again when you're done.

Games need to be designed with:-

a) replayabilty in mind - for example gears of war - i still have have two years on and still play it
b) online elements
c) expandable content in mind

Otherwise, theres simply NO reason to go back to them

Trade in WONT go away, so its up to developers to develop games that combat boredom .

' . . . in which he talks about The Outsider'

Or rather the talks about *not* talking about the Outsider :P

Ditto. Tough fucking shit. I pay £39.99 for new games as it is, why shouldn't I be able to pick up older, used games for cheap.

Stop being so greedy and lower your original RRP prices then. Entice gamers with an attractive price and, if it's enjoyable / good quality - build-up / generate profit through DLC which every other game seems to have these days anyway.

Also, try releasing your game in the Summer - where months go by without even a half decent title arriving. You'll clean up!

They're never bloody happy are they.

If its not piracy, its pre-owned games. Greedy fatcats

Theft is also a factor. Street gangs shoplifting games can easily sell them at second hand stores, making quick and easy money. Also an issue reated to burglary, but to a lesser extent.

I predict that the problem will diminish as online distribution off all media (except litterature) become more wide-spread.

I think thats why they are pursuing digital distribtion so vigourously. ie no resale potential and no second-hand market.

Whereas I dont buy new games if possible (ok I got GTA IV for all my sins) and generally wait until they are at £20 mark, but no in hell am I paying £40 for a game that may be completed in a weekend.

Well, seeing games development first hand it is a pisser when people spend three years working on a game and then all the proceeds are eaten up by a retail chain.

I appreciate that the pre-owned market must hurt smaller developers like Frontier, but does he expect the basis of second-hand goods to be rewritten purely for the benefit of games developers?!

The only solution I can see is that publishers and developers make specific agreements with retailers so the retailers get the new stock in at a cheaper price, but the developers/publishers also get a cut of the second-hand profits. There's no point crying to us gamers; you need to approach the source who are making the profit from pre-owned.

I can see a system wherein when you first load a new game on your console it will only allow it to be played on that console unless you pay an unlocking fee to the makers.

I like to buy all my games new and I never trade them, I'm the only one, I guess.

As said already said games are overpriced. The games industry are always banging on about how they make more money than Hollywood, however I can by a new film for less then a £10 on DVD whereas even the cheapest new game costs around £30.

Cut the prices of new games encouraging gamers to pick up new titles and the second-hand market will lose a lot of it's worth and more cash will flow to developers. Win-win.

I think it comes down to cost with second hand games. I'm more likely to go for a cheaper second hand copy of the game than I am to pay full price, especially if the lunatic retailers are still charging 40 quid for the game which has been out for months and months. People buy second hand largely due to cost, so perhaps if developers of single player games with not too much replay value were to price their game in perspective to a game that has better longevity then maybe someone like me would pay 30 quid first time instead of waiting for the cheaper second hand alternative.

"single-player titles or those with less replay value."

Spend more time developing the game fully then. He might as well say

"I can't understand why people are trading in boring and linear titles instead of keeping them"

How many copies of Mario Kart or CoD4 do you see in the bargain bin? Exactly. Because they developed a fully fledged title that caters to a modern gamers needs. The days of Daytona USA died a long time ago you poor moneyless slave to modern society you.

Developer in "I wants more moneys!!!!"

Here is some news: I bought it. It's mine. I can do with it whatever I please. I can burn it, play it shit on it and even SELL it. The arrogance that you have to think that it shouldn't be my right to sell my game or purchase a 2nd hand game is absurd.

i dont really buy second hand games, as my local game usually put the price of second hand stuff at about £5 less than the new price, some times even being the same or higher than a new copy.

i do trade my game in at times, and it does bug me that they buy for like £15 and put it back out at £30-35. a 100% or higher mark up is a bit much. they should either give more for trade in or drop the price of the second hand stuff to make it even worth buying.

though the worst mark up i have seen from them was a copy of the darkness they bought in of this guy for £3 and two days later it was in the used section for £17

Can we organise game swap shops to be done outside of Game stores. Bet the manager would have a right fit as his £20 profit per game get sold outside the front door.

@shinji - but there are no second hand game shops. There are just game shops that are often trying to persuade people to buy second hand games in preference to new ones because it makes them more profit without returning anything to the developers. Waterstones don't try to sell you second-hand books over new ones. That's a big difference. People go into second hand bookshops and record stores looking for rarities and out-of-print books, and so forth. People go into Waterstones to buy the latest Harry Potter.

@ skillian

Why should they? Do VW get a cut when I sell my car?

No but they perhaps make money from servicing and selling parts for that car. Plus VW own a large part of the second hand trade in their cars anyway i.e. the dealerships. It's a completely different model.

This isn't a problem on the consumer side. Publishers pressing the margins on retailers forces them to push second hand games. But just like piracy these theoretical numbers seems to be taken as gospel by publishers.

Slap DRM on THEM!

PROBLEM SOLVED! Wooop!

It's the future and you know it!!

Vordred is right, it's not like devs are greedy and retailers (who nowdays make more money with 2nd hand rather than anything else!) are saints.
The money they pay for our games are obscenely low. I sold a game once - Oddworld - the guy looked at me and said "oooh, pretty old..., not so good..., er..., ok I'l give you 5 Eur." (like he was doing me a favor), 4 hours later it was on sale for 30.

Looking at the prices of some games nowadays it's no wonder people go for pre owned copies. I never bought pre owned games until last year. If a new game comes out for 25 or 30 pounds, no problem. It starts to hurt when I have to pay 35 though.

Another thing, especially appearent with Nintendo games: They simply don't get cheaper. There aren't many but the few GC games still on sale cost the same as they did when they came out years ago.

@moggsy

@ skillian

Why should they? Do VW get a cut when I sell my car?

No but they perhaps make money from servicing and selling parts for that car. Plus VW own a large part of the second hand trade in their cars anyway i.e. the dealerships. It's a completely different model.

Unless you bought a Rover/ MG ;)

No but they perhaps make money from servicing and selling parts for that car. Plus VW own a large part of the second hand trade in their cars anyway i.e. the dealerships. It's a completely different model.

What, like DLC? Also, what of people who trade-in old games to buy new?

Tough shit.

Movies, Music, Books, Cars and everything else manage just fine.

@shinji

Second hand books are usually grubby and tatty. Second hand games play the same as a new game. That's the difference.

For me, used games are off limits.

See, I like to buy games and keep them so that I can replay them at my leisure. I have a rather nice collection of video games from the Atari 2600 onwards which I would not have had if I had handed them in for some spare change.

However, that being said, the market would struggle a little bit if people could not exchange a couple of old games for a new one. The pricing of games for this generation of games machine is prohibitive to most people and swapping old games for new is one of the easiest ways for them to get the latest game.

I would discount music due to the Nazi-tastic Performing Rights Society screwing money out of any business with a radio.

This is why they love DRM, it ties the consumer up. You basically buy something and give up all rights as to what you do with it after your purchase.

This is why you'll see an increase in stripped-down games with increasing DLC. If I ever wanted to give away my CoD3 and the map packs to a friend, it wouldnt be possible, they'd have to buy the extra maps all over again.

Considering most games retailers seem to have their entire profit margin resting on pre-owned sales as they're making slim pickings on new sales, I'd say a lot of the specialist retailer presence on the high street at the moment is very heavily pre-owned dependant.

Any change or preventative measures to curb reselling would probably result in a reduction in the number of large stores like GAME and Gamestop, the knock on of that may not amount to much, but they are one of the primary ways of pushing PR to more casual users who don't subscribe to the gaming press and that in turn might make it harder to get some products the attention they need to sell.

It's a very tangled web, and sadly given the technology of current consoles I can see a very heavy handed "solution" being put about by publishers like EA - if they're prepared to give you 3 installs on a game you own, I don't think they'd blink at the idea of adding DRM to console games that ties a disk's serial number to your console if they really want to put a stop to preowned sales.

I only buy new games to reward the developer as much as possible. 2nd-hand games only rewards the retailers and they hike the prices up anyway. Viva la digital revolution!

Console gaming is dead.

@ aldo_14

You're right , DLC is a good way for devs to make money out of second hand sales. I still think they should get a percentage of the price GAME get for a pre-owned copy too though.

This is something Braben is going to have to accept.

"Wah, don't share your games, buy a new copy"

"causing all sorts of problems for single-player titles or those with less replay value."

The fact that the word value was used in this sentence says it all! Make games worth the £40-£50 price with a replay value to match! This is not the consumer’s problem or fault. Its developers and publishers who should be producing games that have VALUE!

how about adding some replay value then? Problem solved.

Greedy bastards.

I'm very uncomfortable with the thought of crooks like Game getting developers' money. I'm all for games increasingly relying exclusively on download services like Steam or Stardock to cut out the high street retailers and on top of that integrating MMO-style log ins to tie consumers to their purchases (with value added incentives like auto-patchers for registered consumers). Hand in hand with that I'd expect the cost of games to drop, as they become less dependant on conventional expensive marketing and distribution channels.

When are EG going to stop writing such stupid paraphrased inflamatory headlines? Taking this article on its own, Braben is actually talking about damage to the single player experience, going onto explain his view on the knock on effect to the sales.

Another point to add, if devs got a share of the second hand market, the price of new games could come down - everybody wins.

If GAME continue their current business model I fear in a few years time they will no longer exist as the devs will have moved over to digital distribution instead. It's their choice really.