Bizarre defends city recycling

By Tom Bramwell Published 31 July, 2007

PGR4's versions quite different.

Bizarre Creations has defended the decision to include several of the cities and tracks that featured in Project Gotham Racing 3 in the upcoming sequel, arguing that new weather conditions, cars and game modes justify their inclusion.

"We know that you guys and gals have all played these tracks to death, and a lot of you have already been sceptical that including the same cities again might be some kind of cop out. Well that's not the case," the developer's latest Studio Update states.

"As well as motorbikes (which drive totally differently and provide a new challenge for PGR veterans), there is also a much wider vehicle set this time around. It's not just 'life begins at 170mph' any more; this time there are slower vehicles to take to the track as well."

The developer also cites the huge variety of weather conditions available for each city - clear, light rain, heavy rain, snow, overcast, light fog, heavy fog, storm, icy and wet conditions. New game modes include Survivor and Superstar - the latter a case of earning a certain amount of "stars" through acquisition of Kudos points in a specific amount of time.

The latest Studio Update focuses mainly upon the locations in PGR4 and the steps Bizarre has taken to teach racers how to navigate them successfully and avoid pile-ups. Rumble strip and barrier placement, for example, have been paid a lot of attention.

"This subtle new track layout makes a really big difference when you actually drive around the circuits, leading you into and out of corners and avoiding pile-ups when you're halfway through," Bizarre says. Rumble strips have been extended outward, as one example, which gives you an idea of where to position yourself on the track as you approach corners. "I guess you could say this is our equivalent of Forza's green snake thing," the developer jokes.

On the flipside, the team has also included larger run-offs on hairpins - like the famous New York City one - so that somebody fouling it up on the outside or inside can be avoided.

Other items of note in the most recent update include news that point-to-point races have been removed because circuits fit PGR4's game modes better, as well as news of what else the "racification" team has been up to - as well as altering track layout for your pleasure, apparently they've been giving crowds your country's flag to wave, introducing trackside banners that highlight your current tournament, colouring in the barriers and giving spectators clothing appropriate to the weather.

For more, including a rundown on each of the 10 cities/locations featuring in PGR4, check out the full update. Alternatively, you can check out our PGR4 first impressions. The full game's due out in September.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (46) Latest comment 5 years ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Der_tolle_Emil #1 5 years ago

    Why is everyone dropping point to point races? I really enjoy them :/

  • mkreku #2 5 years ago

    I'm still waiting for Test Drive Unlimited 2. That's the only racing game that suits my taste nowadays. Enough of the enclosed tracks!

  • Zomoniac #3 5 years ago

    TDU rocked, but the missions were so irritating, with time limits that forced you to keep up speeds of 120 for ten minutes and if you clipped three cars it was game over. It never ceases to amaze me that a model can turn down a ride in my Enzo, yet when I turn up in some banged up F class she suddenly is in such a desperate rush to cross Hawaii in fifteen minutes.

  • Tiel #4 5 years ago

    What is the ratio of new to recycled?

  • Weezer #5 5 years ago

    Why not re-use the tracks from PGR 2? Edinburgh rocked!

  • Santino #6 5 years ago

    hell yeah bring back edinburgh, pgr2 was simply brilliant in all aspects, 3 was a bit disappointing in comparison.

  • BrokenSymmetry #7 5 years ago

    I don't mind recycled tracks. If they fix PGR3's most annoying problems (mainly the loading times, the hard-to-see cones, and the online lobby) I will be good for the next 2 years...

  • ruckus #8 5 years ago

    No point-to-point? Well that sucks... next they'll be saying that they've cut custom races and kill all interest I had in the game X(

  • niz #9 5 years ago

    "Why not re-use the tracks from PGR 2? Edinburgh rocked! "

    Yes! Especially Castle Eight and Lothian Road Eight Long. The Tour in Washington, D.C. was amazing as well. It would be great if those tracks were in PGR4 as unlockable bonus tracks or something.

    I really hope PGR4 is closer to PGR2 than PGR3.
    Edited by niz at 31/07/07 @ 11:08

  • SBfistfun #10 5 years ago

    "been giving crowds your country's flag to wave, introducing trackside banners that highlight your current tournament, colouring in the barriers and giving spectators clothing appropriate to the weather."

    ZOMFG next gen is here!

    /excretes sarcasm gas

  • Darren #11 5 years ago

    According to the OXM360 website, not all of the nine cities will have day and night tracks due to the problems with squeezing the two sets of textures onto a DVD. So already first-party Xbox 360 developers are having problems fitting their games as they intended them onto the 7.2 GB of DVD space. I know there's always the option of downloadable content but that comes at an extra cost which won't please everyone. Will this start to become a big problem for Xbox 360 games from now on, after all it's not reasonable to expect people to swap discs in a racing game... :?

  • DiscoMike #12 5 years ago

    You'd think given the developers geographical location, that they would have had a stab or making a liverpool track.

  • monkie_king #13 5 years ago

    @DiscoMike: nah, while the cars sat on the grid they'd all get their wheels nicked.

  • BaggyAnt #14 5 years ago

    I want San Fransico Back

  • Agent_Llama #15 5 years ago

    PGR2 was bloody awesome. Edinburgh and Moscow were fooking lovely. Well, the whole game was. *sigh*

  • captainrentboy #16 5 years ago

    If it did become a major problem Darren, I'd just buy a PS3 to go with my 360, I mean by the time that it could possibly become a MAJOR problem in 360 game development (Rather than just missing out on a night time mode on a few racing game tracks,''NOOOOOO'') I'd have had a good 2.5+ yrs fun out of my 360 anyway.
    It's not something that keeps me up awake, sweating, at night time to be honest.

  • speedtrax #17 5 years ago

    EG, can't believe you missed out that other news. That was a guaranteed 300+ comments thread bloodbath.

  • FooAtari #18 5 years ago

    It's Forza Motorsport 2 all over again...

    Except PGR not quite as bad, at least we get all the cities from PGR3 and as many new ones.

    Unlike Forza where you get all the shit tracks from the old game and a whole 3 new ones... Next gen kicks ass!

    Still I can't see 4 getting anywhere near PGR 2 which was one sweet game. Best console racer of last gen and best online game on Live.
    Edited by FooAtari at 31/07/07 @ 12:45

  • Hughes. #19 5 years ago

    heh, WON'T FIT ON DVD9 ZOMGZ!1!!

  • Darren #20 5 years ago

    @captainrentboy - "It's not something that keeps me up awake, sweating, at night time to be honest."

    It doesn't me either but then I own a PS3 as well. ;)

    With this and Rockstar criticisng the 360 last month for holding them back, it is clearly an issue for developers so that means future games will likely be compromised in some way whereas they wouldn't be if they were released on the PS3 say.

    The cynic in me says that the decision to stick with DVD was deliberate so it justifies releasing download content at a price on the Marketplace. Look at the stuff that GTA IV on the Xbox 360 is getting as a "bonus extra", how do you know that that wasn't originally planned to be in the game originally but dropped due to lack of space?

  • dsmx #21 5 years ago

    The reason why developers don't like point to point racers is that you have to code more and take up more space on the disk. Think about it a 10 minute point to point race will need 5 times more content than a 2 minute lap being lapped 5 times.

  • spongebob #22 5 years ago

    Guess they're rushing PGR4...

  • captainrentboy #23 5 years ago

    I just read all the replies over on Bizzare's website, regarding the lack of day and night on all courses, and yes whilst DVD is blamed for this omission, the developers replying in the thread also said that the game itself is twice the size of PGR3, add to that the ,disc space eating, weather cycles, and it was always going to be a slight chore fitting it on the format.
    Yes, yes, the PS3 COULD have fitted it all on a Blu-ray disc, but PGR is an MS exclusive, so it's never going to happen anyway :)

  • captainrentboy #24 5 years ago

    Anyway, shouldn't there be a ''360 SUXXORZ AND IS RIGHT DOOMED, DUE TO SHITTY DVD LIMITS, says Bizzare developer'' attention grabbing headline up the top by now?

  • spongebob #25 5 years ago

    Oh, I read this as well, from Joystiq (my new love... well, not really):

    "Posting in the official Bizarre Creations forum, a staff member noted, "You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD."

    That's some powerfully flammatory material there! Anyway, I guess they could've used two DVDs...

  • dsmx #26 5 years ago

    You can't use 2 disks in this game, amagine having to constantly switch disks every time a new track was needed, this is a bit of an extreme example but you get the idea

  • evild_edd #27 5 years ago

    Hmmm.. ignoring the disc-space argument (a bit old now); looking at the city list, I don't think there can be any concerns regarding recycling those from PGR3:
    • Macau, China
    • Las Vegas, USA
    • London, England
    • St Petersburg, Russia
    • Tokyo, Japan
    • New York City, USA
    • Shanghai, China
    • Quebec, Canada
    • Nurburgring, Germany
    • Michelin Test Track
    PGR 3 always felt like PGR2HD IMO. In a way, i almost see PGR4 as the 'proper' sequel. My only concern is that, with all the other titles coming out for 360, there's neither time in my calender, nor money in my wallet, for a PGR4 purchase... this year anyway!

  • Darren #28 5 years ago

    Agreed. You can get away with disc swapping in a linear game like an RPG hence Blue Dragon comes on THREE DVDs but it would totally ruin a sports or racing game. How would you get round the problem of people selecting different tracks for the online mode for example or the random city/track structure of the single player game?

  • ChromeMud #29 5 years ago

    I read a lot about procedural rendering and wonder why Bungie can't be the first developer to create these textures on the fly from one set of standard textures.This would reduce the need for disk space and add kudos to their programming abilities!
    I guess it's just science fiction or more likely costs too much money to develop.
    So scraping night scenes on a few tracks it is then.I'm still buying it though :D

  • Darren #30 5 years ago

    @evild_edd - I think PGR 3 was more like the first PGR, great but there was ample room for improvement. That's why I'm really looking forward to PGR 4, I believe it'll be to PGR 3 what PGR 2 was to the original PGR on the Xbox, i.e. a vastly improved game.

    It even has proper 720p graphics this time round and looks absolutely astounding, far better even that the Gran Turismo 5 Prologue stuff I've seen but then this game has sacrificed that game's 60 fps framerate for a 30 fps that allows the devs to add tons of detail and it shows. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this doesn't turn out to be the best racing game on any format to date.

  • captainrentboy #31 5 years ago

    When is it out anyway? Surely not as soon as September, is that just Microsoft's hopefull wishing?

  • m0thr4 #32 5 years ago

    I love the comment about the London circuit: "Watch out for the infamous London fog and rain... "

    Will this game also feature lovable "cockernees" gathered around a "Joanna" and "doing the Lambeth walk" by the side of the track?

    Perhaps Dick Van Dyke makes a guest appearance? Cor blimey guv'nor!
    Edited by m0thr4 at 31/07/07 @ 14:11

  • FlamingCarrot #33 5 years ago

    Can't help but think the bikes look great in replays but will be sub Moto GP in practise. Apropos of nothing the in car GT5 shots are stunning. Gives me a little faith in the PS3.

  • BBIAJ #34 5 years ago

    M$ say September, Bizarre say when it's ready...

  • dynarama #35 5 years ago

    I think the best news out of this is that they're putting in some slower cars - the Seat Leons in PGR 2 were great.

  • effinjamie #36 5 years ago

    DiscoMike
    31-Jul-07 11:33:27 You'd think given the developers geographical location, that they would have had a stab or making a liverpool track.


    Well apparently they did for PGR2 but it didn't make the final cut as it wasn't felt to have enough international appeal. pity

  • Darren #37 5 years ago

    Someone asked this on another forum, but why are Bizarre Creations having to create day and night textures for PGR 4, why aren't they using one set of textures and dynamic lighting, like what Oblivion and Saints Row have? Surely that would have saved on disc space and even allowed them to add an extra city or two? :?

  • speedtrax #38 5 years ago

    "Someone asked this on another forum, but why are Bizarre Creations having to create day and night textures for PGR 4, why aren't they using one set of textures and dynamic lighting, like what Oblivion and Saints Row have? Surely that would have saved on disc space and even allowed them to add an extra city or two? :?"

    It's because they're a bunch of amateurs. Pffft.

  • yegon #39 5 years ago

    >>>So already first-party Xbox 360 developers are having problems fitting their games as they intended them onto the 7.2 GB of DVD space.
    -----

    7.2gb? Surely they're 9.4gb or is there something 360 specific that I don't know about? Not sniping, just wondered is all.

    A possible solution (will never happen due to Cores though) would be 2 discs, one of which decompresses and installs a big chunk on the hdd, the other a play disc....be worryingly PC like though I suppose!
    Edited by yegon at 31/07/07 @ 19:23

  • yegon #40 5 years ago

    >>>It is 7.2Gb, because of th eway the Xbox 360 reads the DVD. It's called overhead.
    ---

    Aah, didn't know that. As I said, I wasn't sniping or being anal, I was just curious where the figure of 7.2gb came from, sounded odd.



    >>>And Yegon, the solution you propose can't be executed either, because the HDD is an OPTION for the Xbox 360. The Core users don't have one, remember? So devs can't rely on a HDD.
    --------

    C'mon, I did clearly say;

    "A possible solution (will never happen due to Cores though)".

    I knew nothing about the capacity issue, but I'm FULLY aware that the hdd is an option. Always a terrible move on MS's part imo.
    Edited by yegon at 31/07/07 @ 20:15

  • konnsky #41 5 years ago

    so whats the difference between a rain and wet weather then?

  • 3william56 #42 5 years ago

    "EG, can't believe you missed out that other news. That was a guaranteed 300+ comments thread bloodbath."

    Thank you EG for small mercies.

  • mkreku #43 5 years ago

    I must admit that the problems with using the old DVD format on the Xbox 360 popped up earlier than I expected.. I was thinking that maybe a year from now it would start becoming a real hassle.

    I never quite believed in procedural rendering of stuff. It saves space, sure, but try to get a game going with 60 fps and procedural rendering of the textures at the same time. Procedural anything needs a lot of horse power.

  • Darren #44 5 years ago

    konnsky - "so whats the difference between a rain and wet weather then?"

    At a guess, I say the former has you racing through an actual rain storm/shower and the latter just has dry weather but with a wet track and puddles, etc.

  • Darren #45 5 years ago

    mkreku - "I never quite believed in procedural rendering of stuff. It saves space, sure, but try to get a game going with 60 fps and procedural rendering of the textures at the same time. Procedural anything needs a lot of horse power."

    Well textures could be procedurally rendered and stored in advance on a hard drive but, of course, Microsoft made the silly mistake of releasing a hard drive-less model of the Xbox 360 that they HAVE to cater for so it was never an option. It could be done on the PS3 though, as all machines have an HDD, but it also uses much larger capacity BD discs so you have less need to use it anyway. In a lot of ways, Microsoft's insistence on rushing the 360 onto the market has not only led to a poorly designed machine (which they've admitted to) but also one which lacks future-proofing. Devs might be doing OK now but what will happen in two years time when PS3 developers are churning out games that use 20-30 GB for most games? I think the Xbox 360 might start to struggle a bit then and we'll either end up with multiple disc games (not a problem if the game is linear) or shorter games altogether with publishers selling more downloadable stuff to make up for it. End result is that gaming will likely become more expensive for us 360 users. :(

  • ChromeMud #46 5 years ago

    Well I've had my 360 for 2 years and it's providing good entertainment and will carry on for some time yet.
    When PS3's drop to a cheaper price and some good games using its full potential
    get released,then I may just bag one of them too but I don't see that happening until Christmas 2008 or later...
    The 360 is a good choice for another 2 years but after that,the PS3 will probably outshine it.It will be interesting to see what Microsoft will do to counter developers complaints about future game development.