BioShock rescued shooters, says Levine

By Rob Fahey Published 4 August, 2008

"These games had never made any money."

2K's Ken Levine has told Eurogamer he reckons BioShock has rescued the shooter genre by opening up a brand new market.

"I can pretty much guarantee to you that if BioShock wasn't successful, there never would have been another game like this," Levine told us in an exclusive interview. "I don't even know how we convinced people to pay for BioShock. These games had never made any money - everybody told us when we were pitching BioShock, sounds like a great idea, you'll sell 150,000 units - next!"

Levine was responding to a question about the player response to BioShock - in particular, the criticism from some players that the game was less complex or challenging than they'd hoped. He doesn't agree with that assertion, and thinks hardcore fans of the genre should focus on the positives.

"Honestly, really deep down, we wanted to popularise this kind of gameplay that we've been attached to for so long," he explained. "If the first iteration of it was a tiny bit simpler than System Shock 2... Look, how many of these type of games do you think are going to be made now, compared to how many were going to be made before? It took us how many years to get this game green-lit?

"Now, future games, competitors' games, our games... We can build upon millions of people's knowledge of the genre. How many people had played these kind of games before? 300,000, 400,000 - maybe? Now millions of people, because of this game, have played this type of game."

Levine reckons this situation is similar to RTS games - arguably a relatively obscure genre which has become a bankable, solid performer thanks to a large audience familiar with its conventions and appeal.

"Go back and play Dune 2, and now look at them," he said. "They have build queues, all the complexity that you can have in games like Company of Heroes, with cover and stuff like that... It's because a system was popularised and people were willing to invest in it with confidence that there was going to be an audience.

"Before, as great as System Shock 2 and Deus Ex were, nobody bought them. We wanted to crack that. I think now, the sky's the limit for how deep these games can go."

Picture of Rob.

About Rob Fahey

Rob Fahey is a former editor of GamesIndustry.biz who spent several years living in Japan and probably still has a mint condition Dreamcast Samba de Amigo set.

Read more articles from Rob by visiting the Rob Fahey archive page.

You may also like...

Comments (57) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • McBradders #1 4 years ago

    What the fuck is with the headline?

    "Rescued Shooters"?

    Where does it say that in the article posted, as in where did Levine specifically say that?

    Sensationalist much, Eurogamer?
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 10:14

  • Britesparc Verified Creative, ITV #2 4 years ago

    I think the headline's a bit misleading. It should be "BioShock rescued shooters with RPG elements", as what he's saying is complex FPRPGs like DX and System Shock weren't mass-market friendly, but by simplifying the stat element, BioShock has made them popular. Which I suppose is true, and it's a great game in its own right.

    Hopefully they won't ruin it with a string of sequels...

  • zoidberg #3 4 years ago

    This is just plain bullshit.

  • bengray66 #4 4 years ago

    I'm getting sick of this guy.

    He released a mediocre game (with the worst ending ever), at about the right time when there was nothing else out, and won't stop fucking banging on about it. COD4 did so much more for FPS than BioShock did.


  • Zomoniac #5 4 years ago

    For fuck's sake! It's a FPS with interesting atmospheric background noise in which every ten minutes you have to press A or B to dictate the 'fate' of one of 30 indentical zombie girls. Yes it had good atmosphere, but Halo did story better and GTA4 did moral decision making better. The reason it sold well it because it was the only half-decent game out in a dried-up August where the releases had been sparse and weak for a while. If they'd released it 6 weeks later in the back end of September it would've sold about 50 copies.

  • Agent_Llama #6 4 years ago

    Does he ever stop? The more he goes on, the less and less inclined I am to ever play Bioshock again... Enough already.

  • gamefan #7 4 years ago

    "BioShock rescued shooters, says Levine "

    Where does he say that???

    As with all other posters, Eurogamer tabloid headline and, mr levine si talking out out of his bum

  • Santino #8 4 years ago

    to me its just another fps but with shooting that felt a bit 'off', and instead of walking over an enemy to pick up what they dropped u have to press a button to take the stuff. i really do not understand the hype it received.

  • zoidberg #9 4 years ago

    I re-read it. Who the hell does this guy think he is? Bioshock was good, I'll give him that, but it wasn't MONUMENTAL, it didn't SAVE anything, Deus Ex or System Shock 2 ARE classics and he is UP HIS OWN ARROGANT arse with this!

    Mass-market my ass! Of course Bioshock "saved shooters'... if that means that it made him filthy rich instead of just recouping the investment. A perfect game would've sold 150.000 copies and would've allowed them to keep making games... a good game has millions sold equals a private estate for everyone including the doorman at 2K Boston. Fine, I get it. But this guy let it all go to his head!

    Has he ever heard of Valve? They could do a System Shock/Deus Ex shooter and it would sell millions.

    Edit: spelling.
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 10:20

  • nickthegun #10 4 years ago

    I think thats pretty overstating a lot of the gameplay elements.

    Because im pretty sure 'minor customisation and endless fetch quests' had been done before.

    I think 'hundreds of the same enemy who charge headlong at you' has been touched on too.....

    Thats not to say its a bad game, by any means, but the core concepts seemed to have been dumbed down to the point that its just any other shooter with a very good story.

  • Farfarer #11 4 years ago

    System Shock 2 and Deus Ex were great because they were complex, they forced the player to make lasting decisions - and not the lone black/white kill little sisters one - but real and irrevocable decisions about the player themselves and how they would interact with the world around them.

    BioShock took an FPS/RPG and shaved any RPG elements off it but didn't overhaul the shoddy FPS combat. That's not an achievement to be proud of and it does nothing for FPS/RPG games.
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 10:38

  • Les #12 4 years ago

    It's still a rather crap game that in the midst of all the crap that's being released on 360 and PS3 seemed a little less crap than the rest but crap none the less. About as overhyped as Halo2/3 and GTA IV.

  • Thalanos #13 4 years ago

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and believe what he's saying.

    Bioshock was successful so publishers are now more likely to finance games in the same vein. What's not to agree with?

  • Evolution #14 4 years ago

    Every other day Levine seems to say something... bizarre.

  • Triggerhappytel #15 4 years ago

    I kind of agree with what he's saying (basically that the likes of Deus Ex 3 would never be in development if it weren't for Bioshock's success), but he does seem like a bit of an arrogant prick. Get over yourself, already.

  • hiddenranbir #16 4 years ago

    Yeah. Valve were really in the crapper with Half Life.

    Thank you Levine! Because of you I know that I will get HL episode 3. OH THANK YOU!

  • Stuz359 #17 4 years ago

    Read the article. He doesn't wax lyrical about how amazing his game is or anything like that. He just said that Bioshock opened the door for more innovation and more complex FPS offerings in the future by selling so well at retail. That's true, probably more games are being given a chance now with more complex elements instead of being watered down to suit publishers wants.

  • JediMasterMalik #18 4 years ago

    Regardless of how well it sold, Deus Ex was a far far better game than Bioshock was.

  • andromeda #19 4 years ago

    i too wish he'd shut his arrogant cakehole, but i still stand by Bioshock as being one of the greatest games of this gen.
    I'll never forget that moment when i realised that the opening cutscene has ended and i could swim thru the flaming flotsam and jetsam, looking back to see the tail of the airliner groaning into the depths.
    sorry bit,pedantic there, but that kind of greatness sticks...
    Edited by 1 at 04/08/08 @ 11:07

  • DFawkes #20 4 years ago

    I suppose he did allow a bit more thoughtful shooters to get released, but how many of those are there? Most are the same old shooters, just on a larger scale, and they've never been at risk.

  • loopy #21 4 years ago

    "Read the article. He doesn't wax lyrical about how amazing his game is or anything like that. He just said that Bioshock opened the door for more innovation and more complex FPS offerings in the future by selling so well at retail. That's true, probably more games are being given a chance now with more complex elements instead of being watered down to suit publishers wants."

    That's what I took from it too.

    Yes, I think he's overstating the impact of his own game somewhat, but he does have a point about it possibly helping to get publishers to at least consider that genre as a financially viable proposition in the future.

  • muscleblade #22 4 years ago

    @Les

    You do hate games dont you. And have you even played Halo 3 not owning a 360?

  • Zomoniac #23 4 years ago

    But it isn't a more thoughtful or innovative shooter than any of the other good ones. It was less thoughtful, innovate and successful than Halo 3. So in terms of what it will 'do' to the industry, it's irrelevant.

  • Azazel #24 4 years ago

    ^ hehe

  • TheNinkyNonk #25 4 years ago

    Oh do get over youself and your game, Mr. Levine

  • Stoatboy #26 4 years ago

    Bioshock's set in a failed undersea art deco city turned mad and bad, where you get to kill little girls to fuel your own advancement.

    Getting that greenlit and funded to release was a hell of an achievement, given that most FPS fans only seem to want more greyish-brown space marine and WW2 games.

    If only one more game with a premise as interesting as Bioshock's gets made because of it, it'll be a triumph.

  • Quint2020 #27 4 years ago

    Now maybe they'll make Deus Ex 3 you know good?

    Probably not though...

  • TitusCrow #28 4 years ago

    I think he is claming he had to re- educate a population come to the game's world since 2000 through the consoles and that a kind of "dumbening" had happend, thus no one was ready for sys shock 2 or deus ex. Before the baby steps of bioshock had "enlightened" then to such basic concepts, as story and equipment interaction with enviroment...

    either he has come over totally wrong or he needs to stick to making games and let some one else speak.

    when game developers act like politicians and make games for the worst version of human understanding and intelect then it slightly gets me down.. dont presume we arent ready for something yet, the success of a great game is to take complex ideas and make them accessible.

    This is a philosophy of dispair in a lot of ways - try telling will right we arent ready for the big ideas!

  • kangarootoo #29 4 years ago

    Some of what he says makes plain sense. And tbh, I think a lot of grumpy people in this thread are attributing arrogance to Levine that his actual words don't warrant.

    Bioshock was hard to pitch, because games of that type hadn't made money for years. But it got made, and sold really well. As a result, more games of the same type will have an easier time getting funding in the future.

    What part of that do people have a problem with?

    The only question I might raise about Levine;s assertions is that Bioshock to some small degree had its path already laid by Oblivion. Oblivion opened up RPG games to non-RPG fans in a way that nothing (that I can recall) had done previously. Oblivion had adverts on the side of buses and on terrestrial TV ffs. I don't think even FFVII had that.

  • Fab4 #30 4 years ago

    I saved the world, and I only had 14hrs to do it in.

  • RedSparrows #31 4 years ago

    'COD4 did so much more for FPS than BioShock did.'

    I don't want to argue about Bioshock, but I do want to argue about CoD4. That game took mechanics present in CoD ONE, tuned them up, made them prettier, and added M16s for the gun-pervs, and then an Xp system to a great multiplayer, and somehow it's hailed as being the greatest thing of all time. No chance, not in hell.

  • PlugMonkey #32 4 years ago

    "COD4 did so much more for FPS than BioShock did."

    Yes it did. But then, that's not what Levine or the article says, is it?

    Do you think EG post the sensationalist headlines just so when you come to the comments section you can tell apart the morons who haven't bothered to read the actual article?

  • ekko #33 4 years ago

    So... now you've opened up the market I guess the next Bioshock (or it's spiritual successor) will be a more complex and less broken?

  • RedSparrows #34 4 years ago

    Bioshock wasn't broken. It might have got repetitive, but it wasn't broken.

    I'm not sure why some people hate it so much; compared to most of the overhyped games this generation, it has delivered more.

  • kangarootoo #35 4 years ago

    Because some people just hate everything. It makes life easier for them, and avoid disappointment.

  • sneetch #36 4 years ago

    Why are people shouting at him? Shout at Eurogamer; they're the ones putting words in his mouth.

    What he said is quite reasonable; no-one though BioShock would sell, it did now publishing companies will be more inclined to take a chance on similar games.

  • Stuz359 #37 4 years ago

    Just to talk about repetitiveness in games does anyone remember the library from Halo?

  • WJF #38 4 years ago

    @Stuz Or 'Every level in Halo'

  • Duke_Red #39 4 years ago

    Deus Ex rocks (+Bioshock)

    You all saw it!

  • bonker #40 4 years ago

    Well it didn't do anything for my perception of shooters - I have zero interest in FPS and Bioshock was top of my wanted list for a looong time until the previews/reviews revealed it as just-another-shooter with fab art direction ...

  • Duke_Red #41 4 years ago

    a la Bender (futrama)

  • Duke_Red #42 4 years ago

    @ Bonker

    It had an interesting story u T**T

  • kinky_mong #43 4 years ago

    Regardless of whether Levine has delusions of grandeur or Eurogamer are putting words into his mouth, regardless of whether you thought Bioshock was "Game Of The Year" or a run of the mill FPS with half hearted RPG elements tacked on, and regardless of whether you thought Bioshock was a triumph of moral decisions in gaming or a simple case of pressing one of two buttons every now and then to decide which 1 minute ending you see, ANYONE who says Halo has a better story than Bioshock is a fucking idiot.

  • andywilkie35 #44 4 years ago

    kinky mong

    +1!!

  • silke #45 4 years ago

    My god, when will this fellow shut his trap? He's been going on and on about how very different Bioshock were and how it never could have been a success for over a year. And now this. Well, I still see a game with guns and moody atmosphere Mr. Levine. Now, please tell me, when didn't the public appreciate those parameters? Oh, you're refering to System Shock and Deus Ex? Well, neither System Shock nor Deus Ex had the PR that your game had. Which actually only proves one true thing: that with good PR, you can sell anything. And if that game DOES include weapons, a first person perspective, and some quality; your chance for success just went up.

    Come back when you've made something a bit different, like Bangai-O Spirits, sell through the fucking roof.

  • Tomo #46 4 years ago

    Don't think the headline is TOO bad this time. Mildly misleading perhaps.

    The guy does need to drink a tall glass of shut up juice though. He has far too much to say.

  • moggsy #47 4 years ago

    I'm really struggling to see how that headline fits with this article?

  • NKSR #48 4 years ago

    the more i read Eurogamer the more it sounds like The Inquirer

  • Fusey #49 4 years ago

    I wish this guy would just shut up.

  • Freek #50 4 years ago

    EG; turning misquoting into a fine art form!

  • Miniu #51 4 years ago

    Stalker had much more RPG elements then Bioshock and was much better game .
    But it wasnt on consoles so nowadays its like it doesnt count :(

  • YourMessageHere #52 4 years ago

    Both CoD4 and the Halo games are deeply, deeply traditional FPS games which do absolutely nothing new, simply update a tried and tested mechanic and do so well. They do more for 'shooters' than Bioshock, but Bioshock is not a 'shooter', it's an FPSRPG that leans more heavily on shooting than most others of the type. Bioshock isn't very innovative either, in that (as Levine pretty much admits there) it's kind of Diet System Shock 2 in a glitzy Art Deco dress, but he's right to say that it's opening up the FPSRPG genre to a much wider audience than it was ever likely to see without Bioshock. I can never understand why more FPSRPG games like this aren't made, given that they are among the most memorable, involving, atmospheric and impressive that certainly I and likely many others have ever played. Not sure he's right about nobody buying Deus Ex, though, I did and so did all my friends...

    Miniu, I feel your frustration.

  • Les #53 4 years ago

    "but i still stand by Bioshock as being one of the greatest games of this gen."

    Doesn't mean much given the poor quality of stuff that's been released so far. One shit HD game after the other gets released but as long as the hardcore pixelwhores keep buying them and blindly buy into each and every hype the publishers won't complain...

  • Stuz359 #54 4 years ago

    Bioshock deserves to be lauded. It is a great game. Thre problem is that expectations were built up too high.
    It's like when you are a kid waiting at christmas for that one toy. You have seen it in the catalogue and longed for it for months and months. Then when you finally get it, the box is more interesting. Bioshock is like that, you were expecting so much from it and it fell short. People did not dislike Bioshock because it was a bad game, it was because it did not live up to expectations and expectations were ever so high

  • AlphaOmega #55 4 years ago

    If any recent game saved the shooter, it was Stalker.

  • peppergomez #56 4 years ago

    you petty spoilt little haters. quit ur fuckin' whining and accomplish something of value.
    Edited by 1 at 05/08/08 @ 01:33

  • Waldo #57 4 years ago

    BioShock is just Requiem: Avenging Angel set underwater.