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BioShock rescued shooters, says Levine News
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by
Rob Fahey
2K's Ken Levine has told Eurogamer he reckons BioShock has rescued the shooter genre by opening up a brand new market.
"I can pretty much guarantee to you that if BioShock wasn't successful, there never would have been another game like this," Levine told us in an exclusive interview. "I don't even know how we convinced people to pay for BioShock. These games had never made any money - everybody told us when we were pitching BioShock, sounds like a great idea, you'll sell 150,000 units - next!"
Levine was responding to a question about the player response to BioShock - in particular, the criticism from some players that the game was less complex or challenging than they'd hoped. He doesn't agree with that assertion, and thinks hardcore fans of the genre should focus on the positives.
"Honestly, really deep down, we wanted to popularise this kind of gameplay that we've been attached to for so long," he explained. "If the first iteration of it was a tiny bit simpler than System Shock 2... Look, how many of these type of games do you think are going to be made now, compared to how many were going to be made before? It took us how many years to get this game green-lit?
"Now, future games, competitors' games, our games... We can build upon millions of people's knowledge of the genre. How many people had played these kind of games before? 300,000, 400,000 - maybe? Now millions of people, because of this game, have played this type of game."
Levine reckons this situation is similar to RTS games - arguably a relatively obscure genre which has become a bankable, solid performer thanks to a large audience familiar with its conventions and appeal.
"Go back and play Dune 2, and now look at them," he said. "They have build queues, all the complexity that you can have in games like Company of Heroes, with cover and stuff like that... It's because a system was popularised and people were willing to invest in it with confidence that there was going to be an audience.
"Before, as great as System Shock 2 and Deus Ex were, nobody bought them. We wanted to crack that. I think now, the sky's the limit for how deep these games can go."
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McBradders
04/08/08 @ 09:09
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What the fuck is with the headline?
"Rescued Shooters"? Where does it say that in the article posted, as in where did Levine specifically say that? Sensationalist much, Eurogamer?
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most recently on 04/08/08 @ 10:14
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Britesparc
04/08/08 @ 09:11
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I think the headline's a bit misleading. It should be "BioShock rescued shooters with RPG elements", as what he's saying is complex FPRPGs like DX and System Shock weren't mass-market friendly, but by simplifying the stat element, BioShock has made them popular. Which I suppose is true, and it's a great game in its own right.
Hopefully they won't ruin it with a string of sequels... |
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For fuck's sake! It's a FPS with interesting atmospheric background noise in which every ten minutes you have to press A or B to dictate the 'fate' of one of 30 indentical zombie girls. Yes it had good atmosphere, but Halo did story better and GTA4 did moral decision making better. The reason it sold well it because it was the only half-decent game out in a dried-up August where the releases had been sparse and weak for a while. If they'd released it 6 weeks later in the back end of September it would've sold about 50 copies.
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Agent_Llama
04/08/08 @ 09:16
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Does he ever stop? The more he goes on, the less and less inclined I am to ever play Bioshock again... Enough already.
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I re-read it. Who the hell does this guy think he is? Bioshock was good, I'll give him that, but it wasn't MONUMENTAL, it didn't SAVE anything, Deus Ex or System Shock 2 ARE classics and he is UP HIS OWN ARROGANT arse with this!
Mass-market my ass! Of course Bioshock "saved shooters'... if that means that it made him filthy rich instead of just recouping the investment. A perfect game would've sold 150.000 copies and would've allowed them to keep making games... a good game has millions sold equals a private estate for everyone including the doorman at 2K Boston. Fine, I get it. But this guy let it all go to his head! Has he ever heard of Valve? They could do a System Shock/Deus Ex shooter and it would sell millions. Edit: spelling.
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most recently on 04/08/08 @ 10:20
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nickthegun
04/08/08 @ 09:33
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I think thats pretty overstating a lot of the gameplay elements.
Because im pretty sure 'minor customisation and endless fetch quests' had been done before. I think 'hundreds of the same enemy who charge headlong at you' has been touched on too..... Thats not to say its a bad game, by any means, but the core concepts seemed to have been dumbed down to the point that its just any other shooter with a very good story. |
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System Shock 2 and Deus Ex were great because they were complex, they forced the player to make lasting decisions - and not the lone black/white kill little sisters one - but real and irrevocable decisions about the player themselves and how they would interact with the world around them.
BioShock took an FPS/RPG and shaved any RPG elements off it but didn't overhaul the shoddy FPS combat. That's not an achievement to be proud of and it does nothing for FPS/RPG games.
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most recently on 04/08/08 @ 10:38
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Triggerhappytel
04/08/08 @ 09:59
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I kind of agree with what he's saying (basically that the likes of Deus Ex 3 would never be in development if it weren't for Bioshock's success), but he does seem like a bit of an arrogant prick. Get over yourself, already.
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hiddenranbir
04/08/08 @ 10:01
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Yeah. Valve were really in the crapper with Half Life.
Thank you Levine! Because of you I know that I will get HL episode 3. OH THANK YOU! |
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Read the article. He doesn't wax lyrical about how amazing his game is or anything like that. He just said that Bioshock opened the door for more innovation and more complex FPS offerings in the future by selling so well at retail. That's true, probably more games are being given a chance now with more complex elements instead of being watered down to suit publishers wants.
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JediMasterMalik
04/08/08 @ 10:03
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Regardless of how well it sold, Deus Ex was a far far better game than Bioshock was.
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i too wish he'd shut his arrogant cakehole, but i still stand by Bioshock as being one of the greatest games of this gen.
I'll never forget that moment when i realised that the opening cutscene has ended and i could swim thru the flaming flotsam and jetsam, looking back to see the tail of the airliner groaning into the depths. sorry bit,pedantic there, but that kind of greatness sticks...
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most recently on 04/08/08 @ 11:07
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"Read the article. He doesn't wax lyrical about how amazing his game is or anything like that. He just said that Bioshock opened the door for more innovation and more complex FPS offerings in the future by selling so well at retail. That's true, probably more games are being given a chance now with more complex elements instead of being watered down to suit publishers wants."
That's what I took from it too. Yes, I think he's overstating the impact of his own game somewhat, but he does have a point about it possibly helping to get publishers to at least consider that genre as a financially viable proposition in the future. |
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muscleblade
04/08/08 @ 10:16
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@Les
You do hate games dont you. And have you even played Halo 3 not owning a 360? |
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Bioshock's set in a failed undersea art deco city turned mad and bad, where you get to kill little girls to fuel your own advancement.
Getting that greenlit and funded to release was a hell of an achievement, given that most FPS fans only seem to want more greyish-brown space marine and WW2 games. If only one more game with a premise as interesting as Bioshock's gets made because of it, it'll be a triumph. |
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I think he is claming he had to re- educate a population come to the game's world since 2000 through the consoles and that a kind of "dumbening" had happend, thus no one was ready for sys shock 2 or deus ex. Before the baby steps of bioshock had "enlightened" then to such basic concepts, as story and equipment interaction with enviroment...
either he has come over totally wrong or he needs to stick to making games and let some one else speak. when game developers act like politicians and make games for the worst version of human understanding and intelect then it slightly gets me down.. dont presume we arent ready for something yet, the success of a great game is to take complex ideas and make them accessible. This is a philosophy of dispair in a lot of ways - try telling will right we arent ready for the big ideas! |
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kangarootoo
04/08/08 @ 10:59
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Some of what he says makes plain sense. And tbh, I think a lot of grumpy people in this thread are attributing arrogance to Levine that his actual words don't warrant.
Bioshock was hard to pitch, because games of that type hadn't made money for years. But it got made, and sold really well. As a result, more games of the same type will have an easier time getting funding in the future. What part of that do people have a problem with? The only question I might raise about Levine;s assertions is that Bioshock to some small degree had its path already laid by Oblivion. Oblivion opened up RPG games to non-RPG fans in a way that nothing (that I can recall) had done previously. Oblivion had adverts on the side of buses and on terrestrial TV ffs. I don't think even FFVII had that. |
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RedSparrows
04/08/08 @ 11:07
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'COD4 did so much more for FPS than BioShock did.'
I don't want to argue about Bioshock, but I do want to argue about CoD4. That game took mechanics present in CoD ONE, tuned them up, made them prettier, and added M16s for the gun-pervs, and then an Xp system to a great multiplayer, and somehow it's hailed as being the greatest thing of all time. No chance, not in hell. |
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PlugMonkey
04/08/08 @ 11:09
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"COD4 did so much more for FPS than BioShock did."
Yes it did. But then, that's not what Levine or the article says, is it? Do you think EG post the sensationalist headlines just so when you come to the comments section you can tell apart the morons who haven't bothered to read the actual article? |
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RedSparrows
04/08/08 @ 11:20
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Bioshock wasn't broken. It might have got repetitive, but it wasn't broken.
I'm not sure why some people hate it so much; compared to most of the overhyped games this generation, it has delivered more. |
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kangarootoo
04/08/08 @ 11:27
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Because some people just hate everything. It makes life easier for them, and avoid disappointment.
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I think someone is severely underestimating the piracy involved for PC games (even in the past) and how the successful marketing of Bioshock really sold the game were none of the games of the same style had a similar effort in marketing.
It's not so much the game mechanics that are a success but rather the theme, the setting, the introduction and some of the genius characters/opponents. It could really have been more complex and people would have been fine, it could have been less complex and had much less combat and it still would have been fine. People don't know the full product they are buying. There's only the response to it you can go on. |
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kinky_mong
04/08/08 @ 12:06
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Regardless of whether Levine has delusions of grandeur or Eurogamer are putting words into his mouth, regardless of whether you thought Bioshock was "Game Of The Year" or a run of the mill FPS with half hearted RPG elements tacked on, and regardless of whether you thought Bioshock was a triumph of moral decisions in gaming or a simple case of pressing one of two buttons every now and then to decide which 1 minute ending you see, ANYONE who says Halo has a better story than Bioshock is a fucking idiot.
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My god, when will this fellow shut his trap? He's been going on and on about how very different Bioshock were and how it never could have been a success for over a year. And now this. Well, I still see a game with guns and moody atmosphere Mr. Levine. Now, please tell me, when didn't the public appreciate those parameters? Oh, you're refering to System Shock and Deus Ex? Well, neither System Shock nor Deus Ex had the PR that your game had. Which actually only proves one true thing: that with good PR, you can sell anything. And if that game DOES include weapons, a first person perspective, and some quality; your chance for success just went up.
Come back when you've made something a bit different, like Bangai-O Spirits, sell through the fucking roof. |
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