BBFC denies political pressure News

This thread can kiss my ass. My fingers are getting tired :)

And the last thing we want to do is promote young people!

@lavalant

couldn't agree more. I have heard nothing in the description of this game to suggest it is anyworse than other forms of media dealing with the same subject.

Watched hostel 2 last night... Holy crap! Their banning Manhunt 2 over that?! Cutting someones bollox off is ok then?!

I find the BBFC to be very fair. If they're saying Manhunt 2 is too violent to release as it currently stands then I respect that decision.

"Watched hostel 2 last night... Holy crap! Their banning Manhunt 2 over that?! Cutting someones bollox off is ok then?! "

you sort of missed the point watching is different to performing the action (like what was planned in the Wii).

im sorry but this game would have been shit just like the 1st no fuss

@ lavalant and @ bushwod

Shut up, get a clue. This has little to do with the BBFC treating games as intrinsically different to movies and books.

As mentioned in the other thread, movies in particular - especially 'Hostel' which you seem so fond of wheeling out - are much more strictly controlled at points of sale and rental, in shops, cinemas and shops such as Blockbuster.

Therefore, the BBFC has to take into account the fact that little 6 year old Johnny is far, far more likely to get his hands on an 18-rated Manhunt 2 than sneak his way into the local Odeon and watch Hostel. Once the retail-games industry actually pulls its finger out and behaves responsibly, enforcing the LAW, then the BBFC would probably allow a game like Manhunt 2.

Unless, of course, the content was actually so depraved they couldn't justify it under any circumstances. I mean, after all, they HAVE played the game through, whereas both of you have not.

Amazing how that doesn't stop you from being experts on it though, isn't it?

Really, banning things and censorship is not the answer. I don't particularly care for manhunt, but I have no wish to see a game banned from sale. If you cannot control the point of sale then do something about that. Don't ban the game because you don't like the content.

"Once the retail-games industry actually pulls its finger out and behaves responsibly, enforcing the LAW, then the BBFC would probably allow a game like Manhunt 2."

Its not really the shops fault, but parents. I worked in a games shop and so many times I would tell parents an 18 game isn't suitable for their 8 year old or whatever, sometimes they would listen, but most would insist on you selling them the game. Legally you can't refuse to sell the game to the parent, and it's surprsing how many of them kicked up a right fuss at your suggestion that they shouldnt buy it.

If anything needs to be done its TV ad's educating parents of what 18 rated games are really like. Then parents who wouldn't dream of letting their kids watch 18 movies might actually realise 18 games arent suitable either.

@muftak:
Stop using the past tense...
Just because the UK won't sell it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

Watched hostel 2 last night... Holy crap! Their banning Manhunt 2 over that?! Cutting someones bollox off is ok then?!

Do you actually see everything that is in the movie? By that I mean, do you ACTUALLY see a mans testicles being cut off? I've found time and time again that so-called horrific movies actually imply more than they show, yet are clever enough to make the viewer think that they actually viewed everything in specific detail. If you study the first Hostel enough then you will notice that you actually see very little.

I dont like manhunt but it proves the BBFC dont class games in the same boat as movies

You've seen enough of Manhunt 2 to make a decision on this then, I presume? They are treated in the same way, but as a rule I would suggest that games don't really work on the story/message/art as much as many films. From reading the BBFC statement it sounds like Manhunt 2 is violence for violence sake with absolutely no deviation from that. Very very few films ever go that far, most put it in a wider context at the very least. Sure films like Hostel are pushing the boundaries, but even that (apparently) has some interesting subtext.

Had no real intention to buy this game after the first one turned out to be shit.

Now I'll go to the ends of the earth to play it and find out what all the fuss is about.

"Therefore, the BBFC has to take into account the fact that little 6 year old Johnny is far, far more likely to get his hands on an 18-rated Manhunt 2 than sneak his way into the local Odeon and watch Hostel."

This is pure bollox. What's the point of putting age ratings on anything, if they have to take into account little 6 year old johnny that is going to somehow get hold of it anyway? And if Johnny can get hold of 18 rated games, then I'm sure he can get hold of porn and very violent gory films on dvd too, even if he can't sneak into the cinema.

The BBFC simply can not use that as an argument.

bioreit: you should be aware that playgen is right, that's the parents responsability, not the government or any other commercial institution. I've also seen with my own eyes ppl buying GTA for a 6 year old kid, while the clerck insited that the game was not suitable for that age. Meanwhile the parent just said... he knows the difference between virtual and real world. What's your solution to that: take the kid from his father and put him at your door step ?

The moment banning and heavy censorship starts, where will it stop? You know - it could just as easily be an eagerly awaited game like Bioshock next.

tbh Hostel wasnt that violent.. I think Saw 3 was worse... use that instead Hostel was piss poor

"You've seen enough of Manhunt 2 to make a decision on this then, I presume?"

No, he probably hasn't, and neither have I, for the BBFC have decreed that our brains would melt if we did. That's what all this is about, some 'special' adults making decisions for us 'normal' adults. I would love to come to a fair conclusion about the degree of violence in the game, but I won't get the chance.

"under your logic we should ban all 18rated DVD's since 6 year old johhnny can just as easily get his hands on them"

But parents are far more likely to let kids buy an 18 rated game than a 18 rated film, this is fact. And because of that BBFC have to respond accordingly.

People who think nothing should be censored, banned, or even checked are narrow minded, stupid, or just not thinking about it properly.

If you want teh game youll still be able to get it, so stop moaning about your precious rights, because really they arent affected.

who the hell is little johnny, poor little bastard always gets dragged into arguments.

bioreit - Maybe more closely controlled at the cinemas but how do you know how many under 18's are watching these movies in other ways?

I was watching 18 movies when I was 12. My parents didnt know I was but there were ways and means of getting the films so id be pretty sure there are more ways and means for kids to watch these films if they want in todays technology led society.

Banning is not the answer. Just look at the publicity the game has got today. Educating adults who make these purchases is key to all of this as well as enforcing retailers responsibilities.

"But parents are far more likely to let kids buy an 18 rated game than a 18 rated film, this is fact. And because of that BBFC have to respond accordingly."



Then why not ban all +18 games ?


Then again, "ban" today has little, little effect, even for 12 year old kids. They'll get the game if they want to...

"Bullshit, if it wasnt all over the dailymail this would have passed and we all know it. "

If it's bullshit, why are bans like this so rare? Their decision to approve Dead Rising was spot on as they even acknowledged it to be quite a humorous game.


"and then we're just a facist state"

Try reading about life in some real fascist states before making statements like that. You cheapen the meaning of the phrase by bandying it about so loosely.

It's perfectly legal to possess Manhunt 2 in the UK, and if you really want it you can mail order it from elsewhere in Europe for about the same price that it costs in Britain. The only thing they've refused it is a certificate to be sold in UK shops.


"Then why not ban all +18 games ?"

I think what the BBFC were worried about was the tone of this game, that the only way the player could make progress was by committing terrible and realistic acts of sadistic violence. I don't know, I haven't played the game, but that seems to be what the BBFC say was the crucial difference between something like this and something like Dead Rising.

It'd be nice to know the place of "Manhunt" word in the top of P2P's network search engine..., as of today.

"Is Canis Canem Edit violent? I must have got the toned down version or something!"

Again, it's context, not the violence itself. Violence against children is controversial, violence against aliens or soldiers or obviously-fake sprites is much more acceptable.

"there is no argument you can give to justify banning a violent videogame,"

Really? Because I've just read some good ones in this thread. People ARE more likely to let their children play adult games than watch adult films.

>"The BBFC has recently supported the release of a number of violent videogames despite the titles attracting controversy, including Rockstar's Canis Canem Edit and Capcom's Dead Rising."

I hope people actually READ this before proclaiming to us how evil and controlling the BBFC are.

"I think what the BBFC were worried about was the tone of this game, that the only way the player could make progress was by committing terrible and realistic acts of sadistic violence. I don't know, I haven't played the game, but that seems to be what the BBFC say was the crucial difference between something like this and something like Dead Rising."

I was playing DR last night and I can safely say the only way I could make it into the elevator was by commiting terrible and what I would assume would be pretty realistic acts of violence. My guess the difference here is that the objects of my agression were zombies and I am assuming they are not in Manhunt.

"again a stupid argument, we have to be punsished cos of stupid parents, lets ban chocolate and sugar cos parents are to stupid to stop feeding their kids and now we have lots of fat kids....again there is no argument you can give to justify banning a violent videogame, and that's all it is a violent video game, a crap one at that but the BBFC should just admit keith vaz and co were behind their decision in which case the BBFC should be investigated. "

It's ONE game thats been banned, thats it!
One game that now much harder for little kids to get hold of by asking their parents to buy it for them in a highstreet shop. But it will still be easily avaliable to buy for adults from elsewhere.

Do you really want nothing to be banned?
Would you really be happy with paedophile material being legal for example?
Some things need to be censored because viewing them at a young impressionable age would distort that persons view of the world.
And if the game stays banned thats rockstars fault for not changing it, so if all it is 12 hours of constantly stabbing innocent people, then sorry thats not good enough either from a moral point of view, or as an enjoyable game.

GordonBennett: so the solution is "no I wont sell you this 'cos you might let your son play it, meanwhile, later on I'll be at your diner table to see if you feed them the vegetables!"

http://www.amazon.fr ?

Stupid really.

@GordonBennett
"Really? Because I've just read some good ones in this thread. People ARE more likely to let their children play adult games than watch adult films."

Letting your child play an 18 game is in the eyes of the law akin to letting them watch pornography.

Again I can't decide whether I'm for/against, but I don't think "children could play this" is any excuse to ban any film/book/game.

"Would you really be happy with pedophile material being legal for example?"

WOW! really lame comparision! Pedophily is a crime, developing a game isn't, is it? hummm...

I have to admit I trust a parents choice of what thier child can play more then a store clecks / or BBFC.

Mabye adult parents can chose for themselves....

OK a few points for the ignorant out there.

1. The BBFC are probably the best classification board in the world.
2. They are an independent body from both government and the industry.
3. Games are exempt UNLESS they have "gross acts of violence towards humans or animals", "horrific behaviour or incidents", "human sexual activity" and/or "criminal behaviour".
4. If you sell a BBFC rated game to someone below the age limit you are breaking the law and could receive a large fine and/or a prison sentance.
5. In a recent interveiw in Edge magazine the BBFC discussed recent research that encouraged them to be MORE LENIENT with games than movies (because you are more likely to put down the controller than stop a video. You also have control over the level of violence your character creates)
6. The BBFC is not in the habit of banning games (indeed the BBFC did not believe the Hot Coffee mod in GTA would change the rating) in fact i think i read that controversoul game Rule of Rose that was banned in other coutries was rated 15 by the BBFC.
7. It is illegal in the UK to publish graphical images of minors, incite murder, knowingly write or speak lies about a person or organisation (libale and slander) etc. This is all a form of censorship.
8. Theme is more important than content according to their guidlines.
9. (An exerpt from their guidlines regarding films that will not pass clasification)

"The Board will attempt to deal with films, videos or DVDs which are unacceptable at any category through intervention such as making cuts or requiring the addition of warning captions. If this is not possible or not acceptable to the distributor, works may be refused classification altogether. ‘Taboo’ themes are acceptable, but not if their treatment is likely to encourage harm to viewers or, through their behaviour, to society. The following are of particular concern graphic rape or torture
sadistic violence or terrorisation illegal and glamorised drug use material likely to incite racial hatred or violence portrayals of children in a sexualised or abusive context sex accompanied by non-consensual pain, injury or humiliation material likely to be found obscene by the courts."

Manhunt 2 (which no one here has played but the BBFC has) must be very dodgy for the BBFC to take the extraordinary (in fact unique) step of actually refusing classification.

Not posted in months, but I just wanted to chip in and confirm, for the sake of promoted2001, lavalant and others, that Manhunt 2 DOES allow you to, uh, "cut someone's bollox off".

From IGN's most recent preview: http://wii.ign.com/articles/792/792012p1...
"Consider for one moment that in Manhunt 2 you can, Wii remote and nunchuk in hands, use a pair of pliers to clamp onto an enemy's testicles and literally tear them from his body in a bloody display; and if that weren't enough, you'll take one of the poor victim's vertebrae along with his manhood. Or, if you'd prefer, you can use a saw blade and cut upward into a foe's groin and buttocks, motioning forward and backward with the Wii remote as you go."

For my money, that kind of content is easily as extreme as anything the very worst the mainstream movie biz has to offer; probably moreso, given the interactive, hands-on nature of it.

As for the rest of this situation, I remain on the fence; on the one hand, the game sounds to me like artistically bankrupt, prurient tosh that glorifies violence in a sleazy, cynical and unhealthy way, but on the other hand banning things and thereby taking away people's right to make moral and qualitative judgement calls for themselves doesn't seem like the way to go either...

@RexRunti
"7. It is illegal in the UK to publish graphical images of minors, incite murder, knowingly write or speak lies about a person or organisation (libale and slander) etc. This is all a form of censorship."

Just a side note, if this is the case, does anyone know how Innocence slipped by BBFC? There was full frontal nudity of a minor, which to be honest I think had the whole cinema audience going "thats not quite right"...

"1. The BBFC are probably the best classification board in the world."
Who said? The non-ignorant, I presume.

"Manhunt 2 (which no one here has played but the BBFC has) must be very dodgy"
Yes, it must be..., I'm glad you're protected now.

Actually, hostel is a poor comparison, as it shows that violent acts arent 'nice'. Wheras manhunt has no obvious moral compass, suggesting that sadism can save your character....
Edit: But I do agree, most of the problem is with the rules in retail and education of parents, there should always be an age-rated category that prevents minors playing such games, but still makes it available to the general public. On the whole though, the BBFC are very reasonable compared to other censors, and I support their decision on this - They must have good cause.

""Would you really be happy with pedophile material being legal for example?"

WOW! really lame comparision! Pedophily is a crime, developing a game isn't, is it? hummm..."

The point is when people say no games should be banned, then you open the gates for anything to be in games - would you want a game where you play as a paedophile? no of course you wouldnt.

There HAS to be a line drawn somewhere, and a game with constant murder with no other gameplay elements is just that.

Just because its a game doesn't mean it should be exempt from being censored or banned if the developer refuses to change it.

Incidently do they "actually" play the games. I thought they were given a summary?

How many people are involved in the final decision and are they representative of the general public?

Just interested.

Wii freeloader is coming this year, Datel confirmed it in a Email to me, just get that and import the fucking game and stop whining like bitches, they've only ever banned one other game, you're basically saying they're not allowed to do there job without you man babies crying about everything they do.

fuck off and grow up.

@bioreit

I actually made basically the same point as you in a earlier thread, and agree the problem is the lack of parents and retailers stopping kids buying 18 games and that needs to change.

However I think it's very wrong if the BBFC is banning what could have been an 18 game becuse kids might play it, because that surly goes for all 18 games. I also don't personally buy their comment that it isn't political.

I'm not saying I have a solution (although maybe they could release it with large warnings on the cover), but I worry setting a precident for censorship in the games industry again could lead to a downward spiral.

I also never claimed to be an expert on this game, or mentioned Hostel 2.

So don't tell me to "Shut up" and " get a clue" you prick!

Also: I've seen the "paedophile game" question crop up a few times in this debate, but the people who it's directed at always seem to misinterpret or avoid it, so I'd be interested to hear a straight answer: hand on heart, how would you feel about a paedophile simulation game? A game in which you could stalk, groom, abduct and abuse children? Developing and playing such a title would harm no-one, and technically be totally legal too...

@MrBiggles I think you misunderstand a number of peoples concerns for wanting to play manhunt 2 when its more the precdent that could be set by this decision.

I cant believe the amount of crap people are spouting in this thread.

Hostel 2 is a film where you are meant to feel uncomfortable and uneasy and wince at the pain, its shit, but obviously enough people pay to see this kind of shit.

MH2 from what we understand, is a game where you are rewarded and only allowed to progress by killing people in gruesome ways.

2 completely different concepts. both are shit, and both should be banned IMHO, but the game ban suits me fine. GTA should also be banned.

yes MrBibbles, I'll do that, in fact this is not even my problem, I don't live in UK I just buy games there because they're cheaper...

I't just that Censorship makes me shiver and shake, but that's for other reasons....

I really have a big problem with the government, or any organisation, being able to tell us what we can and can't do, play or watch. Surely most people over the age of 18 are able to make their own minds up with what they can handle or not- perhaps better guidance on what the game contains might be useful- but to outright ban a game is a joke. And to be honest, whatever the game shows, its unlikely to be much worse than some of the stuff you see on tv- for example the emaciated, rotting corpses which are shown on crime programs, or even the news.
People should be able to make their own decisions.

"2 completely different concepts. both are shit, and both should be banned IMHO, but the game ban suits me fine. GTA should also be banned."

Banned from where, your island, or the world ?, You can't stop ppl from doing what they want nowdays..., ok, ok maybe you can if you're a member of the Chinese Communist Party...

edit: In Prey you kill little virtual kids, I bought the game in Amazon UK.

Here is one of the reasons this game was banned

A pen can be jabbed in a guard's eye to take them down, spilling blood on the camera in the process...After stalking his victim Danny grabs them from behind and rams the pen into the face of the guard, before kicking them to the ground and repeatedly shoving the weapon in his face until it's a bloody pulp. It's a scene that will make even the most ardent gore lover wince

now please shut up, the game was banned for a bloody good reason.

@Ed6445

"I really have a big problem with the government, or any organisation, being able to tell us what we can and can't do"

What about the cops (and organisation) telling me I can't murder your family. Would you have a problem with that? I don't mean to cause offense, I'm just harshly exploiting a glaring hole in your comment.

As I said in a previous thread, if you want total freedom, go live in on desert island. If you choose to live in society, you choose to be governed by rules. The choice is yours, so you can't really complain about it.

"People should be able to make their own decisions"

Yes they absolutely should, but history has shown they bloody well can't, so we entrust wiser people to make descisions for them. We always winge about a nanny state, but we have consistently shown that even the slightest effort on our part is too much like hard work.

The general populace are reactive and uninformed. I for one don't want them making descisions that affect my life. Much rather a body that knows what it is doing and at least gives a shit. Apathy is one of the key flaws in any democracy.