BBC: Milo & Kate is a tech demo after all

By Tom Bramwell Published 14 July, 2010

Molyneux explains story, cloud-based AI.

Microsoft currently has no plans to release Milo & Kate after all, Peter Molyneux has reportedly told the TED Global conference in Oxford.

A fortnight ago Microsoft mouthpiece Aaron Greenberg said "right now it's not a game" before changing his mind, after which Lionhead boss Molyneux waded in and said Greenberg's original comment was based on out-of-date information.

According to the BBC report on Molyneux's speech at the TED Global conference in Oxford - where technology gurus are given 18 minutes to present their ideas - the veteran games designer said the Milo technology is in development and Microsoft has no plans to release it.

However, he also hinted that the game was designed for widespread use and could end up being a commercial product one day.

We've contacted Molyneux's spokesperson for comment.

Molyneux also walked attendees through an updated demo of the technology, which was first shown at E3 2009 during the unveiling of Kinect - then known as Project Natal.

More on Milo & Kate

One particularly interesting detail was that Milo's mind "is based in the cloud", meaning that his artificial intelligence improves as people around the world play with him and that development is fed back to the whole over the internet. "As millions of people use it, Milo will get smarter," Molyneux said. Careful, Peter.

Describing Milo as "a new revolution in storytelling", Molyneux said that "films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me". "It's a sea of blandness," he said.

The audience was told that Milo is a kid who has just moved from London to New England and has lots of time to himself. In the demo, Molyneux's assistant helped Milo explore a garden, skim stones and share secrets.

Molyneux said "no two people's Milos can be the same" because of the degree to which the player's actions sculpt his personality. "Some of the things you are doing will change the course of his life," he said, noting that after 45 minutes Milo recognises you.

The software allows Lionhead "complete control" over facial animation - right down to blushing and nostril width - to help convey stress and emotion. Apparently it's partly thanks to technology found "hidden in the dusty vaults of Microsoft". Top men.

"Most of it is just a trick - but it is a trick that actually works," Molyneux said. "I can promise you that if you are sitting in front of this screen, that is a truly wonderful moment."

That was more or less it, but he did add that the section being shown was early in the game, and that later on things got a bit more exotic. "There are lots of adventures - some of which are quite dark," Molyneux, whose other games include Fable III, explained.

For more on Milo & Kate, check out the original presentation from E3 2009 below, and read Ellie Gibson's account of an evening interacting with Milo.

The E3 2009 Milo demo.

Picture of Tom.

About Tom Bramwell

Tom is Operations director of Eurogamer Network and Editor-at-Large of Eurogamer.net. He joined the company in February 2000. Follow him on Twitter.

Read more articles from Tom by visiting the Tom Bramwell archive page.

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Comments (68) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • LiveForever #1 2 years ago

    If anyone can make gaming boring its Molyneux.

  • technotica #2 2 years ago

    If anyone can promise you the world and give you a marble its Molyneux :p

  • towser #3 2 years ago

    Like him or loathe him, the industry needs mouth pieces like him (and Cliff Blezinski) out there. Who else would champion games and speak up for us?

  • Negotiator #4 2 years ago

    So is this coming out? first he says it's a tech demo, then he says it might be released in the future, WTF Pete.

  • Fletche #5 2 years ago

    "films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me" he sounds like barrel of laughs, I wonder if there will be something where you can watch a film with Milo, or read a book with Milo. I can see something in the future there, Read With Milo, a new interactive learning experience for ages 3-8

  • TipTop #6 2 years ago

    We need Molyneux 's not less. If our medium is ever to develop, we need to allow Molyneux and his like to push a few boundaries, else we end up with yet more bloody sequels based around antiquated game mechanisms that have been around since the NES days (or earlier).
    Edited by TipTop at 14/07/10 @ 08:53

  • miiiguel #7 2 years ago

    If anyone can make gaming boring its Molyneux.

    You actually meant: "I just want to shoot people in the face, n00b!", right ?

  • RedPanda #8 2 years ago

    Post deleted at 14:31:59 28-01-2012

  • spiritsnake #9 2 years ago

    this sounds like a good idea
    Edited by spiritsnake at 14/07/10 @ 10:45

  • metalangel #10 2 years ago

    I am so fucking sick of hearing about this lying cunt and Milo the snake oil child.

    And this article (quite prominent on the BBC right now) is only going to mislead even more people into believing this smoke and mirrors show is real.

  • playgen #11 2 years ago

    They keep bringing this up, and being rather undecisive over it being a proper game that will be released or simply a demo like all the other 'games' they showed at E3 09. I think its because Milo is pretty much the only thing (real or not) that makes Kinect look impressive, since everything else now shown for it is very familair from the Wii.
    Edited by playgen at 14/07/10 @ 09:11

  • The-Bodybuilder #12 2 years ago

    "millions of people use it, Milo will get smarter," Molyneux said. Careful, Peter."

    Milo is Skynet.

    "films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me".

    You see, it's hyperbolic statements like that that makes him irritating. Books don't involve the reader? For one, it's kind of the bloody point. And second, if books were "rubbish", it wouldn't have lasted the thousand of years it has.

    Molyneux said "no two people's Milos can be the same"

    Hmm, like Fable 1?

  • MORZTAN #13 2 years ago

    What they said wasn't smoke and mirrors now vanishes into thin air....

  • The-Bodybuilder #14 2 years ago

    else we end up with yet more bloody sequels based around antiquated game mechanisms that have been around since the NES days (or earlier).

    Like the fable series?
    I'm tired of this bollocks that he pushed boundaries. When was the last time he did that? The only boundaries he pushes are his imagination, before delivering a game that really isn't much different from the rest.

  • moggsy #15 2 years ago

    'films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me". "It's a sea of blandness,"'

    What a cock.

  • BAM! #16 2 years ago

    Vapourware.

  • ZuluHero #17 2 years ago

    On April 21 2011, at 02:14 am Eastern Time Milo becomes self-aware and launches nuclear missiles at Russia to incite a counterattack against the humans who, in a panic, tried to disconnect it...

  • Markitron #18 2 years ago

    Peter Molyneux has again exaggerated his own games tech. Shocker. Im no PM hater but every big game of his promises some bold new aspect and he never delivers, but generally the games are high enough quality. Fable 1 and black & white are the biggest examples I can think of
    Edited by Markitron at 14/07/10 @ 09:23

  • gerald #19 2 years ago

    "films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me". "It's a sea of blandness," he said.

    The opposite ist true: storytelling in "interactive media" tends to be bland, because the player is involved.
    Its very hard to tell a good interactive story and particularly Molyneux has yet to proof he is up to it.

  • BabyJesus #20 2 years ago

    Really struggling to give a shit here.

  • Retro_ #21 2 years ago

    At least we all know that Milo was in fact being controlled from behind a curtain by the Wizard of Oz.

  • Tzetrik #22 2 years ago

    oh GOD im sick of hearing about Molyneux. Molynonnews. Please stop it. Stop.

  • ignatiusjreilly #23 2 years ago

    Even "tech demo" is pushing it. A tech demo is supposed to actually utilise the technology to show what it can do. The most you could call this is a proof of concept.

  • lockload #24 2 years ago

    They are not going to announce anything until they are ready.

    See it as the research part for kinect, any tech will most likely be rolled into the api for devs to use.

    I like how this is trying something different, its good to be ambitious instead of just researching how to model holding a sword better. Im not saying milo looks like an amazing game but the ambitions are interesting and a bioware story led rpg could be interesting if it included tech like this alongside the normal controller controls for combat

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #25 2 years ago

    What the fuck are MS playing at? First it was a game, then it wasn't, then it was a game again. Now it's not a game but 'might' be one day!

    If it's not going to be released then why the fuck say that millions of people using it will make Milo cleverer?? (Great idea BTW.) Quite hard to test unless its released or on a public beta. And why say that later on things change a lot in the game and he has adventures?? Seems like a lot of effort to just test some technical theories out.

    Finally, if they really arent planning to release this then maybe it would be a better idea to get what few first party studios they have left to actually make some fucking top class AAA titles for the people that bought your fucking console. Rather than have one studio piss about with Kinect (which would be fine if you hadn't fucked it with a £130 price tag), and one piss around with this (apart from Fable 3 ofc).

  • Mkwone #26 2 years ago

    I'd love to have seen the marketing campaign for this.

    Milo & Kate*

    *Kate not included

  • LOLLERS #27 2 years ago

    How long before hanging out with a kid by a pond becomes bland?

    "... he did add that the section being shown was early in the game, and that later on things got a bit more exotic. "There are lots of adventures - some of which are quite dark,"

    I think you mean

    "The section being shown is all we've got, but when (if) we make the whole game it'll be brilliant, honest."
    Edited by LOLLERS at 14/07/10 @ 09:32

  • metalangel #28 2 years ago

    @Mkwone: luckily I've already got one at home so I won't have to pay extra for the full experience.

  • schnide #29 2 years ago

    Before Molyneux or Greenberg next open their mouths, they should attempt to locate and integrate the following:

    Left hand
    Right hand
    Arse
    Elbow

  • beastmaster #30 2 years ago

    Milo & Kate is a pre-rendered sequence after all

  • dr_shambles #31 2 years ago

    Yeah bookz iz rubish.

  • Stomp224 #32 2 years ago

    It IS a game. Why the hell go to all that trouble for a tech demo? The initial Milo demo show Kinects capabilities. Why spend another year perfecting tech that isn't going to be used for another 2-3 years?

  • Kerome #33 2 years ago

    Let's see who can back-pedal faster - Molyneux or... Sorry, can't think of another industry luminary who can compete ;)

    Seriously anyone could see that 1) Milo was fantastically ambitious as a project, 2) the setting sucked badly, and 3) it would be hugely difficult to get decent gameplay out of it which would be considered fun by the majority of the public. It's not a game in any normal sense, it's a boy simulator, it has a very small natural audience outside frustrated professional women in their 40's who forgot to have kids.

  • kangarootoo #34 2 years ago

    @towser

    If you think over using the word "badass" is a good way to champoin games in the wider world, we shall have to agree to disagree.

  • darkmorgado #35 2 years ago

    This is a bit confusing - first of all Pete says that there are no plans to release this at the moment, then he says they are actively developing the game and it seems quite far along, at least past the planning stage. Can we get some clarification on this please EG?

    On another note though, what he is suggesting sounds awesome and, to be fair, like a natural evolution of the ideas seen in Black & White - your creature in that learned from your actions and depending on how you taught him, learned to equate certain actions with right or wrong and then apply that thinking independently of your directions. For example, you could teach it that poo was bad and it would throw it at the enemy, or go to the toilet in fields and fertilise your crops. It really was a pretty advanced bit of tech. Wouldn't surprise me if Milo started off as a concept for B&W3 or if he is thinking about implementing this tech in a potential sequel to B&W.

    Yes, Peter talks bollocks sometimes but very occasionally he does follow through with his promises and when he does that, the resulting games tend to be revolutionary.

  • RexRunti #36 2 years ago

    metalangel: I am so fucking sick of hearing about this lying cunt and Milo the snake oil child.

    And this article (quite prominent on the BBC right now) is only going to mislead even more people into believing this smoke and mirrors show is real.

    Considering Peter Molyneux in every interview and article admits this is done via smoke and mirrors but it shouldn't detract from the experience and there have actually been a few hands on as well (there is even one on this very site) I fail to see how he is a lying cunt.

    BBC: "Most of it is just a trick - but it is a trick that actually works"

    Eurogamer: "Now, he didn't really understand every word you said, but from the tone of your voice he guessed you were telling a joke."

    Eurogamer> The number of words he understands is built up over time. For Claire [the lady who demoed a conversation with Milo during Microsoft's conference], it's something like 500 words.

    But we haven't cracked the real problem, which is him understanding the meaning of it all. He'll give you the illusion he does that. The interesting thing is you can only talk to him when the Talk icon appears at the bottom of the screen. That's when he's listening to you; the rest of the time, he's not. He's listening to you because there's a context in which you can talk to him.

    One of the journalists who came in before you had obviously read up on the Turing test. He asked Milo one of the questions in the test - 'Do you remember when we met yesterday?' Well, of course, we haven't cracked the Turing test. If we had, then applying it to a computer game would be the last of the solutions we'd use it for.

  • Lukus #37 2 years ago

    "That was more or less it, but he did add that the section being shown was early in the game, and that later on things got a bit more erotic..."

    Interesting.

  • metalangel #38 2 years ago

    So he says it's a trick... but never says the full extent of the trickery, talking all this tech about how Milo "learns" when in fact it's all carefully scripted and controlled by a group of programmers.

    To me, that means Milo could do just about anything provided they've programmed it in beforehand or have recorded a speech sample to respond appropriately. It's not really a revolution in AI so much as a really elaborate puppet as it can't really run without people controlling it from behind the scenes.

  • towser #39 2 years ago

    @Kangarootoo - :-) true, but we've all said stupid things in the past.

    All I'm saying is on balance, they help our cause.

  • Mkwone #40 2 years ago

    @metalangel

    I just hope you don't have compatability issues.

  • kangarootoo #41 2 years ago

    And dismissing a huge wide ranging aspect of media such as book as "rubbish" simply because they don't appeal to one single individual just boggles the mind. Ego? Much?

  • mingster #42 2 years ago

    I reckon they hire a 10 year old boy to be Milo behind the curtain to type in replies.
    A bit like the wizard in Wizard of Oz.

  • Distributor #43 2 years ago

    Please, someone, anyone, for the love of god shut PM up. Please. I beg you.

  • kangarootoo #44 2 years ago

    "but very occasionally he does follow through with his promises and when he does that, the resulting games tend to be revolutionary."

    I am genuinely struggling to think of one of those moments. Not saying PM doesn't make good games. I enjoyed Fable 1 + 2 a lot. But I can't recall his very good games ever living up to the ridiculous promises that preceeded them.


    @towser

    True enough, I've said loads of stupid things in my time :)

    However, I really think someone like Cliffy B is more a figure head that works well within the industry for his employer. I genuinely don't see him as someone who "sells" gaming to those not already involved. If anything, he persists the view of gaming that the "rest of the world" currently hold.

    If anything, PM is more the sort of person that champions gaming outside of gaming, but only because his waffle is aspirational :)

  • dwalker109 #45 2 years ago

    I liked Populous, Syndicate et al but not much since. Molyneux is more of a concept than a driving force of innovation now, but I don't really mind that. As others have pointed out, his aspirational PR stuff serves a purpose outside of the core gamer market.

  • Moribundman #46 2 years ago

    Jesus. Paedo Molyneux...

    All I can say is "his artificial intelligence improves as people around the world play with him" just calls to mind the "virtual grooming" connotations raised by Charlie Brooker.

    It really is a spooky sounding concept - the high brow tech angle doesn't sit well with the theme of "playing with" a child. Top level pioneering AI should be targeted at an adult audience who would appreciate it, not a bunch of kids who would be just as happy with Viva Piniata.

    Apply the AI to something clever that grown ups can play without feeling like kiddy fiddlers Peter...

  • Moribundman #47 2 years ago

    Oh, also the "learning" bit just reminds me of Pob (or whatever he was called) on the BBC Micro; you typed in what you wanted him to do and if you said "run" he'd run, "jump" he'd jump etc.

    All we ever did as kids was type in "shit" and "fuck" and "wank" and it's say "Pob can't [whatever]". Endless amusement there. Halcyon days.

  • metalangel #48 2 years ago

    @Moribundman: Pod! The days indeed. My nan worked in a school and they had that, along with a huge written list of all the things he could do. "Burst" was undoubtedly the most popular. (remember Spider Maze?)

  • MonsieurToni #49 2 years ago

    I just fear that his idea of cloud gaming is actually not too functional. As with, say, statistical machine translation, the bigger the corpus the more severe the problems. You can up until certain point improve the performance of AI based on player action but on a set threshold it will actually start to derogate. It is because of the fact that for the AI it becomes impossible to choose which of the alternative action patterns is the best for there are no metrics for rationality.

    Also, cloud gaming AI would expect that choices were always beneficial or rational. If 10,000 people would abuse Milo it could be the most popular action pattern and he would respond accordingly. Hence, you either end up limiting the growth of the AI or you face the consequences of people acting without consequences. In either case, the limits of cloud AI are met way before "millions of players", most likely at around tens of players. The idea in itself is alluring, but it does not function too well with sandbox freedom Milo & Kate tech demo is illustrating.

  • chubster2010 #50 2 years ago

    "films, TV, even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me". "It's a sea of blandness,"

    Just...amazing. I'm speechless. Big Pete has really outdone himself with that one!

  • Shadzter #51 2 years ago

    It's so annoying to keep seeing press refer to this as 'Milo & Kate', Kate was just a woman demonstrating how the game works at E3 2009 and has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the game itself.

    Anyway, Microsoft are not going to release it after all? Will all involved please make their minds up already?
    Edited by Shadzter at 14/07/10 @ 12:47

  • ZuluHero #52 2 years ago

    @Shadzter

    The girl was called Claire:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/e3-proje...

  • chubster2010 #53 2 years ago

    @Shadzter
    Isn't Kate the name of Milo's dog?

    Well...that's what it says here:
    [link url=http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/07/14/kinects-milo-shows-interesting-features/
    ]http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/07/14/k...[/link]

    and here:

    [link url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_and_Kate
    ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo_and_Kate
    [/link]

    So...you can stop being annoyed now! ;)

  • Moribundman #54 2 years ago

    Kate's Milo's bitch.
    Milo's Peter's bitch.
    Peter's Greenberg's bitch.

    Presumably every word uttered by Milo would have to be pre-recorded meaning that however much scope there is for emergent and learning AI, it's still limited by pre-thought content...

    However impressive the AI, it'll all boil down to "if a+b+c are true then Milo says d", "if a+c are true but not b then Milo says e".

    The only way that this sort of tech would be genuinely impressive would be if it learned from the words you used and the topics you discussed and tailored itself to those. And in my case it would be very inappropriate for a synthetic child to discuss such things...

  • orangpelupa #55 2 years ago

    this Milo & Kate technology, when the cloud-based AI have many data collected, can be very usefull to sell XBox 360 on Japan, i think.

    Just Sell "Love Plus 360" with the AI just like in Milo and Kate, Japan will buy xbox 360 >_

  • Bluetooth #56 2 years ago

    Does anyone have the video link to the TED demo with Milo + Kate? I want to know the burning question: is Kate hotter than Claire?

  • BlinxHDD #57 2 years ago

    Bored of hearing about it already.

  • Beano #58 2 years ago

    I both like and hate Molyneux - a very sympatic man with many ideas, but he keeps blowinf hot air and empty promises that would give even the most coked-up Sony PR executive a bad taste in their mouth. Please stop, Peter!

  • darkmorgado #59 2 years ago

    It's so annoying to keep seeing press refer to this as 'Milo & Kate', Kate was just a woman demonstrating how the game works at E3 2009 and has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the game itself.

    Erm, no. The woman demoing the game was called Claire. Molyneux has said that Milo and Kate are the main characters in the game, but only Milo has been demonstrated so far.

  • spudsbuckley #60 2 years ago

    Pete cannot stop bullshitting.

  • sarcasmoidosis #61 2 years ago

    "If our medium is ever to develop, we need to allow Molyneux and his like to push a few boundaries, else we end up with yet more bloody sequels "

    You mean the guy making Fable 3? Sure, he'll save us from sequels. And give us new mechanics like "press A to win" (he said it, not me)

  • Ryze #62 2 years ago

    I don't see how millions of people will use Milo BECAUSE THEY'VE NOT COMMITTED TO RELEASING IT!

  • mdeeRocks #63 2 years ago

    Kate is not a woman who demoed the game at 09 E3. her name was Claire. Kate is definitely something else.

  • Shadzter #64 2 years ago

    Oh, I don't remember seeing that detail about another character. I take back what I said then, thanks for the info guys.

  • zedzee #65 2 years ago

    Good grief! This is turning into a Killzone2-2005-E3-footage fiasco!

  • zedzee #66 2 years ago

    "...even hallowed books, are just rubbish because they don't involve me"

    Yes, Peter, you're a little late to write anything interesting or bring anything useful to the world.

  • SEVQA #67 2 years ago

    So this all this boils down to the game not being ready anytime soon, maybe not this generation!

  • man.the.king #68 2 years ago

    @mdeeRocks

    "Kate is definitely something else"

    A myth? ;)