Banjo-Tooie Comments by Dan Whitehead

So, how does the Stop-N-Swap work then?

Still got this on the N64, so i'll prob finish it on that!

@RobotRocker:

Ooh, that's a good question. I got to the mysterious key and egg a few times in the first one. Never managed to get hold of this one though, so this is probably a good chance. I still like platform games, after all.

Also, on the N64 you could skip the cut scenes if you'd been through them once, although this only really worked when you were playing a second save file.

I probably would have marked it down for being a boring collect-a-thon, as I thought it was a shit form of "gameplay" back when it was released.

If we were talking Jet Force Gemini, here, or perhaps, Perfect Dark, I'd be oodles more interested; but, since its the mainstay Banjo-Tooie, which I've already played enough times (and, I do agree that the collectathon aspect becomes excessive, in this one - whereas in the first one I think it adds to the exploration and enjoyment) and given that I'm not as fond of this as that first game, I'm not inclined to bring forth that fearful, freshly-prepared vat of acid with which to sear your bones, Mr. Reviewer - because, in fact, I agree a lot with both the score and opinion expressed in the review.

It's good, but this outing doesn't deserve positioning on a pedestal.
@Toothball: The feature never made it into the original cartridges, so this XBLA re-releases will be the only way you can find out for yourself how Stop n swop would have worked. Even with all of the mystery eggs and ice key, nothing happened on the Nintendo versions.

"Rare a little too quick to give them exactly what they expected."

And yet they went left-field with Nuts & Bolts and nobody was happy. Apart from me, a great game.

Nick-JD- , didn't you say that you worked for Sony in the Demons Souls thread? A tinsy bit biased, no? :S

I never played this when it first came out (just the first one) so i've been looking forward to this. Oh and this review was better than Kristen's, Dan :)

Nick-JD- did you, Nintendo and Rare have a love triangle going on that went horribly wrong? It seems like you have been deeply hurt by something they did to you in the past. Were you spit-roasted by Mario and Banjo at some point?

I enjoyed Banjo Kazooie on XBLA a lot more than I thought I would. I loved the games on the N64 (never finished Banjo Tooie though) but still, sometimes it's really just nostalgia. Seeing how fantastic Banjo Kazooie plays still today I will definitely get this one as well.

I think Rare are good at what they do. And they do colourful fun games. I admit it's not everyones cup of tea, but in a market of same old same old FPS etc, its nice to have the choice of games like Viva Pinata and Nut's and Bolt's. They are nice ways to spend an hour or two when your bored (like me) of Shoot shoot death death.

I'm defo getting this, palyed B&K to death on the N64, and again on Live, but never got this.

As someone mentioned above Jet Force Gemini would be most awesome.

Don't feed the troll guys, the ignore button is there for a reason. For future reference the name Nick on these boards is a sort of code word for twat. The more you know....

@ZuluHero,

If he does work for them (and I'm not exactly one to believe "Internet Claims") it's clearly in an extremely lowly position, as they barely pay him a pittance. So I'd take his claims of "inside knowledge" of titles such as Demons Souls being released in the west later in the year with a shovel of salt.

Truly the ignore button doth lead me unto a sea of tranquility and fragrant maidens bearing fruits and confectionary..

...or at least hides the twats.


Anyway, much better review than for BK1 but I'd have liked more comment on the actual game, like locations, challenges, technical aspects rather than a thinly veiled apology for the BK1 reveiw. ;)

@rotmm

Oh I fully agree. I was just questioning his validity to make comments about Rare and Nintendo if he claims to be a Sony employee. Surely any claims of such invalidates anything he has to say about them.

and Ashen-Shugar - isn't the internet a lonely place then? :P

Rare did a much better job working with Nintendo. The DK games they made for them were awsome! I think their sales now just show how much they've gone down hill since. Unless the topic involves Banjo I never hear Rare's name anymore!

@Ashen-Shugar
Truly the ignore button doth lead me unto a sea of tranquility and fragrant maidens bearing fruits and confectionary..

/Looks down at packet of crisps he got while hitting ignore

Damn, I got screwed!

...or at least hides the twats.

There is that, a lot fewer people on the internet these days, I notice.

So then, given that Tooie is nowhere near as good as the first game, I can only assume that the first should have got 9 or 10 had Kristan not been having a bad day :D

It's a good game, but the first one is even better.

Take Rare's games reception nowadays, divide off the large factor of hate a lot of people have for their new owners, and the end result is they're still damn good.

If I could only play one dev's games, RARE would probably be the one .

I returned this game the day I bought it. In retrospect I didn't really give it a chance, but there was just something about it I didn't like. Banjo-Kazooie had me from the word go.

i played the first one and while i enjoyed the game for a handful of hours the game eventually became absolutely obscure in level design and tough as hell and i was really not very fond of that. I would be willing to buy this if it was a lot more lenient with its frustrations...

on the other hand to whoever said rare suck now at the top..WHAT? i have been playing nuts and bolts recently and its absolutely brilliant in every way possible along with viva pinata!

Kristan Reed's Banjo-Kazooie review was decidedly off IMO, either written by someone who never liked the original or someone deluded enough to think that it was meant to be a remake rather than a port. Whatever, his 5/10 score was a good 20% lower than all the other professional reviews according to Metacritic and GameRankings. I'm not suggesting he should like the game but it seems odd to give a retro review to someone who evidently never rated the original. I mean if he didn't like it back then, why would he like it now?

Thankfully, Dan Whitehead's review of Banjo-Tooie is more on the money, pointing out the flaws but still acknowledging there's a decent game under there. The 7/10 rating seems fair too from my all-too brief play of the game back in 2001.

Personally (and I know I'm probably in the minority here) I rate Banjo-Kazooie as a better game than Super Mario 64 because it had better characters, humour and didn't feel like a random selection of levels like Nintendo's game did. Sure, it's not perfect but I found it charming, entertaining and memorable. The colourful visuals and superb music were the icing on the cake. I can barely recall Super Mario 64 to be honest, not that it wasn't a good game, just that I never had the urge to play it more than once.

I sold my N64 before I got the chance to play Banjo-Tooie so my experiences of that game amount to a brief three hour play of it on my nephew's N64. I'm really looking forward to it as what I saw of it looked excellent and it seemed much larger than the original with more stuff to do. At a tenner it's a steal IMO.

This is a good one no doubth. My money and (more importantly) time will be spent on Virtual On and the new Maw level today. Sorry Banjo.

@seamonsterneil

I have to agree with your comments on the level design. Loved the original but B-T just seemed to go out of its way to confuse with frequent treks across multiple levels for the sake of a single jiggy and plenty of occasions where you're just not sure where to go next.

I agree with Darren. BK stomped all over Mario 64 for me.

Banjo Tooie had an awful framerate in the N64 compared to Banjo Kazooie. Have they fixed this for the Arcade version?

@Machetazo:

Oh, I know that Stop 'n' Swop didn't work on the N64. There was talk of them making it work between these versions from what I remember. Still wondering if that transpired or not.

"Surely any claims of such invalidates anything he has to say about them. "
Yeah, because as soon as you get a job for any company you obviously lose all right to have an opinion of your own. Don't be a moron.

Nothing against this game or this review, but ever since virtual console/Xbox Live etcetera, I find it strange reading so many reviews of games that I've already seen reviewed in the last twenty years.

I guess the need to review this game only nine years later shows that reviews become just as dated as games, if not more so.

For that reason they should probably always, and only, be reviewed, and read, by people who have never played the game before.

@Derblington

So a Sony employee saying that Nintendo and Rare (now a Microsoft first party remember) SUCKS is a perfectly vaild comment? Youre right, joining ANY company doesn't lose you the right to an opinion, but i think that any comment you make about a rival company certainly brings into question the validity of anything you express. Even if you only say it out of loyalty.

anyway... i take back what i said. I guess i am a moron.

@jonsaan

Treasure would be the one dev for me, if I were in that situation!

Crikey, if reviewers are't complaining about games lacking in content, they're complaining about them having too much!

It seems to me as if developers just can't win when it comes to appeasing the minds of overly fickle reviewers...

Love the first one back in the day, but Tooie wasn't my cup of tea, it was darker, less colourful, and had inferior level design, and the framerate was horrible...

@Ashen-Shugar

Nice name. Most interesting character Feist wrote about, should have had his own series.

I just got Banjo N&B and am loving that, the kids have a blast with it (should have heard the laughs the first time they drove into a cow - by accident of course!) Will probably give this a go as I'm a sucker for bright primary colours ;-)

I got to the end of game scene and then get a call from someone offering me a job. Never got to see it as I was busy on the phone. Interesting fact which is in fact in no way interesting at all.

I never liked tooie originally...

But yet i'm tempted to buy this for no other reason than it's been AGES since i last played a GOOD platformer.


GAAH!

Okay.. i'll buy it once i've bought and gotten bored with outrun

"I just got Banjo N&B and am loving that, the kids have a blast with it (should have heard the laughs the first time they drove into a cow - by accident of course!)"

Oh yes, that's one of the best things about N&B, how you can create whatever you like and just TRY it out. It feels refreshingly liberating not to have the game tell you that you're "doing it wrong", and demand you comply, but you actually see and learn from experience that that design could probably take another looking over! :D
I remember, I just couldn't hold back the laughter when I was trying to perfect a rapid flying car, with detaching rotors, and thought I'd nailed it, set off to the test range all enthusiastic, only to find the back of the vehicle (the part with the rotors) instantly seperated from the front, and driver and all shot straight over the high test platform and disappeared from view below - well, at least I got the speed bit, right! :)
They actively encourage you to experiment and tinker about. That's a big part of what I find great about it.

Got it, seeing as I never had it on N64. Liking it so far, woop!

That's the problem with N&B though, most people are too stupid or lazy to bother trying stuff out.

I never played this on the N64 so I will at least check out the trial. Will most likely pony up the cash...

Love the first one back in the day, but Tooie wasn't my cup of tea, it was darker, less colourful, and had inferior level design, and the framerate was horrible...

That pretty much sums up why I didn't finish it on the N64. It was a good game but BK was better. The biggest disappointment was the frame rate however, it was indeed horrible, especially considering it was a game by RARE.

@BBIAJ - I agree with you that it's strange that reviewers complain about a game having too much stuff to do. The collecting element of a platform game is one of things that makes them so fun to play IMO and gives them that extra bit of longevity as you scout the levels from every collectible you can find to attain that 100% score. Certainly I was compelled to complete Banjo-Kazooie twice on the N64, both times with a 100% score. Similarly I enjoyed Donkey Kong 64 for having lots of stuff to do and collect.

Maybe I'm weird but I always thought platform games were about jumping and collecting lots of stuff, they're the things that define the genre?

Best thing you've written yet, Dan. That intro on the issues of retro games probably deserves its own article. My personal issue about it is that far too many sites do top 100 lists where you're lucky to see any pre-2001 games bar Tetris. Gaming has a huge, fascinating and rich heritage, and I don't respect the games journo who doesn't know this heritage.

I think the the thing that stands out as being the most annoying feature of both the Banjo games is not knowing what to do. The world is big and it is very easy to get lost. The sewer transport system does help but that only helps to a degree when you know where you want to go, it doesn't show up new places. A basic map would have been useful and this would have been easy to implement into the xbla version.

Its for this reason I got bored of playing Banjo Kazooie when it was released a few months ago. I weas fed up running around lost and having no idea where jiggy opportunities were. A basic map does not need to handhold and tell you exactly how to find jiggies, it only needs to show that it is in a given area.

The Banjo games have always been a little bit lackluster in hinting where or what to do next, I agree, but intuition is what makes the games more rewarding. Mario 64 gave you a hint and Mario Sunshine/Galaxy basically told you where to go via camera pans.

Banjo games rely on the player seeing an oppurtunity, finding the solution and then watching the conclusion.

Example.

1) Walk into level, notice ledges which you cannot grab
2) Find JamJars, learn move
3) Perform move, be rewarded with a Jiggy/Collectible.

A map wouldn't help I think, you need to rely on your own self to see and remember where oppurtunities are.

I remember really looking forward to this, as Banjo-Kazooie was one of my favourite games on the N64. My abiding memory of Tooie is that it was a complete mess, far too big and complicated for relatively little reward (there was at least one puzzle that required you to visit three different worlds just to get one jiggy) and the later worlds - Cloud Cuckooland - were particularly awful. Kazooie was smaller, but far more streamlined and enjoyable. It was the ultimate example of bigger definitely not meaning better. 5/10 for the original is a criminal score, almost as bad as 4/10 for Deadly Creatures (but then Eurogamer, like 1up.com, are fairly vocal in their disdain for the Wii so it wasn't altogether unexpected despite being rather mean-spirited).

The review doesn't go into the reinstated features such as Stop N' Swap, and it doesn't mention that this is the one that most people haven't played. A lost gem. Which surely makes it a more interesting purchase?

I have to ask after the darkfall inaccurate review, that was largly written on bias, and with disputes about the reviewer actually playing the game for any length of time can I trust this review as truth? or is this review actually written by someone with an interest in the product or an opposing one?

I bought the N64 version of Banjo Tooie only 2 days ago and received yesterday. As it is, possibly with some exaggeration, regarded as a 'rare' (and not just a 'Rare') game, it cost me several times more than Banjo Kazooie did. However I have played most Rare platformers and wanted to play this to compare it to Banjo Kazooie, even though I knew that Banjo Kazooie would remain the better game. Sure enough, in the short time so far that I have played it, I am definitely in agreement with xandaca.

The first of Rare's 3D platformers, Banjo Kazooie is more akin to their last, Conker's Bad Fur Day, in a way than it seems to be to Banjo Tooie. Not in terms of its characters, setting and tone, obviously, but in terms of keeping the game relatively tight. Donkey Kong 64 and Banjo Tooie seem podgier around the middle and more gimmicky with more different kinds of item to collect.

Banjo Tooie seems more like it wants to be an adventure game that happens to have some platforming to it. If Banjo Kazooie wanted to be like Mario 64 (and BK was better than Mario 64 in my opinion) then Banjo Tooie seems to want to be an irreverent Ocarina of Time with perhaps a touch of in-joke type Paper Mario humour.

Banjo Tooie has longer cut scenes to seem to want to try to make you emote with the characters and situations but then is also completely irreverent towards to those chararcters. I would say that a lot of the first game's charm was the level design but I'm not convinced that Banjo Tooie believes in that so much.

The first Banjo Kazooie game was like playing in all your favourite bedtime stories which were linked by an ingenious hub world that made it clear what you needed to get past certain doors- or you could explore a few other avenues if you wanted without ever getting too off the beaten track. Banjo Tooie's hub world doesn't initially seem quite so bewitching. It has closed doorways, guarded or unguarded with no immediately clear solution except for testing if the other characters you can control (Banjo and Kazooie's abililities thus seeming to be regarded as relatively mundane by the games designers, even though a bird in a bear's backpack is an adorable idea) fulfil the unspoken criteria needed to pass. That makes it less platform game in spirit, more adventure game. I'm still not sure if there are going to be any self contained worlds like the first game. Banjo Tooie seems a bit less lovable than the first game, although I have already noticed some nice graphical effects such as shadows and a reflective floor.

I reckon that the first Banjo Kazooie is the best N64 game Rare ever made and if Banjo Tooie is 7/10 (and I hope it turns out to be more as I play it) then Banjo Kazooie is still 9 (or, arguably, 10) out of 10.

Ah right, so here's where the N-boyz have been hiding. Eternally caressing past glory. Seriously though, it wasn't that good. (far from it).