360 failure rate put at 16 per cent Comments by Ellie Gibson

I find it even more amazing gamers are buying the damn thing twice knowing full well there no guarantees that the new one will be any better. I mean, what have they fixed in the new motherboards? I've read storys suggesting the new motherboards are no better. It's crazy! Gamers are paying around £600 for the prevail of playing on a console they know is a liability. It's ridiculous! Madness!

Don't pull your hair out.
I wnat you to know that we can still be friends.
Let everybody know!

Kool thing.

It's like renting a console which you know ultimately you'll have to return.

The RROD percentage among eurogamers is probably higer than for the general populace, as people who read and post here are most likely gamers who use their consoles more than average joes. Increased use -> increaced chance of overheating -> RROD.

The actual number may indeed be higher than 16 % or so, as the boxes seem just as likely to break down after a good while (like a few months or even a year), as after a week. Perhaps the RROD is really 100 % for the original, non-falcon X-boxes, maybe they'll all die of overheating if used intensely (graphics heavy gaming) for too long (more than a few hours, I guess) in a less than ideal environment (not very well ventilated and cooled). Who knows. Maybe a good portion of the boxes that have not failes are simply not being used much, or maybe a cood chuunk of them have third-party cooling systems installed, what do I know.

What is interesting, is that if we take the 16 % failure rate at face value, and concider that Microsoft have shipped about 17 360ies - probably well past one 18 million now, I'd bet - than about three million of them (!) could have died already, and more of them likely to do so. That, of course, has an effect on the total installed base, which is then logically about 10 to 20 percent lower than the "shipped units figure" that Microsoft has announced.

On the other hand, only the non-falcon xboxes get RROD, so the calculation is far from exact. It would therefor be interesting to know how many non-falcons Xbox have shipped (sold), and what the failure rate for the non-falcons are. That is most likely even higher than 16 percent, it seems.

Myself, I am waiting for the Jasper xbox, which should arrive in august. Even though Falcons are more reliable, they're still to noisy.

It's a mad world.

Before my 360 checked out on Tuesday, I wondered whether the whole red lights issue was an elaborate urban myth. And even if it was true, I'd never had a console fail on me - even the notoriously feeble PS2 has endured hundreds of hours of use - so I thought I was bulletproof.

In short: 16 per cent LOL

My 360 RROD'ed on me mid Jan after just over 2 years of service.

Got it back 2 weeks ago with a new DVD drive and motherboard installed.

It worked for around 40 mins then failed again with another RROD and is now back at the repair center.

As a result I have little faith in their repair process and are concerned that they simply swapping bad parts out with bad in the hope that it will postpone another inevitable failure.

I was actually expecting it to be a lot higher...

still, it's well worth it for the games.

Are all of the Elites the new 'Falcon' model now, or is there still a chance of getting a 'soon-to-brick' one?

monkie_king wrote: "still, it's well worth it for the games."

See what I mean!

miiiguel, it is a mad world.

Headbog: So you are saying that you didn't own a ps2? Bummer, even though it suffered a massive failure rate as well, it had some pretty awesome games.

I don't know. The price people pay for quality. They say it's all about the games. Well I call bullshit on that. What the hell are you playing those games on. The two go hand in hand. You can't have one over the other it's as simple as that.

"It's all about the games." It's a nice mantra if you're getting royally screwed.

Ok, rant over.

Rash', yeah I know... I also dig Marx, but the guy is dead, so I heard.

Rash': well, if you don't want to miss out, what else are you going to do?

I mean, how risk averse do you have to be to turn down the chance to play the 360's catalogue, have Live etc., because there's only an 84% chance that it won't be temporarily interrupted while you wait for a repair? Do you refuse to leave the house because there's a 16% chance you may catch a cold within your lifetime?

I dont know anyone, and I know about 100 people with 360s, that havent had one fail (including myself). I guess I must just attract losers ;) :)

Some numbers from Wikipedia:

"All [Xbox 360] consoles manufactured after June 2007 have a second GPU heatsink to reduce overheating."

"Microsoft [...] shipped 11.6 million units cumulative to June 30, 2007."

So that's 11.6 million units that are very likely to overheat, while (17.7 million total shipped minus 11.6 non-heatproofed boxes =)
6.1 million may be concidered less significantly less likely to suffer RROD. Not all these 6.1 miliion have Falcon chips in them, but quite a few.

Another interesting figure:
If we concider 16.4% failure rate to be correct, then 16.4 percent of 17.7 million shipped units equals 2.9 million.
That putse the actual installed base of Xbox 360 consoles at (17.7 mill shipped units minus 2.9 million failed units) =14,8 million.

For those watching the consoles war, it might be interesting to note that the PS3 had sold 10.5 million worldwide (january 1 2008, Sony's figure).

Allowing for a 3 % PS3 failure rate (315 000 returned units), this should mean that the actual gap between the two next-gens are about 4 million. So Microsoft is till the clear leader, but the gap might be closing faster than what announced figures indicate.

Personally, I think this is good, sorta: Microsoft is a very competitive company, and they perform better under pressure. So it is good for everyone, not least xbox owners, that Sony is gaining on them.

Olemak, how unfair it may seem, the ones who actualy had the rings shit, had to pay for their consoles, so I can't relate the "closing the gap" with the consoles that went to repair (and most likely back - do you think ppl actualy throw their 360s to the garbage - and I mean, the ones that actualy bought the darn thing, not friends' of friends).

Well, my 360 is still working fine after around six months. Might not sound like much to brag about, but considering my usual luck with any electronic components more advanced than a floor lamp, that's actually not half bad.

Fried mainboards, fried PC power supplies, bad RAM, dead fans, dead harddrives, dead CPUs, dead monitors - hell, even one or two dead floor lamps over the years.
When I buy a computer, a TV, a console, whatever these days, I'm optimistically hoping it will last 6-8 months before at least one more or less vital part decide that that was just about long enough, thank you and goodbye.

As a particular clever way of mocking me, the mainboard of one my desktop PCs fried (literally, unpleasant burnt smell and all) a few months back. I checked the invoice - I had bought it exactly one year earlier, right down to the very same date.

Fuck I hate modern electronics. And I love it. Kind of a difficult relationship really :p.

Anyway, I had the "dead pixels shit" (damn!, why didn't it get a cool acronym?) with 3 PSPs, where the last one - because it had less than 5 - wasn't replaced by Sony, and those shiny assholes keep starring at me, all the freaking time!

@monkie_king: The question is; miss out on what? If it's being there first for all the exclusives then yes I'm prepared to miss out. Those games aren't going anywhere. When Microsoft get their act together and fix the shit they got themselves in, drop the price (because I don't agree with their hardware pricing) then I think it's worth investing. Now, they'd just screw me over while offering pity gesture of compensation. 360 has great software, which I want to savour, but not like this. If they want my money they'll have to work harder to get it because some far I'm not convinced they know what they're doing with all that money they're throwing at the problem.

My 360's been working fine from launch, but I know loads and loads of people that have had either RROD or DVD failures. I fully expect my 360 to fail so I tend to buy my games for PS3 now unless their exclusive to 360.

PS3, I must say, is a much nicer machine IMO, reliable, quiet, wifi, great games, Internet browser, media player, PSN has quality games and the XMB is clean and easy to use/navigate.

I've been a fan of 360 but I'm loosing interest in the platform now, while most 3rd party games perform marginally better on 360 it's not enough these days to overcome the biggest annoyance I have with 360 which is the noise and fear of hardware failure.

Rash', that's fair enough, but I missed the 1st Resident Evil, am I going to play it now? I hope not.

Many decisions lie ahead, none of them easy.

Miiguel:

"lemak, how unfair it may seem, the ones who actualy had the rings shit, had to pay for their consoles, so I can't relate the "closing the gap" with the consoles that went to repair (and most likely back - do you think ppl actualy throw their 360s to the garbage - and I mean, the ones that actualy bought the darn thing, not friends' of friends). "

No, I mean that the repair guys don't actually get their soldering irons out and start replacing individual components when an X-box comes in for RROD repair. They just chuck the old one and replace it - at least the innards of it - with a new one. They probably keep some of the componetns that are not FUBAR, though, like the case and drives etc, but it is unlikely that these components are sent back to the same customer (who probably should have detached his HDD before sending it in for repair/replacement anyway).

I may be wrong, but I have getting the impression that the 17.7 million is the total number of Xbox 360 consoles shipped from factories, and that this figure includes replacement consoles. RROD consoles are replaced rather than repaired, like you'd repair a car. Consumer electronics just aren't "repaired" any more, pretty much any electronic appliance you take back to the shop are replaced or returned to the customer with a note saying, "not our problem, but good luck with it".

I could be wrong, though, maybe the replacements for RROD units are not included in the shipped total. Only Microsoft could clear that up, but they seem unwilling to comment on stuff like that.



Hey - is it reasonable to say that Xbox 360 consoles are now failing faster than they are selling?
Is the real installed base of (functional) Xbox 360 consoles actually dwindling?

Hey - is it reasonable to say that Xbox 360 consoles are now failing faster than they are selling?
no doubt, more even, I guess. In Europe no doubt.
In US it's harder, they sold 130K last month, but we'll get Manhatan, we already took Berlin.

You're quite well informed how the repair guys work, keep us posted, please.

Sorry, Rash, I'm just not getting the rationalisation you're making. Yes, the downside risk is that there's, say, a 16% chance that you'll need to send off your console at some point for repair, at some undetermined time in the future. The upside is a 100% certainty that you'll have access to the best games catalogue of any current console, which you can enjoy right now, and which aren't available anywhere else. That seems like a gamble worth taking.

If the £250 for the console is too much for you, then that's a completely different matter, but don't attempt to conflate it with the reliability issue. And I really can't see how you were able to justify the outlay on a PS3 in that case--Motorstorm, Resistance, Gripshift!?! Are you serious?

edit: actually Rash, looking at your EG games collection, I have to give you some respect: there's some good taste going on there, and you're clearly willing to go for non-mainstream platforms (DC, 'Cube, Xbox). And that just makes me more puzzled about why you've gone for the PS3 instead of the 360 ;)

Is headbog the biggest troll on eurogamer?

Yes!

Fooking hell 16% that's terrible. Just as bad as the PS2 then.

well they currently hav emine at the moment and this will be the 3rd time.... encase you didnt catch that THIRD TIME my 360 has broke and they said "were send you out a replacement refurbished one" i dont want a refurb i want a fuckin new one but they cant do that!! i love the xbox but its about as reliable as a chocolate fire gaurd!!

@Olemak

I may be wrong, but I have getting the impression that the 17.7 million is the total number of Xbox 360 consoles shipped from factories, and that this figure includes replacement consoles.

No, that figure does not include replacement consoles. MS does not provide replacement consoles, only refurbs (apart from launch time when there were no refurbs available), or your own console back. Ask anyone who (like me) has had their console RROD.

The only time that may be true is where people take their console back to the shop and get a brand new replacement in exchange - as long as the shop doesn't fob them off with phoning MS instead and the buyer insists on an exchange. It's a bit hard to come up with a figure for that.

EDIT: ^^ See the post above ;-)

monkie_king, Where are you getting your percentages from? From a research conducted on 1000 360 units?

Anyway let me simplify it further for you. I don't see the logic in spending money on hardware which is notoriously unreliable. I can see why you can't see that logic having invested in Microsoft's ticking bomb, but as a gamer on the outside I chose not to want to deal with the unnecessary agro.

I can't believe there are people on here doubting the figures off the back of the failure rates seen by a few friends they know.

This is a company whose ability to make money and stay in business depends on their figures being correct. Its stats like this that determine what they charge for their services. They are basically an insurance company, and nobody knows probability and failure rates better than insurance companies.

They have absolutely no reason to skew the figures in any way (though I'm not sure anyone has accused them of that actually). And 1000 units is plenty enough to get accurate stats from.

Who are we going to trust, professionals whose business it is to know this sort of thing? Or Bobby Internet and his six friends talking down the pub/youth club about how RRDO suxorz big?


"Fact is, anyone who bought an original XBOX 360 is going to have their console die at some point."

Err, no. 16% of them will. Numbers, confusing aren't they.


16% is actually lower than I expected, which is perhaps a good thing, relatively speaking.

I never use mine for more than an hour at time in fear it will die again !

"Who are we going to trust, professionals whose business it is to know this sort of thing? Or Bobby Internet and his six friends talking down the pub/youth club about how RRDO suxorz big? "

Bobby dude, for sure. I read an article on the user comments that said "PS3 outselling 360 7-1 in France, because yesterday I spent the whole day at Game and I saw 7 people leaving with a PS3 and 1 with a 360, am back there today! Whata glorious day!"

"I never use mine for more than an hour at time in fear it will die again !"

I'm sorry I know I shouldn't but lol! I mean come! Is this what you call state of the art technology? I just find the whole situation ludicrous. Microsoft should be getting sued this rather than the sorry suit against them for Live disruptions. I have no sympathy for them. The guys having to deal with this shit however I feel for you.

kangarootoo, 16% and rising. Re-read the article.

I think the RRoD problem comes from heavy usage. The are still millions of gamers (especially kids who's parents limit their game time and adults who have little time for games) that don't hammer their consoles as much as we do. Or at least those who post on gaming websites while at work then go home to play the rest of the evening. It does seems like 60%+ of forum readers/posters have had the problem. I've had 1 RRoD after 2 years playing 3-5 evenings a week. I would believe the failure rate is between a tenth and a fifth for all 360 owners but I would also concede it is MUCH higher for the "more than" casual gamer.

@Rash': "I don't see the logic in spending money on hardware which is notoriously unreliable."

To enjoy the games and online experience that you can't obtain elsewhere, innit. Still, I drive an Alfa so am clearly in the demograpic that's willing to risk a few reliability issues in return for the payoff.

I work at Gamestation and the amount of faulty Xbox's we get back is truly staggering. Infact one of my mates is now on his sixth console! You should have seen how close he was to scrapping the whole thing and getting a PS3.

Having said that I've had a pre-owned 360 since November and haven't really had any trouble with it as of yet.

Supercars are notoriously unreliable and the most expensive to purchase - the price means you would expect the opposite - either way it doesn't mean using them isn't fun.

Let's be honest ya can pick up an entire machine for less than the cost of a great graphics card. 360 and PS3 for the win.

monkie_king: Ok you want to go there, then I have no issue with not playing Halo 3 and Orange Box now. And that online experience is just another expense, so I don't see the 360 experience as that rosy. Incidently, Burnout and Call of Duty are fantastic online... for free. There, I said.

Ultimate all three consoles will offer something the others can't, but where as two offer that reliably, 360 can't. We all talk about big corporations with some disdain. Here's one that actually offers a reason to bemoan their practices and yet there those that are blindsighted by their investment. I can understand why.

I think the RRoD problem comes from heavy usage.

I read somewhere that the problem comes from expansion/cooling (whatever the correct term is) resulting from rapidly powering the box on/off/on, rather than simply leaving the box on for a long time. No idea if it is true though, although it seemed to match what happened in my own RROD scenario.

Rash', don't twist the argument and go off on a different tangent. You're basically saying, in this thread, that you won't buy a 360 because of the reliability. As a rational person, that offends me--the argument doesn't make logical sense. And as a gamer, it pisses me off too, because people end up denying themselves access to the best games of this generation on the grounds of a fallacy.

It seems like the RROD thing is really just an excuse you're using to rationalise the PS3 to yourself. Please mention the awesome capacity of Blu-Ray in your response.

"This is a company whose ability to make money and stay in business depends on their figures being correct."

No, no, no. Being correct is irrelevant. It's about being perceived as having the correct data. Which in most cases can be achieved by having any data at all. You won't believe how little actually useful data is available within large companies.

@monkie_king: Like I said, I can understand your ignorance, but I'm not going to repeat myself to satisfy you. However, who are you to suggest I'm depriving myself of anything? I chose not to purchase a rushed piece of unreliable hardware because I don't believe it to be necessary for me to have to go through that bullshit to play a few exclusives. I have two of the current gen consoles and they gratify my gaming appetite immensely. To purchase another on the grounds that I should be playing those exclusives as soon as they arrive isn't rational or economically sound. 360 has a great libriary of games but it isn't a well designed console and not fairly priced. As a free thinking consumer I am well with my rights to not give a damn about it's catalog until I am convinced my money will be well spent. On 360 at the moment that is not the case. I'll fill you in on another bit of news, I'm not alone in that logic, so whether my logic agrees with you or not I don't give a damn.

No more thing, don't preach about the sanctity of being a gamer on a site dedicated to gamers. It doesn't make you look clever.

Rash': Madness?! THIS IS SPARTAA!!!11 .-)

It should also be noted that in the UK, and maybe some other countries, the day MS admitted that there's a manufacturing fault in the 360 is the day that you got yourself a lifetime warranty