360 failure rate put at 16 per cent

By Ellie Gibson Published 14 February, 2008

And set to increase, says SquareTrade.

SquareTrade, a firm specialising in selling electronics warranties, is claiming the failure rate for Xbox 360 consoles is 16.4 per cent.

As reported by 1UP, SquareTrade based the figure on a sample of 1000 consoles. Sample lots "in the high hundreds" of PlayStation 3 and Wii units gave a failure rate of just 3 per cent.

According to SquareTrade CEO Steve Abernethy, the overheating problem associated with Microsoft's console may cause the failure rate to climb.

"It is reasonable to believe these failure rates will increase over time, since the Xbox 360 failure issues tend to increase with prolonged use where overheating appears the main culprit," he said.

The company's data states the 'Red Rings of Death' error accounted for around 60 per cent of the sample failures. Of the different hardware variations of the Xbox 360, Abernethy stated that of the associated problems he "would estimate most if not all were the original motherboard".

Last year, you may recall, Xbox boss Peter Moore apologised to gamers whose 360s had busted. Microsoft extended the warranty of the machine to three years and agreed to pay for repairs. The company declined to offer a solid failure rate figure but Moore told our friends GamesIndustry.biz, "You know it when you see it. We saw it, and it was unacceptable."

This morning a Microsoft spokesperson told GI.biz, "The majority of Xbox 360 owners have had a great experience with their consoles. We do not disclose internal hardware repair data and we do not comment on speculation."

Which ought to cheer up Eurogamer's Bert, Rich and Scott, all of whom have suffered from dead Xbox 360s within the past month.

Picture of Ellie.

About Ellie Gibson

Since joining Eurogamer in the mid 2000s, Ellie has written about subjects as diverse as the fall of Gizmondo, the rise of Hollyoaks actresses in Red Alert games and the noise a bear makes under NSFW circumstances.

Read more articles from Ellie by visiting the Ellie Gibson archive page.

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Comments (123) Latest comment 4 years ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Zomoniac #1 4 years ago

    Well that's half what was speculated last year, which I guess is a good thing.

  • SlackMaster #2 4 years ago

    I had two RROD consoles, but all were swapped out pretty quickly. The motherboad in the new Arcade Core deal is supposed to have the new smaller motherboard that solves the overheating problem.

  • LHH #3 4 years ago

    I've had the rrod. The second's dvd drive died. Touch wood for my 3rd one - still going!

  • symbiote #4 4 years ago

    So, 360 is over FIVE TIMES as likely to fail as a Wii or PS3?

    Lol

  • penhalion #5 4 years ago

    Consoles made in 2007 all have the new motherboard so I'm a little suprised that they expect the failure rate to climb instead of fall, especially as they even admit that most or all of the failures are caused by the OLD motherboard.

    I guess if I were microsoft I may want to look into just who funded this study.......

  • Drpwnage #6 4 years ago

    If only MS had made the decision to use a decent hardware sub-contractor to assemble the 360 and not some cheap Chinese jobbing shop!

  • Wash #7 4 years ago

    Is headbog the biggest troll on eurogamer?

  • jonsaan #8 4 years ago

    Well I've said this before but....I had four of them and they all failed. So it's 100% for me, and as the consumer that's all I care about. My experience.

  • G3org3 #9 4 years ago

    we have the attach rate 7games per console but then again 1 out of 6 consoles doesnt stay attached to its owner :S
    never trusted MS and things like that help me change my mind NOT

  • Schiraman #10 4 years ago

    The high failure rate is all that's kept me from buying a 360, if MS ever give me reason to believe they've solved it then I'll probably buy one. Unfortunately MS are so keen to keep quiet about the changes they do make to the console that it's really hard to tell whether a given 360 has updated components, or what specific difference those components make.

  • Penguinzoot #11 4 years ago

    @Bloodkult

    They need to stop sending out fucked ones when you send one in for a repair.
    It should be a straight swap for a new falcon model, none of this recycling the old shit.

    It's not recyling old shit though. Very often, the only thing that isn't junked out after a refurb is the case itself. AFAIK every refurb had a new mobo, which from now on I presume would be a Falcon, and sometimes a new DVD drive. It did take a long time for MS to figure out a final solution to the RROD, so maybe that is what the study alludes when suggesting the figure may go up - i.e. there are still a lot of 360s out there without the "final" rev Falcon mobo which are still vulnerable and may likely fail.

  • GamesConnoisseur #12 4 years ago

    I only had one RROD and have a few X360 mates who hasnt had a problem, one thought he did but was just a video cable that got loosened a bit.

    So 16 percent does indicate for me that the percentage of RROD in my circle to be basically correct, and some other must have just gobsmacking astounding extreme streak of bad luck (for 16 percent odd) to have 4 RRODs in a row and also their mates, neighbours and the postman?!

    However it could be RROD chance varies in hot countries compared to the more cooler ones? I m up in Newcastle and that may account for my rarity of misfortune despite the sizeable hours of gaming?!
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 11:16

  • LiamK #13 4 years ago

    I'm taking the optimistic approach of thinking that when/if mine goes (it's lasted a year and a half at this point), hopefully it'll be swapped for one with HDMI socket that's maybe a bit quieter. In fact, if it's still working in a year's time, I might have to leave it on the radiator or something to get it failing good and proper.

  • ParanoidZombie #14 4 years ago

    i'd like to find ps2's failure rate, because 3 ps2s died on me from 2001 to 2006, and my 1st 360 is still going strong after 15 months. I guess I have one of the 85% reliable ones.

  • MrChuckles #15 4 years ago

    MY DVD drive died in my 360, the whole unit was replaced within a week and has worked fine ever since. I was pretty impressed with the speed they got it back to me more than being annoyed it broke in teh first place.

  • Carpathian #16 4 years ago

    Had four 360's

    Had four 360's die from RROD, between 6months and 2weeks usage for each.

    Had terrible returns hassles, including one of them taking 8 weeks to come back.

    Shrugged my shoulders and flogged my fourth one for nearly the cover price I originally paid.

    Won't now touch another with your bargepole

    The above would make you think I was somehow against Microsoft or a PS3 bot but the sad truth is that the games on the 360 were excellent and the Live! service is head and shoulders above anything so far tried by any other side - giving up on the machine was a real shame but inevitable until something is done about it. There are titles out for it now I really want to play but my faith has been eroded, machine by machine, and it's this they must realise is happening and take seriously.

    Still, the bright side is that I dug my Cube out and got my stash of games from the cupboard - still cracking and still works fine after 18months of not being touched. Oh well.

  • Bertie Verified Senior Staff Writer, Eurogamer.net #17 4 years ago

    Which ought to cheer up Eurogamer's Bert, Rich and Scott, all of whom have suffered from dead Xbox 360s within the past month.

    /CRY

  • G3org3 #18 4 years ago

    Eventhough Sony has no excuse for the fail rates of past (16.4% i think was never reached though)
    technology has evovled enough to solve most of heating problems and motherboard inefficiencies
    for the time being i have to say one thing if the ever arrogand Sony can make CELL a power hungry monster as quiet and as Cool
    i think MS has no excuse none so ever for its machine with all those different versions of it....

    once again she fails my trust when this all gone by perhaps i ll consider it but for now NOT

  • oreillymj #19 4 years ago

    If I had an early machine close to the warranty expiring, I'd block up all the vents bar one. Attach a hairdryer on full blast, then leave the thing running Halo 3 until it dies.

    Get a replacement unit that may actually continue working until Xbox720.


    BTW, it's not dodgy Chinese contractors to blame, but MS's incompetent design team. the rushed the console out to beat Sony, without obviously doing adequate soak testing.

  • Corben_Dallas #20 4 years ago

    5th XB 360
    :|

    are elites any better?

  • miiiguel #21 4 years ago

    That's a lie, it's 30%, read EGs foruns!

    The sad true is I'm one of the 84% that never had those rings (I really wanted, no shit), I have 3 360s and haven't seen that. I want to see that thing!
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 10:35

  • Velios #22 4 years ago

    More Sony Propaganda leaked into the press... It's a conspiracy!

  • G3org3 #23 4 years ago

    oreillymj

    from what we read you really wouldnt need to try all that much to make it stop working
    plus you would be fairly optimistic to believe it would last till near expiration (of warranty cough cough) date
    since some in here have had 4 already,,,,(MS says we are happy with shipment figures lol)

  • miiiguel #24 4 years ago

    Tell me what to do G3org3, tell me, please!

    Nevermind, just realised you don't even own one..., yet of course you friend of someone's friend who 4 (or is it 5) died on him.
    Edited by 2 at 14/02/08 @ 10:41

  • convercide #25 4 years ago

    I'd say that's about right. About that percentage of my friends list has had the RRoD.

    I bet this becomes another 200 posts of 'my console is better than your console.' It's almost like EG wants the attention...

  • monkie_king #26 4 years ago

    Not disputing the figure, but is a company that sells console warranties necessarily the best source for this? I mean, could it possibly be that they're scaremongering to drum up business, perhaps?

  • JHuxley #27 4 years ago

    The company's data states the 'Red Rings of Death' error accounted for around 60 per cent of the sample failures.

    Which would mean...

    Last year, you may recall, Xbox boss Peter Moore apologised to gamers whose 360s had busted. Microsoft extended the warranty of the machine to three years and agreed to pay for repairs

    ...that around 40% of broken 360's don't fall under the terms of this 'extended warranty'. Assuming the 'Red Rings of Death' error above actually refers to the infamous 3 RROD error.

  • markypants #28 4 years ago

    I recieved my 3rd Xbox last Friday from being repaired and it died again this Monday. That means that 4 Xboxes in under 2 years have died on me... I have just ordered a PS3 and will start buying the multiplatform releases on that. I'm a huge fan of the Xbox, but there is nothing more frustrating than being 3 weeks without a gaming machine. Annoying to say the least.

  • muscleblade #29 4 years ago

    Dont see the problem here. My first 360 bought on release died right before Chrismas. I didnt want to wait for a new one so i bought another one. When i got the new one back i just traded it in for some games. No hassle and didnt loose any gaming time or money either.

  • lennon #30 4 years ago

    Ive had two 360's now. Both have been fine and only once did I get a RROD which was solved by taking the HDD out and putting it back in.

    Never had a problem with my original xbox but dont get me started on the reliability of the ps2! ;)

  • BadBoyBonner #31 4 years ago

    I have been caning my 360 from day one minimum 4 hours a day and it is fine the other I have for upstairs is fine too. Not feeling quite so lucky if failure rate is 16% as opposed to 30%.

    With the MS pledge of 3 years RTB I can't understand why anyone would be put off from buying one. Especially with the bargains available from Argos in the software stakes - do yourself a favor and jump on the 360 bandwagon - it's my fav console since the SNES.

  • BadBoyBonner #32 4 years ago

    Let's be honest here.

    Anyone who has only ever owned a cartridge based console and then moved to a 360 will think a cornflake packet could have formed a better chasis for a console than the 360's and something that fell from said cornflake packet would behave more reliably than the 360 does.

    Anyone who has ever built/owned and run a PC for any given length of time as a games machine, thinks the odd RROD on 360 is a piece of p**s.




  • thenastypasty #33 4 years ago

    iv had my 360 since launch but had rrod last tuesday, they should not have released a console that had not been tested enough ,it is still the best console to play games on though !!

  • JHuxley #34 4 years ago

    "With the MS pledge of 3 years RTB I can't understand why anyone would be put off from buying one."

    That warranty only covers 3 RROD, which according to this article is around 60% of all faliures. So even taking in to account this warranty, 360's are still over twice as likely to fail compared to other hardware, and MS won't do shit about it unless you pay them.

    So yes...I am put off buying one again.

  • Velios #35 4 years ago

    I've had my XBOX since release and it has never let me down, and it gets used for 3-4 hours each day and sometimes as much as 12 hours at a time at weekends.

    All you tards with RROD probably had yours stood vertical on the carpet or something, what do you expect?

    Loosers!

    LOL

  • Velios #36 4 years ago

    @ Carpathian (who has managed to break FOUR xbox's)

    You must be fucking up those consoles somehow mate, seriously.

  • jonthepymm #37 4 years ago

    Remember that the warranty covers rrod only. Fine for my first 360 when it achieved the lovely 3 red lights, but no good for my second which had DVD drive failure. On my 3rd now, but my heart is already with the PS3.

  • doragor #38 4 years ago

    @ JHuxley

    you sure about that? my first reason to return my 360 was a faulty disk drive and not RROD and that didn't cost me at all.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 11:17

  • doragor #39 4 years ago

    @ Velios

    I never move my 360 and got RROD twice. The first time I received a replacement it went RROD within 24 hours.
    What exactly do you think I'm *doing* to it bar putting discs into it and then sitting 6 feet away?

  • slivir #40 4 years ago

    Going to buy my second xbox next week, I hope this one lasts a bit longer.

  • Rash' #41 4 years ago

    I just find it shocking that the company hasn't had serious legal action taken against it for negligible conduct. It may be greatest console for the established gaming genres, but there's no price for quality hardware... Or maybe there is, why else would so many gamers put up with the constant uncertainty in their gaming.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 11:22

  • miiiguel #42 4 years ago

    I just wish Sony could liberate us girls form male white corporate opression...
    Kool..., Kool thing

  • syphaa #43 4 years ago

    Im on my fourth. Incredibly frustrating as the last time I sent mine off I got it back and it RROD'd again within two weeks. I rang up complained, they sent me a complimentary wireless pad and promised to sort the problem. I now have the same xbox 360 back in my hands and all is well. It sounds like they have completly replaced the insides as it is a lot quieter than my previous returns. Its always stated as a mobo problem. Every single one of my friends who has a 360 has at least sent one back. Nuts. Its annoying because when the console is working its the best on the market.

  • bozman #44 4 years ago

    16%? Pull the other one! Out of 12 people at work who I know have a 360 - 2 have not yet had the RROD. I was praying mine would go before the warranty ended and sure enough just before Xmas it went. To their credit, MS had it back to me within 10 days - that's including xmas and new year + a complimentary month of Live. I'd be amazed to hear of a launch machine still running after 3 years. It's onlya matter of time before it goes.

    Incidentally my SNES bought in 1993 is still working beautifully 15 years later :oD (aside from discolouration on the light grey plastic!)

  • JHuxley #45 4 years ago

    @doragor

    Pretty sure. When my 360 died I rang MS and they were about to tell me to f*ck off until I mentioned it was 3 RROD.

    And they will fix any hardware failure as long as it falls within the first 12 months of purchase, which is the standard guarantee.

  • Jac #46 4 years ago

    I ate my 360

  • Rash' #47 4 years ago

    I find it even more amazing gamers are buying the damn thing twice knowing full well there no guarantees that the new one will be any better. I mean, what have they fixed in the new motherboards? I've read storys suggesting the new motherboards are no better. It's crazy! Gamers are paying around £600 for the prevail of playing on a console they know is a liability. It's ridiculous! Madness!

  • miiiguel #48 4 years ago

    Don't pull your hair out.
    I wnat you to know that we can still be friends.
    Let everybody know!

    Kool thing.
    Edited by 2 at 14/02/08 @ 11:30

  • Rash' #49 4 years ago

    It's like renting a console which you know ultimately you'll have to return.

  • Olemak #50 4 years ago

    The RROD percentage among eurogamers is probably higer than for the general populace, as people who read and post here are most likely gamers who use their consoles more than average joes. Increased use -> increaced chance of overheating -> RROD.

    The actual number may indeed be higher than 16 % or so, as the boxes seem just as likely to break down after a good while (like a few months or even a year), as after a week. Perhaps the RROD is really 100 % for the original, non-falcon X-boxes, maybe they'll all die of overheating if used intensely (graphics heavy gaming) for too long (more than a few hours, I guess) in a less than ideal environment (not very well ventilated and cooled). Who knows. Maybe a good portion of the boxes that have not failes are simply not being used much, or maybe a cood chuunk of them have third-party cooling systems installed, what do I know.

    What is interesting, is that if we take the 16 % failure rate at face value, and concider that Microsoft have shipped about 17 360ies - probably well past one 18 million now, I'd bet - than about three million of them (!) could have died already, and more of them likely to do so. That, of course, has an effect on the total installed base, which is then logically about 10 to 20 percent lower than the "shipped units figure" that Microsoft has announced.

    On the other hand, only the non-falcon xboxes get RROD, so the calculation is far from exact. It would therefor be interesting to know how many non-falcons Xbox have shipped (sold), and what the failure rate for the non-falcons are. That is most likely even higher than 16 percent, it seems.

    Myself, I am waiting for the Jasper xbox, which should arrive in august. Even though Falcons are more reliable, they're still to noisy.

  • miiiguel #51 4 years ago

    It's a mad world.

  • FabricatedLunatic #52 4 years ago

    Before my 360 checked out on Tuesday, I wondered whether the whole red lights issue was an elaborate urban myth. And even if it was true, I'd never had a console fail on me - even the notoriously feeble PS2 has endured hundreds of hours of use - so I thought I was bulletproof.

    In short: 16 per cent LOL

  • speedjack #53 4 years ago

    My 360 RROD'ed on me mid Jan after just over 2 years of service.

    Got it back 2 weeks ago with a new DVD drive and motherboard installed.

    It worked for around 40 mins then failed again with another RROD and is now back at the repair center.

    As a result I have little faith in their repair process and are concerned that they simply swapping bad parts out with bad in the hope that it will postpone another inevitable failure.

  • THEGREATMADMAN #54 4 years ago

    I was actually expecting it to be a lot higher...

  • monkie_king #55 4 years ago

    still, it's well worth it for the games.

  • kentmonkey #56 4 years ago

    Are all of the Elites the new 'Falcon' model now, or is there still a chance of getting a 'soon-to-brick' one?

  • Rash' #57 4 years ago

    monkie_king wrote: "still, it's well worth it for the games."

    See what I mean!

    miiiguel, it is a mad world.

  • Xerx3s #58 4 years ago

    Headbog: So you are saying that you didn't own a ps2? Bummer, even though it suffered a massive failure rate as well, it had some pretty awesome games.

  • Rash' #59 4 years ago

    I don't know. The price people pay for quality. They say it's all about the games. Well I call bullshit on that. What the hell are you playing those games on. The two go hand in hand. You can't have one over the other it's as simple as that.

    "It's all about the games." It's a nice mantra if you're getting royally screwed.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 11:56

  • Rash' #60 4 years ago

    Ok, rant over.

  • miiiguel #61 4 years ago

    Rash', yeah I know... I also dig Marx, but the guy is dead, so I heard.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 11:58

  • monkie_king #62 4 years ago

    Rash': well, if you don't want to miss out, what else are you going to do?

    I mean, how risk averse do you have to be to turn down the chance to play the 360's catalogue, have Live etc., because there's only an 84% chance that it won't be temporarily interrupted while you wait for a repair? Do you refuse to leave the house because there's a 16% chance you may catch a cold within your lifetime?

  • Fab4 #63 4 years ago

    I dont know anyone, and I know about 100 people with 360s, that havent had one fail (including myself). I guess I must just attract losers ;) :)

  • Olemak #64 4 years ago

    Some numbers from Wikipedia:

    "All [Xbox 360] consoles manufactured after June 2007 have a second GPU heatsink to reduce overheating."

    "Microsoft [...] shipped 11.6 million units cumulative to June 30, 2007."

    So that's 11.6 million units that are very likely to overheat, while (17.7 million total shipped minus 11.6 non-heatproofed boxes =)
    6.1 million may be concidered less significantly less likely to suffer RROD. Not all these 6.1 miliion have Falcon chips in them, but quite a few.

    Another interesting figure:
    If we concider 16.4% failure rate to be correct, then 16.4 percent of 17.7 million shipped units equals 2.9 million.
    That putse the actual installed base of Xbox 360 consoles at (17.7 mill shipped units minus 2.9 million failed units) =14,8 million.

    For those watching the consoles war, it might be interesting to note that the PS3 had sold 10.5 million worldwide (january 1 2008, Sony's figure).

    Allowing for a 3 % PS3 failure rate (315 000 returned units), this should mean that the actual gap between the two next-gens are about 4 million. So Microsoft is till the clear leader, but the gap might be closing faster than what announced figures indicate.

    Personally, I think this is good, sorta: Microsoft is a very competitive company, and they perform better under pressure. So it is good for everyone, not least xbox owners, that Sony is gaining on them.

  • miiiguel #65 4 years ago

    Olemak, how unfair it may seem, the ones who actualy had the rings shit, had to pay for their consoles, so I can't relate the "closing the gap" with the consoles that went to repair (and most likely back - do you think ppl actualy throw their 360s to the garbage - and I mean, the ones that actualy bought the darn thing, not friends' of friends).
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 12:11

  • Miths #66 4 years ago

    Well, my 360 is still working fine after around six months. Might not sound like much to brag about, but considering my usual luck with any electronic components more advanced than a floor lamp, that's actually not half bad.

    Fried mainboards, fried PC power supplies, bad RAM, dead fans, dead harddrives, dead CPUs, dead monitors - hell, even one or two dead floor lamps over the years.
    When I buy a computer, a TV, a console, whatever these days, I'm optimistically hoping it will last 6-8 months before at least one more or less vital part decide that that was just about long enough, thank you and goodbye.

    As a particular clever way of mocking me, the mainboard of one my desktop PCs fried (literally, unpleasant burnt smell and all) a few months back. I checked the invoice - I had bought it exactly one year earlier, right down to the very same date.

    Fuck I hate modern electronics. And I love it. Kind of a difficult relationship really :p.

  • miiiguel #67 4 years ago

    Anyway, I had the "dead pixels shit" (damn!, why didn't it get a cool acronym?) with 3 PSPs, where the last one - because it had less than 5 - wasn't replaced by Sony, and those shiny assholes keep starring at me, all the freaking time!

  • Rash' #68 4 years ago

    @monkie_king: The question is; miss out on what? If it's being there first for all the exclusives then yes I'm prepared to miss out. Those games aren't going anywhere. When Microsoft get their act together and fix the shit they got themselves in, drop the price (because I don't agree with their hardware pricing) then I think it's worth investing. Now, they'd just screw me over while offering pity gesture of compensation. 360 has great software, which I want to savour, but not like this. If they want my money they'll have to work harder to get it because some far I'm not convinced they know what they're doing with all that money they're throwing at the problem.

  • onyxbox #69 4 years ago

    My 360's been working fine from launch, but I know loads and loads of people that have had either RROD or DVD failures. I fully expect my 360 to fail so I tend to buy my games for PS3 now unless their exclusive to 360.

    PS3, I must say, is a much nicer machine IMO, reliable, quiet, wifi, great games, Internet browser, media player, PSN has quality games and the XMB is clean and easy to use/navigate.

    I've been a fan of 360 but I'm loosing interest in the platform now, while most 3rd party games perform marginally better on 360 it's not enough these days to overcome the biggest annoyance I have with 360 which is the noise and fear of hardware failure.



  • miiiguel #70 4 years ago

    Rash', that's fair enough, but I missed the 1st Resident Evil, am I going to play it now? I hope not.

    Many decisions lie ahead, none of them easy.

  • Olemak #71 4 years ago

    Miiguel:

    "lemak, how unfair it may seem, the ones who actualy had the rings shit, had to pay for their consoles, so I can't relate the "closing the gap" with the consoles that went to repair (and most likely back - do you think ppl actualy throw their 360s to the garbage - and I mean, the ones that actualy bought the darn thing, not friends' of friends). "

    No, I mean that the repair guys don't actually get their soldering irons out and start replacing individual components when an X-box comes in for RROD repair. They just chuck the old one and replace it - at least the innards of it - with a new one. They probably keep some of the componetns that are not FUBAR, though, like the case and drives etc, but it is unlikely that these components are sent back to the same customer (who probably should have detached his HDD before sending it in for repair/replacement anyway).

    I may be wrong, but I have getting the impression that the 17.7 million is the total number of Xbox 360 consoles shipped from factories, and that this figure includes replacement consoles. RROD consoles are replaced rather than repaired, like you'd repair a car. Consumer electronics just aren't "repaired" any more, pretty much any electronic appliance you take back to the shop are replaced or returned to the customer with a note saying, "not our problem, but good luck with it".

    I could be wrong, though, maybe the replacements for RROD units are not included in the shipped total. Only Microsoft could clear that up, but they seem unwilling to comment on stuff like that.



    Hey - is it reasonable to say that Xbox 360 consoles are now failing faster than they are selling?
    Is the real installed base of (functional) Xbox 360 consoles actually dwindling?

  • miiiguel #72 4 years ago

    Hey - is it reasonable to say that Xbox 360 consoles are now failing faster than they are selling?
    no doubt, more even, I guess. In Europe no doubt.
    In US it's harder, they sold 130K last month, but we'll get Manhatan, we already took Berlin.

    You're quite well informed how the repair guys work, keep us posted, please.
    Edited by 3 at 14/02/08 @ 12:46

  • monkie_king #73 4 years ago

    Sorry, Rash, I'm just not getting the rationalisation you're making. Yes, the downside risk is that there's, say, a 16% chance that you'll need to send off your console at some point for repair, at some undetermined time in the future. The upside is a 100% certainty that you'll have access to the best games catalogue of any current console, which you can enjoy right now, and which aren't available anywhere else. That seems like a gamble worth taking.

    If the £250 for the console is too much for you, then that's a completely different matter, but don't attempt to conflate it with the reliability issue. And I really can't see how you were able to justify the outlay on a PS3 in that case--Motorstorm, Resistance, Gripshift!?! Are you serious?

    edit: actually Rash, looking at your EG games collection, I have to give you some respect: there's some good taste going on there, and you're clearly willing to go for non-mainstream platforms (DC, 'Cube, Xbox). And that just makes me more puzzled about why you've gone for the PS3 instead of the 360 ;)
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 12:58

  • DAN.E.B #74 4 years ago

    Is headbog the biggest troll on eurogamer?

    Yes!

  • BartonFink #75 4 years ago

    Fooking hell 16% that's terrible. Just as bad as the PS2 then.

  • craft418 #76 4 years ago

    well they currently hav emine at the moment and this will be the 3rd time.... encase you didnt catch that THIRD TIME my 360 has broke and they said "were send you out a replacement refurbished one" i dont want a refurb i want a fuckin new one but they cant do that!! i love the xbox but its about as reliable as a chocolate fire gaurd!!

  • Penguinzoot #77 4 years ago

    @Olemak

    I may be wrong, but I have getting the impression that the 17.7 million is the total number of Xbox 360 consoles shipped from factories, and that this figure includes replacement consoles.

    No, that figure does not include replacement consoles. MS does not provide replacement consoles, only refurbs (apart from launch time when there were no refurbs available), or your own console back. Ask anyone who (like me) has had their console RROD.

    The only time that may be true is where people take their console back to the shop and get a brand new replacement in exchange - as long as the shop doesn't fob them off with phoning MS instead and the buyer insists on an exchange. It's a bit hard to come up with a figure for that.

    EDIT: ^^ See the post above ;-)

    Edited by 2 at 14/02/08 @ 13:17

  • Rash' #78 4 years ago

    monkie_king, Where are you getting your percentages from? From a research conducted on 1000 360 units?

    Anyway let me simplify it further for you. I don't see the logic in spending money on hardware which is notoriously unreliable. I can see why you can't see that logic having invested in Microsoft's ticking bomb, but as a gamer on the outside I chose not to want to deal with the unnecessary agro.

  • kangarootoo #79 4 years ago

    I can't believe there are people on here doubting the figures off the back of the failure rates seen by a few friends they know.

    This is a company whose ability to make money and stay in business depends on their figures being correct. Its stats like this that determine what they charge for their services. They are basically an insurance company, and nobody knows probability and failure rates better than insurance companies.

    They have absolutely no reason to skew the figures in any way (though I'm not sure anyone has accused them of that actually). And 1000 units is plenty enough to get accurate stats from.

    Who are we going to trust, professionals whose business it is to know this sort of thing? Or Bobby Internet and his six friends talking down the pub/youth club about how RRDO suxorz big?


    "Fact is, anyone who bought an original XBOX 360 is going to have their console die at some point."

    Err, no. 16% of them will. Numbers, confusing aren't they.


    16% is actually lower than I expected, which is perhaps a good thing, relatively speaking.

  • T-Bag #80 4 years ago

    I never use mine for more than an hour at time in fear it will die again !

  • miiiguel #81 4 years ago

    "Who are we going to trust, professionals whose business it is to know this sort of thing? Or Bobby Internet and his six friends talking down the pub/youth club about how RRDO suxorz big? "

    Bobby dude, for sure. I read an article on the user comments that said "PS3 outselling 360 7-1 in France, because yesterday I spent the whole day at Game and I saw 7 people leaving with a PS3 and 1 with a 360, am back there today! Whata glorious day!"
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 13:26

  • Rash' #82 4 years ago

    "I never use mine for more than an hour at time in fear it will die again !"

    I'm sorry I know I shouldn't but lol! I mean come! Is this what you call state of the art technology? I just find the whole situation ludicrous. Microsoft should be getting sued this rather than the sorry suit against them for Live disruptions. I have no sympathy for them. The guys having to deal with this shit however I feel for you.

  • Rash' #83 4 years ago

    kangarootoo, 16% and rising. Re-read the article.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 13:35

  • Luvbeers #84 4 years ago

    I think the RRoD problem comes from heavy usage. The are still millions of gamers (especially kids who's parents limit their game time and adults who have little time for games) that don't hammer their consoles as much as we do. Or at least those who post on gaming websites while at work then go home to play the rest of the evening. It does seems like 60%+ of forum readers/posters have had the problem. I've had 1 RRoD after 2 years playing 3-5 evenings a week. I would believe the failure rate is between a tenth and a fifth for all 360 owners but I would also concede it is MUCH higher for the "more than" casual gamer.

  • monkie_king #85 4 years ago

    @Rash': "I don't see the logic in spending money on hardware which is notoriously unreliable."

    To enjoy the games and online experience that you can't obtain elsewhere, innit. Still, I drive an Alfa so am clearly in the demograpic that's willing to risk a few reliability issues in return for the payoff.

  • Kyle #86 4 years ago

    I work at Gamestation and the amount of faulty Xbox's we get back is truly staggering. Infact one of my mates is now on his sixth console! You should have seen how close he was to scrapping the whole thing and getting a PS3.

    Having said that I've had a pre-owned 360 since November and haven't really had any trouble with it as of yet.

  • BadBoyBonner #87 4 years ago

    Supercars are notoriously unreliable and the most expensive to purchase - the price means you would expect the opposite - either way it doesn't mean using them isn't fun.

    Let's be honest ya can pick up an entire machine for less than the cost of a great graphics card. 360 and PS3 for the win.

  • Rash' #88 4 years ago

    monkie_king: Ok you want to go there, then I have no issue with not playing Halo 3 and Orange Box now. And that online experience is just another expense, so I don't see the 360 experience as that rosy. Incidently, Burnout and Call of Duty are fantastic online... for free. There, I said.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 14:12

  • Rash' #89 4 years ago

    Ultimate all three consoles will offer something the others can't, but where as two offer that reliably, 360 can't. We all talk about big corporations with some disdain. Here's one that actually offers a reason to bemoan their practices and yet there those that are blindsighted by their investment. I can understand why.
    Edited by 2 at 14/02/08 @ 14:31

  • Penguinzoot #90 4 years ago

    I think the RRoD problem comes from heavy usage.

    I read somewhere that the problem comes from expansion/cooling (whatever the correct term is) resulting from rapidly powering the box on/off/on, rather than simply leaving the box on for a long time. No idea if it is true though, although it seemed to match what happened in my own RROD scenario.

  • monkie_king #91 4 years ago

    Rash', don't twist the argument and go off on a different tangent. You're basically saying, in this thread, that you won't buy a 360 because of the reliability. As a rational person, that offends me--the argument doesn't make logical sense. And as a gamer, it pisses me off too, because people end up denying themselves access to the best games of this generation on the grounds of a fallacy.

    It seems like the RROD thing is really just an excuse you're using to rationalise the PS3 to yourself. Please mention the awesome capacity of Blu-Ray in your response.

  • Les #92 4 years ago

    "This is a company whose ability to make money and stay in business depends on their figures being correct."

    No, no, no. Being correct is irrelevant. It's about being perceived as having the correct data. Which in most cases can be achieved by having any data at all. You won't believe how little actually useful data is available within large companies.

  • Rash' #93 4 years ago

    @monkie_king: Like I said, I can understand your ignorance, but I'm not going to repeat myself to satisfy you. However, who are you to suggest I'm depriving myself of anything? I chose not to purchase a rushed piece of unreliable hardware because I don't believe it to be necessary for me to have to go through that bullshit to play a few exclusives. I have two of the current gen consoles and they gratify my gaming appetite immensely. To purchase another on the grounds that I should be playing those exclusives as soon as they arrive isn't rational or economically sound. 360 has a great libriary of games but it isn't a well designed console and not fairly priced. As a free thinking consumer I am well with my rights to not give a damn about it's catalog until I am convinced my money will be well spent. On 360 at the moment that is not the case. I'll fill you in on another bit of news, I'm not alone in that logic, so whether my logic agrees with you or not I don't give a damn.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 14:59

  • Rash' #94 4 years ago

    No more thing, don't preach about the sanctity of being a gamer on a site dedicated to gamers. It doesn't make you look clever.

  • 7creature #95 4 years ago

    Rash': Madness?! THIS IS SPARTAA!!!11 .-)

  • fruitpunch #96 4 years ago

    It should also be noted that in the UK, and maybe some other countries, the day MS admitted that there's a manufacturing fault in the 360 is the day that you got yourself a lifetime warranty

  • Calgon #97 4 years ago

    Rash' dont buy a 360 then thats your decision which you are entitled to make, yet why are you here preaching about how wrong/stupid(or any other obnoxious comment you can think of in the hopes you can bully them into your way of thinking... the Sony way) people are who are quite happy to look forwards instead of backwards or put up with a few inconveniences for the sake of what they feel is a great games machine which can only get better?

    Thats where youve gone wrong and why, really everything that doesnt constitute as trolling you could have added, could have been in your first post and most likely not have been met with any arguement.

    Your bases is on the past, now as a new buyer(of the falcon version) you have no idea of knowing the reliability (but it has improved theres no denying that, thats why I'll happily buy a falcon this year if I can afford it as a new buyer too). This is great for MS' competition and a prime target for FUD because from now on, no matter how reliable it is(even with newer versions), somebody will always be trying to cast doubt(this includes obsessive members of fanbases willing to go to extreem flag-waving lengths for their prefered brand... Apologie, Headbog, Les ect to name some obvious examples).

    The design itself was excellent on technical performance grounds it exceeded even Sony's expectations, the price is fair(but not "great value" for money anymore granted) even compared to the PS3 considering blu-ray only has worth if you are interested in blu-ray yet... I for one dont and wont do in the next 4-5 years either I suspect(also MS could be onto something with their Digital Distribution route... Im not about to start replacing any DVDs any time soon and the majority of new releases these days arent worth buying IMO... downloading a couple from a service like MS' every now and then out of curiosity though? maybe) The same goes for wi-fi if you dont use it what value does that hold to you? You'd never have bought it if it wasnt there anyway... it wouldnt be missed.

    Even if you disagree that the price is fair then wait a while by all means, a price drop is inevitable for both 360 and PS3, wait for the next major revision perhaps? In which case youd not beable to use either of those excuses... I doubt you can say that for the falcon 360 as it is but since it cant be proven and you most likely never had intention to nor ever will buy a 360 to begin with, its pointless trying to reason with you. If thats not completely true then I appologise but you know how trolls are, especially anti-ms ones.
    Edited by 7 at 14/02/08 @ 16:07

  • Gaol #98 4 years ago

    16% is wildly optimistic. Perhaps its 16% within one year from purchase, on a sample that includes a large number of machines that are only used occasionally.

    On a pre-falcon model used moderately for two years its clearly close to 100% due to inherent design flaws in the 360's cooling system.

    Heres a good story about the truth behind this fiasco. If I'd spent £300 on one of these ponies I'd be very unhappy. Not 'up in arms' or anything, but it'd certainly be a case of 'vote with your wallet'.

    [link url=http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jake_inside_sourc e_reveal_the_truth_about_xbox_360_red_ring_of_death_failures .php
    ]http://ww w.8bitjoystick.com/archives/jak...[/link]

    Here a good quote to wind up some fanboys:

    "In the end I think it was fear of failure, ambition to beat Sony, and the arrogance that they could figure anything out, that led to the decision to keep shipping.... Compare that to Sony, who delayed their launch, even though they were behind, when their box wasn't ready."

  • fruitpunch #99 4 years ago

    I hightly recommned and cooling device, like nyko usb powered fan, the do reduce temp.

    Those have been reported to completely fry xboxes power supplies, so i wouldn't rush out to buy one.

  • Calgon #100 4 years ago

    Gaol oh that old crap again(wondered how long it would be till someone posted it) "unnammed" inside source that appears to begrudge MS(obvious by the tone throughout that interview) = not nearly enough to convince me this is "the real truth honest", infact I think thats a prime example of FUD it wouldnt be beyond Sony you know.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 16:21

  • Gaol #101 4 years ago

    @Calgon

    Theres no real way of us knowing, but the facts do seem to fit with the evidence. As for Sony (or any competitor) somehow being responsible for that story, thats ludicrous. You'll be saying they sabotaged the motherboards in a night raid next. The problem is wholly of Microsofts making, why excuse it?

  • Calgon #102 4 years ago

    Gaol regardless of whether there is a problem or not(which there 'was'...) its easily exagerated and it would only benifit the competition if it were, FUD has been paid for before in business so its not ludicrous at all(so no its not some tinfoil hats theory as you tried to suggest with the motherboard sobbotage comments)... Sony did this last gen not only in their statements to the press at every opportunity but paid for peices in the media to create FUD towards first Dreamcast, then Xbox(Sony can and will fight dirty if they have to... moreso than any other thats joined the console race so far I feel).

    You are right theres no way of knowing but looking at it I just dont trust this source as I read it, it does read like a FUD peice, which is why you posted it too you have to concede.
    Edited by 7 at 14/02/08 @ 16:43

  • Gaol #103 4 years ago

    @Calgon

    If thats what you want to believe mate, I think all companies are pretty much the same in terms of ethics though tbh, ie. they don't have any. I can't argue with you anyway mate, its like I'm questioning a born again Christian's belief structure, and not discussing a £300 console.

  • Calgon #104 4 years ago

    Gaol you're the preacher here mate not me... pot calling the kettle and all that. ;)

    "I have the truth and the Sony lord has shown me the way, as it was written in the article of 8bitjoystick.com... trust not the Evil M$ and 360 my gaming friends for 'this isnt living' " :-P

    edit: nearly forgot the $
    Edited by 5 at 14/02/08 @ 16:55

  • Gaol #105 4 years ago

    If thats not a joke dude seek help.

    Seriously.

  • Calgon #106 4 years ago

    /checks some recent Gaol posts and strokes beard

    Gaol and you are normal? Not a troll?... riiiiight *cough* dude I mean Im serisouly.... move along please. ;)

    /doesnt own a 360, therefore has nothing to justify... just able to see things for what they are.

    Edited by 2 at 14/02/08 @ 17:11

  • Ryze #107 4 years ago

    headbog = tosser.

  • Ryze #108 4 years ago

    & yes, it's funny how all of the PS2 fans are forgetting its atrocious DVD drive failure rate.

    There aren't many PS2 owners who kept a launch console longer than 3 years without fault.

    Every PS2 owner I know has been through 2 or more consoles and my own DVD drive works only with some games some of the time, since late 2004/ early '05, after it was bought in time for GTAIII's launch in '01.

    So conveniently forgotten...

  • smelly #109 4 years ago

    You guys do realise that 16% is STILL a big number..

    Thats more than one in every 6 FFS!

    Think i'll hold off and get a ps3 when it gets something worth playing.

  • smelly #110 4 years ago

    >es, it's funny how all of the PS2 fans are forgetting its atrocious DVD drive failure rate.

    1. The ps2 sold considerably more units than the 360, and so you expect a few dodgy ones. And i can gaurantee it wasnt 1 in 6. But even if it was, even if it was 1 in 1 and every one of them broke down. That's not excusable for someone else to come along and release a shoddy product now is it?

    2. Regardless of what you're a "fan" of, why on hell would you stick up for shoddy hardware? We're consumers, we shouldnt tolerate a shoddy product! You seriously think that just because someone says that, they're a "sony fanboy" and you'll stand by your beloved xbox no matter how shoddy the hardware was?

    3. Why on hell are you a fan of the hardware to a point where you're sticking up for he hardware rather than the games?


    I dont care which console i chose, supported, etc. I wouldnt tollerate any shoddyness in anything i buy, be it console, tv, dvd player, etc. I sure as hell wouldn't be sticking up for LG if my tv kept breaking down!

    Gamers are weird.
    Edited by 1 at 14/02/08 @ 17:56

  • IneptPercy #111 4 years ago

    I had my release console die the other week so I can believe it.

    As for people conducting there own survey you have to consider the human nature of only report the bad things, people will mention theres has broke, but generally not mention if its still working. Much like i mentioned to people at work my console died, but up until them I nver said, 'my 360 is still working'.

    As some people have mentioned it would still appear to be the best console (in my opinion) and it going away doesn't bother me too much as I have a Wii and PC to still mess with.

    Also more failures are appearing with time, whos to know that all PS3's might not pop after 1.5 years? I don't think it will but you never know...

  • Ryze #112 4 years ago

    smelly is weird

  • Darren #113 4 years ago

    I don't know how much Microsoft paid SquareTrade to "lie" about that figure but a 16% failure rate for the Xbox 360 (or 1 out of every 6) seems way too low to me! I've been through five Xbox 360s in total of which three RROD'd so that's a 60% failure rate for moi. The Xbox 360 is a great machine for games but it's the shitiest made console ever as far as build quality is concerned. There's a very interested article about the Xbox 360 in this month's Edge which covers the failure rates (they say 30%) and it's a very interesting read.

  • White_Westie #114 4 years ago

    my 360 rrod on Saturday :-(. Its been collected and off for repair so should be a few weeks yet. Funny thing is i have a ps3, psp, wii and a pc and i feel like i am lost without my 360 ... I guess that's my lead console for games at the mo and since i have had it just over 2 years feel quite luck that its still under warranty. Its a great gadget there is no denying it. Shame it wasn't a bit more reliable but never mind :-(

  • vadimur #115 4 years ago

    I was thinking why some people keep getting replaced sets only to get RROD again, probably becos the repair centers got too many returned sets that they themselves could not handle the repairs & the deadlines set by MS, so take a portion & marked it as "passed". That's why there are some people who keeps getting back faulty "refurbished" sets.

    MS got it screwed up in the 1st place, in turns screws contractors down the line, in the end, customers get "it" again. Lol...so typical human behaviour if you work in a MNC, you see issues complicating different departments/parties, nobody knows what's going on...everybody just screws everybody up.

    The links to the interview is as real as you can get.

  • J.C #116 4 years ago

    I dont give a fucking shit if my 360 red rings, its the best system for games at the moment. so if it fucks up, i will be quite happy to wait for its return. like they say, absence makes the heart grow fonder :)

  • smelly #117 4 years ago

    I *genuinely* cant see why people are defending this?

    I mean, it's all fair game to be a fan of one system over another.. but if it's a shoddy product - why defend it?

  • convercide #118 4 years ago

    I defended MiniDisc at the time and my SONY player had a far worse failure rate than the 360. I had my MiniDisc player repaired 6 times in the space of 2 years. Because it was only twice in the first year, Dixons wouldn't replace it.

    In fact, considering it is only Microsofts's second attept at a console, they're not doing too badly. Here's a list of Sony products I've had fail:

    Sony MiniDisc portable (shoddy laser and digital input)
    Sony MiniDisc HiFi (shoddy laser)
    Sony portable CD player (oooohh, ohhhh yeah shoddy laser)
    2 x Sony CD stacks (first the amp gave up and then *drum roll* shoddy laser)
    Playstation 2 (you see where I'm going here? guess what failed)

    Both manufaturers suffer these problems but the 360 has had it worse due to the overexposure of it on the internet. I'm not saying it's good by any standard but would the Sony fanboys realise that Sony are renowned for it also. Remember the laptop battery fiasco?

    Like I've just said, the failure rate isn't acceptable but both Microsoft AND Sony aren't perfect.
    Edited by 2 at 15/02/08 @ 00:28

  • MightyMouse #119 4 years ago

    Can we please remove the irrational support and the obnoxious crowing from this discussion? Personally I have a PS3, had the 360 not had large reliability problems then I would have got that since it's cheaper and has better games, but in my experience dodgy hardware that you have to get replaced frequently is more hassle than it's worth. Is the problem fixed in the new 360's? I hope it is, and that every manufacturer learns from this whole debacle that it's unacceptable to produce this kind of thing.

  • bonker #120 4 years ago

    The light that burns 5 times as bright ......

  • tridentz_83 #121 4 years ago

    +1 to Smelly

    I dont own either console but honestly, I don't get why the 360 owners (Calgon and miiiguel for example) are defending shoddy hardware. As consumers, the greater our willingness to tolerate shoddy manufacturing only means we get chaffed in the long run. Speak out against MS, not defend them FFS u idiotic fanboys...
    Edited by 1 at 15/02/08 @ 10:25

  • Les #122 4 years ago

    “Like I've just said, the failure rate isn't acceptable but both Microsoft AND Sony aren't perfect.”

    And let’s not forget Nintendo…

    Every piece of electronics will have units that fail, so no manufacturer is perfect. It’s about the relative number of units that fail. For MS, that’s exceptionally high. For Sony and Nintendo apparently not.

    As for the correctness/accuracy of the 16%, for now it’s just a figure with no real explanation of what it’s based on (e.g. who are the people that typically make use of the company’s services?; what’s the composition of the 360s they have in their portfolio (I can imagine that the premium for an older model would be relatively high leading to less people opting for it for example)). We have this figure and the big pot of money MS set aside to cover the high failure rate. MS will probably be on the high side (to be safe), this figure will be on the lower side (and as they indicate, they expect it to rise). The truth is somewhere in between.
    Edited by 1 at 15/02/08 @ 11:46

  • Calgon #123 4 years ago

    As I said I dont own a 360(mixture of not liking the expense of gaming these days and waiting for the dust to settle along with waiting for reliability to improve ect) but 360 has always always seemed the better choice even if I was about to buy last year the only choice would have been to wait for the 360 revision for me. Sony could have some real problems if they dont get their act together this year IMO and the 2008 lineup trust me is very uninspiring to alot of gamers so I wouldn't be too excited for Sony's bank manager just yet(why some people care so passioinatly about that I dont know). Yes this RROD business shouldnt have happened, Im not defending that but what more can they do now though? Do you think this was intentional or mixture of hastyness and bad luck? Isnt it time to look forwards not backwards?

    a) They finally offered to do what was right and fix them for free, even pay back those who were out of pocket for their mistake.

    b) Falcon so far seems to be what was needed, the only people arguing with that now are hypocrites(they are waving flags for Sony you can bet Nintendo fanboys arent feeling half as insecure) they are the trolls they are the fanboys because they are armed with NOTHING but speculation or FUD!... all they want it is total abbandonment of 360 I mean WTF grow up seriously.

    c) For those not convinced enough for Falcon theres another big revision on the way this year( I may wait for that too... if not just for the hope that theyve addressed the noise)... will these people ever shut up about it though? No because they never really cared about "the poor gamers" in the first place is it not obvious? So even if it ends up the most reliable you will get the "you're all idiots buying shoddy hardware still" response when thats not true at all. As I said in their little minds they probably hope they can sort of bully people to jump ship or avoid MS totally. lol its pathetic the lengths they will go to, to defend their brands(hypocrisy when they say it of anyone else as can anyone think of any other reason theyd post so much on a console they dont like from a company they dont like?)

    Well I for one can see the situation for myself clear enough, so yeah this year seems like THE year if youve been unsure about the 360. It has the games and reliability issues arent as big a concern for new buyers anymore(you cannot argue with that) and from that perspective it can ONLY improve from here on out. Once the RROD worries have cleared from gamers and the general publics minds MS have a real chance to turn it back around and put a bit more distance between them and Sony and I hope they do so long as theyve addressed all the problems they needed to, they deserve a bit of good fortune(as I said what more can they do once the console is reliable? where is cause for hate then? you'll either ignore it and carry on or find something else as always).

    Edited by 5 at 15/02/08 @ 18:27