300: March to Glory Comments by Dave McCarthy

If a game is being made for the PSP and is a hack n slash combo bashing type game why oh why don't they take a look at a game where you don't control the camera.

Game designers, take note... I'm giving you free advice to take a look at these games: God of War, Devil May Cry.


Let your programmer create a camera that is based around splines, one spline for the camera position and one spline that you match against the player position. Then determine the closest point on the player spline and calculate the spline delta. Use this to calculate the position for the camera on the camera spline.

Then you let your level designers (and/or artists) lay down these splines in every single level. You can even add additional tracks to the spline that determine field of view, roll, etc.

If you are a cool designer you should now also realize that you can design where your AI opponents can go in the level as well, making sure the player will always be able to see his opponents well.

Mkay?

Edit: Ooh even better idea, you could create a field around the spline and let your designers drag around control points if there are any problems with just a spline. Of course you could also create multiple splines depending on which route the player takes, but that's sort of the point.

Wow, 4/10, 2/10 and another 4/10.

What a great crop of games we're getting nowadays.

Seriously.

I appreciate Eurogamer trying to save us from buying shite games, but I'd prefer reviews of interesting games. That would also do the job, BTW. :)

So....

Style over content then...

Just like the overly shite movie...

PSP/PS3 owners will love it..

"Then you let your level designers (and/or artists) lay down these splines in every single level. You can even add additional tracks to the spline that determine field of view, roll, etc."


Erm.. sorry to piss on your chips.. And i'm impressed you've learned a new word with the word "splines" but that genuinely is the worse fucking idea i've ever fucking heard. Please do me a favour and never make a game.. ever...

Film titles ftl! :(

"The funny thing about smelly is that he is so adamant that he's not a Nintendo fan-boy when every single EG regular knows he is about the most totally biased person who has ever posted here,"

Not sure about the most biased on here
What about that Yellowtruck?, major biased sony fanboy, who always posts crap in every 360 and wii thread.

It seems a shame that there's almost no attempt to ape the atmosphere of the book or film.

@disc

Well thanks for the advice, very generous of you oh wise one ;)


@smelly

That is kind of harsh, especially as you utterly fail to say WHY it is such a bad idea At least disc went to the trouble to detail his thoughts. And though I have issues with how he seems to assume a good result is inherent (and any mention of a splice system tracking opponents locations sounds very risky ground to me), its not a system entirely without merit in the right game situation.

Beyond Good and Evil is one example of a game that uses all sorts of camera systems, most of which are great. Occasionally it uses splines, and they work really well, but that is because a decent amopunt of time obviously went into the camera development.

I've seen spline camera systems come and go. Usually they are bobbins its true (I've worked on games where they were included but eventually dropped, thankfully in those cases), but sometimes they can work just fine.

Often as not, investment of time in a decent camera system is overlooked, so isn't that a particular system is bad. Its just that it required more time to get it working properly. Simple camera systems are safer, but not always better if the more complex systems are treated appropriately.

How about a bit of specific constructive comment about disc's suggestion, and maybe we will all learn something?

"You also acquire something called 'Kleos' as you chop and slay your way across the battlefield, which allows you to upgrade Leonidas"

Kleos = Greek concept of heroic renown/fame, fact fans. I actually learned that in school, and not from wikipedia. Although it is on wikipedia. I hate wikipedia.

smelly: I've already implemented it in two games. Both successfully. One for a 'racing' style game. One for a 3rd person action game where it was required for cinematic sequences. I also implemented a tracking 3rd person cameras that calculated 'splines' or rather a surface where the camera could place itself depending on the position of the player in stairs, it was all driven by a main standard 3rd person camera and context sensitive positioning. I implemented another solution for a 3rd person psp game where the camera would never get stuck and always show you your target and help your aim.

But I do enjoy your sentiment.

kangarootoo: Thank you, you seem to offhandedly completely dismiss the design choice because of some flaws in the implementation, maybe your implementation I don't know?

And no I did not mean you place 'enemies'/ai around a spline. You plan the ai movement around where you know the camera will look. If you know that the camera wont be able to look behind a pillar, don't let the ai stay there. Move it around the obstacles.

I do appreciate your holier than thou attitude and you seem to always use it. Cute.

just as a point about the film, they worked fucking hard for those 6-packs (you can check it out on the official 300 movie website) they weren't painted in digitally as far as I am aware.

@disc

Dude, what is your problem? I can only suspect that smelly's outburst got you all ticked off and you are applying that to me too.

I absolutely did not dismiss the design choice because of flaws in implementation. In fact I made exactly the distiction between the two. Did you even read my post? Allow me to quote myself as a reminder.

"Occasionally it uses splines, and they work really well, but that is because a decent amount of time obviously went into the camera development."

"Often as not, investment of time in a decent camera system is overlooked, so it isn't that a particular system is bad. Its just that it required more time to get it working properly."

As for my apparent holier than though attitude, I can only imagine you are referring to the first line of my post. Your initial comment was straight out patronising, so my first line was in the same vein aimed in response to that aspect of your comment. Except that I at least bothered to stick a f*cking winky on the end to show you I wasn't actually serious.

Andf I thought I was actually stepping to your defense after smelly's stroppy post, suggesting that whilst I didn't agree with you entirely (I assume that is ok?), I saw the merits in the system you described, and that perhaps if smelly was a little more constructive we might actually have an interesting discussion. Shows how much I know, I didn't even realise I was being an c*nt.

Next time I'll remember not to bother and simply leave you to spout your two games worth of wisdom whilst we all listen in silence (except smelly, who can vent at you without distraction from me).

Yes it was your first line.

smelly in immature, clueless trolling shocker. Colour me suprised.

Yeah!
I wouldn't stand for that disc.

Odd that the comic art in the game isn't art from the comic that was the base for the movie on which this game is in turn based.
So now, somwhere in the dev's offices there's a comic of the game of the movie of the comic.

@disc

Then I think perhaps a "touche" might have been more appropriate given the "here is some free advice, mkay" style of your first comment.

Now lets just both count to ten :)

:)

Chillin, not sure if I want to chill with smelly though. (The camera suggestion was in part serious but also intended for some fun as a 'this should work for everything' solution but smelly sure spoiled that, or maybe I did... never mind)

@disc

:)

@indian23

THIS IS DELICIOUS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNqiSkd1M6k

>without smelly telling us our taste sucks :)

This game sucks.. Whats to do with taste?

>that he's not a Nintendo fan-boy

I've stated billions of times that i'm a fan of their games.. yes. What's wrong with that? And why are you so stupid that i have to keep saying that? Cant you read?


>smelly in immature, clueless trolling shocker.

Immature : Yes - I was drunk and just posted that to dics as i was in the mood for a fight (or something). But the sentiment still stands that i dont think that'd work too well. I admit i wish i'd written it better.. but I can undo whats done.. so wtf.

Clueless : Nope

Trolling: Nope - I was talking about the game (and indeed movie) being shit. And that shite games like this tend to sell well on sony platforms. I can almost gaurantee that this will be in the top 10 next week. I fail to see how stating a fact is trolling?

Trolling is when you go into every single thread and say "nintendo are for kids" or "ps3's suck", etc. Like you do.

No.. I'm a nintendo GAME fanboy.

Anyone who's a fanboy of hardware is slightly retarded imho.

What's wrong with being a fan of games a company makes? Im also a square fan, is that a bad thing too? I also used to buy pretty much anything made by origin (when they were still around).. Let me guess that makes me a origin fanboy too?

Oh Noes!!! Being a fan of games is sooo bad!!!


Tell me, erm if being a fan of games is so bad? WTF are you doing posting on a games site?

"All someone has to say is "meh" in any Wii related thread and you start huffing and puffing like a fat kid who lost his candy floss."

So you're saying that if someone trolls a thread, and i respond.. then that's a bad thing?

Ho hum.. Guess even responding to your trolling in this thread is me huffing and puffing? Ah well..

I appologize to disc, it was an immature post. I still stand by what i wrote, but i should've worded it better.

and i appologize to everyone to responding to this troll and therefor taking this thread off topic - somehow a discussion about 300 being a crap game has ended up being a discussion on why liking games by a certain company is a bad thing.

*sigh*..

"THIS IS DELICIOUS"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNqiSkd1M6k

lol

I think that's the most entertainment I will get from the movie or the game...

""Just like the overly shite movie...PSP/PS3 owners will love it.." You really need to stop drinking mate.. "

Im not your "mate", i dont become mates with children.

That post had nothing to do with drink .. I stand by that post...

It'll sell really well on the PSP (and indeed on the ps3/ps2 if it was available on them too). Just like the shockingly bad (imho) movie went down well with mainstream audiences, so will this game.

If you released same said game on a machine such as the 360, the owners of that seem to be more "hardcore" and read reviews.. and thus it wont sell so well on that platform.

Whats not to get?

heh.. just used the ignore button for the first time ever.. thats better... Stop me being hooked in to arguments with trolls.

Trolling is when you go into every single thread and say "nintendo are for kids" or "ps3's suck", etc. Like you do.

Lol, I do? :D

Apology or not he did not say why a spline based camera was a bad idea for a PSP fighting game. He might think of a camera that's locked to a path and assume something but he doesn't say what. I even see an improvement to the idea by using surfaces that define the possible positions and view targets for the camera.

If you have a camera that shows the action without the player having to control it:

You'll avoid having to overload buttons for controlling the camera.
You'll avoid the problem with the camera not showing the enemies for the player.
You'll also be able to control what the player can see and can optimize the level for that. Easier to cull objects.

I don't understand what he saw was the big problem. Maybe just the way I presented it?

@smelly

Are you seriously aged 30+? That is kind of a surprise tbh, and not in a good way.

There shall be no further bickering past this line

-------------------------------------------------------

So, 300 eh? Looks a bit rubbish. Thank god there are far better games to play on psp. Speaking of which...

/off to download Pure tracks

@Disc: I've already applogized. No point going over again.

@Kanga: Yip.. Why's it a surprise? Posting immature stuff like above to disc (understandable but i was in a weird mood that night - wont go into it)? Or me liking "kids" games?

@smelly

Hehe, not the kids games thing. I'm not one of the people that consider Ninty stuff to be kids games (I actually find that attitude quite immature in itself).

The first option I would say ;)

I'm so glad that people gave their opinions of the game, and not just their opinions of each other. Because that would be really immature on all sides. Not just from adults, not just from kids.. from everyone. Grow up, and use message boards for the games, not each other.

>The first option I would say ;)

Yip i totally agree. Wont do that again. I was in a pretty bad state that night due to various reasons. And sometimes I find myself writing something innocent, then getting sucked into an argument with a troll trying to take things off topic. So in future if someone does that, i'll just hit ignore poster.



>and use message boards for the games

Well said that man.

I will try to do just that from here on in.

You guys crack me up somethimes. I've been wondering over the last few months if Eurogamer comments are worth reading at all. But of course they are, this thread is priceless.

Sorry if thats a bit condescending. (I bet it is actually)

And for the record there is nothing wrong, never was and never shall be with loving a companies/artists/writers stuff more than anything else. Yes, that means being a fanboy. Its OK. Its fine. It then becomes a simple fallacy of reasoning to use it to prove other stuff bad. Remember - Nothing can ever be bad due to something else being better.

> well said that man.

Uhm.. I'm a girl. >.

Damn, I'm late to the party.

Smelly just seems like one of those guys you know that pisses everyone off regularly, then apologises and acts nice on purpose so that he can keep at least 1 or 2 friends, before his tosser instincts come back (or he gets too drunk to act nice), and he starts being his normal dickhead self again.

Met his sort before, and I keep well away - otherwise I'd end up with a criminal record for assault.

Tosser.

Crap PSP game, too.