Schafer: Microsoft has ignored warnings over XBLA decline

By Fred Dutton Published 17 February, 2012

"Can you reverse an exodus? A redexus?"

Microsoft has failed to heeded warnings that developers are abandoning its Xbox Live Arcade platform, so says Double Fine boss Tim Schafer.

Speaking in an interview with IndustryGamers, Schafer explained that concerns raised in a hard-hitting blog post by World of Goo co-creator Ron Carmel last year do not seem to have been addressed by the company.

"I was hoping that would be a really, really eye-opening article for the console manufacturers... and I feel like it's been totally dismissed," he said.

"I really think it's something they can't dismiss and they should really pay a lot more attention to because he's calling attention to a migration, an exodus of real creative talent away from those platforms to more open platforms, and I think they should do something quick to reverse that.

"Can you reverse an exodus? Is there a term for that? A redexus?" he continued.

"Seriously, I think that that was kind of a warning call. It's not like 'it would be nice to do this' for developers - [if they don't] they're going to lose out. Things change every generation and just because you're on top and the 900 pound gorilla in one generation, as you've seen, it doesn't really matter. It doesn't mean it'll be that way forever. I think that these threats that are possibly being ignored are going to hurt those guys."

Schafer pointed at the ease of distribution and a more streamlined updating process on open platforms such as Steam and iOS as the main factors behind the trend away from XBLA and Sony's rival PlayStation Network.

"We can put something up on the App Store pretty easily. We can put stuff up on Steam really easily," he explained.

"I like the Xbox and the PS3. I like Sony and Microsoft, but those systems are closed and curated very closely and it costs a lot more money to go through that system, to patch a game.

"It makes me stressed out that if I put a game up there, I might not be able to patch it because it might cost too much money, whereas these more open platforms will let us manage our own price and our own updates. It's just a lot more appealing right now."

Schafer added that he hoped that both can turn things round and thrive, lauding how they've helped transform the market for independent games.

"There are good games on both platforms. And that's the thing, is that I really believe in both those platforms, and I want them to succeed," he insisted.

"We were used to thinking of these huge triple-A games and all of a sudden when you got your 360, one of the things that felt really next-gen about it was that you could download Geometry Wars for five dollars, and we hadn't done that before. I hadn't thought of buying that kind of game on a console before and I'm having tons of fun and I think that leads to a new creative outlet and brought us games like Limbo and Castle Crashers and all the great games that we saw on that platform.

"I want that to succeed. So when you read an article about that, warning about the migration away from the platform, that's a shame and we want that not to be the case."

Earlier this week, Double Fine announced that its new crowd-funded adventure title will launch on PC, Mac, Linux, iOS and Android, and will be DRM-free. The studio has released a spate of titles on Xbox Live Arcade and PSN in the last 18 months, most recently Kinect-only party game Happy Action Theatre.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (64) Latest comment 3 months ago

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  • golem09 #1 3 months ago

    There really is kind of a steam hype going on. And I think it's deserved. If the consoles want to miss out on great (half)indie stuff because they always strive for exclusives to ensure buyers they made the right choice with their console, they're going to lose.

  • frazzl #2 3 months ago

    Sounds like it's both XBLA and PSN that are in decline. Why the one sided title?

    Edit: The SDF can keep on negging me but as Schafer states in the article:

    "I was hoping that would be a really, really eye-opening article for the console manufacturers... and I feel like it's been totally dismissed,"

    and

    "I like the Xbox and the PS3. I like Sony and Microsoft, but those systems are closed and curated very closely and it costs a lot more money to go through that system, to patch a game. It makes me stressed out that if I put a game up there, I might not be able to patch it because it might cost too much money, whereas these more open platforms will let us manage our own price and our own updates. It's just a lot more appealing right now."

    and

    "There are good games on both platforms. And that's the thing, is that I really believe in both those platforms, and I want them to succeed,"
    Edited by frazzl at 18/02/12 @ 00:07

  • DreamT #3 3 months ago

    Isn't this just the same thing as the other day? Gets kinda old. Seems to be lots of stuff coming to XBLA with new announcements every other day, so this exodus isn't really noticeable. If anything, the indie scene has just become bigger because of ios and Steam, with more studios.

  • patchbox360 #4 3 months ago

    if there is no real profit in it for microsoft why would they care about providing indie games a platform?

  • toy_brain #5 3 months ago

    In my rather Friday-night-drunken state, this almost, almost feels like how the one-console future begins.
    All it takes is for the big 3 console giants to f**k it up enough for all to abandon ship and head for the PC and mobile space. And then for those 2 to slosh into one amorphous pile at some point down the line when smartphones get stupid powerful.

    But then Valve might screw up Steam somehow and then.... arrgghhh, no, too much thinking!

  • craziii #6 3 months ago

    you can't call it hype when it is the truth and exactly what is happening. before tim, I had no idea they needed to pay so much money to just give out updates. also how limited patches sizes are. given how easy steam and apple is, why the hell would any dev stay with ms or sony? well, if they are masochists who doesn't like money I guess they would stay.

  • toythatkills #7 3 months ago

    Didn't we have this story already?

    Man, it's like Schafer has something to publicise or something.

  • DreamT #8 3 months ago

    Maybe if I praise Steam, people will like my comment.

  • Lemming81 #9 3 months ago

    Post deleted at 00:27:39 18-02-2012

  • Zyklonbzombie #10 3 months ago

    Schafer seems to be quickly replacing Notch in regards to news articles appearing every time he utters an opinion on anything.

  • Lemming81 #11 3 months ago

    If all this time Valve have been making a 'Steam console' while we've been whining about Episode 3 not being done I'll have to concede: "Well played, Mr. Newell...well played."

  • gjgjg #12 3 months ago

    well considering the new dashboard puts xbla games on the back of the shelf i think the warning may neverbe heeded. the psn store could take advantage of the decline of xbla. they need to sproose it up a bit first tho :p

  • Lemming81 #13 3 months ago

    @frazzl Probably because Sony isn't nearly as draconian as MS with their content delivery system. They've let Valve have Steamworks on there, for a start.

  • rageman #14 3 months ago

    Is iOS really an open platform? Apple is even more restrictive than Sony or Microsoft , rejecting apps for no apparent reason. The only really open platforms are Android and PC.

  • number3son #15 3 months ago

    @toythatkills
    It's not Schafer driving it. Stories about the Double Fine adventure and Psychonauts 2 are driving big page view numbers, so the pundits are after him hard for new quotes.

  • DwarfyP #16 3 months ago

    He also claims it costs $40k to put a patch up on XBL which is total bollocks.

  • SpaceMonkey77 #17 3 months ago

    Schafer is the man of the moment, and I have to agree with him. Live is still an awesome service but its largely sold out to those with more money. Indie seem to be the least of MS worries, and it already feels like their lack of exposure, buried in menus doesn't show much MS faith in them.

    In contrast to Schafer's Kickstarter campaign, it could well spell the exodus of Live. MS must re-evaluate their stance on such games.

  • CaLeDee #18 3 months ago

    Since the most recent marketplace redesign I don't even feel like looking for shit any more because it's just a chore. I'm sure it would be OK if I could work out where the hell everything is but I'd rather just.. not.

  • HeNiCiDe1988 #19 3 months ago

    interesting I didnt realize it cost more to just patch a game on xbox live and PSN. But he is right steam unlike bullshit origin is for all developers not just EA's and its a great service or XBox live and PSN. But I would of thought MS and Sony would of done far more of an attempt at competing with steam when all they doing is supporting their own titles and big namers.

    Doesnt even take that much away from their profits either, but steam does provide a much greater access to not mainstream games and huge outlet for indie developers whom would of been laughed at by the asshole publishers.
    Edited by HeNiCiDe1988 at 18/02/12 @ 01:25

  • schoozzzmmii #20 3 months ago

    @DwarfyP
    He also claims it costs $40k to put a patch up on XBL which is total bollocks.
    Do you have any evidence for that? If so then it would be very interesting to know your source and that Tim Schafer was either incorrect or making stuff up.

    If you don't know then you shouldn't bullshit your way about this forum.

  • DreamT #21 3 months ago

    Eh, it just seems that these articles/commentary are divorced from reality. XBLA users get to look forward to Fez, Spelunky, Trials: Evo, Dust: an Elysian Tail, Retro City Rampage, Deadlight etc, etc. Excellent line-up of XBLA games this year.

    I understand that the likes of Schafer want more openness and be able to patch more easily, but that doesn't translate into 'increased sales' which is what matters more than anything.

    If sales aren't as good as they could be, that's where MS need to act. At-least they fixed the games marketplace and have all the categories better organiseed with more search options now.

    But whilst-ever games get decent sales on XBLA, games will continue to be delivered there. iOS is not some magic platform neither.

  • cloudskipa #22 3 months ago

    XBLA is a big market and has never been better for releases as far as I'm concerned. A lot of the games I'm looking forward to this year are XBLA games so I can't say I agree with this.

  • cloudskipa #23 3 months ago

    @DreamT We also have Sine Mora, Alan Wake American Nightmare, Minecraft and Class 3 to look forward to among others. How on earth is XBLA in decline with software like this??
    Edited by cloudskipa at 18/02/12 @ 01:41

  • StooMonster #24 3 months ago

    @rageman Rejecting apps for "no reason"?

    Really? Do you think they randomly choose stuff each day to reject, with no criteria.

    IIRC it's < 2% that get rejected and most of those are because of crashing and suchlike. I had an app rejected because it linked to a broken web-page (I was editing it at the time), so I just submitted again and it was approved in an hour or so later.

    As an iOS developer I can tell you it's all pretty neat and easy, althought the iTunes Connect website can be a bit clunky for certain tasks (e.g. Putting international translations for Achievements).

  • frazzl #25 3 months ago

    @Lemming81 Sony, MS and Nintendo are equally keen at protecting their respective services. I doubt you could conclusively say one system is more draconian than the other. The gaming press on the other hand love to stir shit up to get the required number of page hits. And yes I have my tin foil hat on at the moment XD.
    Edited by frazzl at 18/02/12 @ 02:12

  • uninspiredcup #26 3 months ago

    ", an exodus of real creative talent away from those platforms to more open platforms, and I think they should do something quick to reverse that"

    Why? Consoles usually ruin games.

  • uninspiredcup #27 3 months ago

    @DreamT Excellent comment.

  • Collymilad #28 3 months ago

    What's all this shit about games being impossible/hard/fiddly to find? People keep saying this.

    If you're IQ is more than 10 it's pretty damn easy to find stuff on the Games Marketplace.

  • cloudskipa #29 3 months ago

    @Collymilad exactly!

  • dangermouse76 #30 3 months ago

    Personally I am hoping that PC's become so ubiquitous and easy to use ( plus cheaper ) that they replace consoles altogether.

    Having games largely releasing in PC format would make life alot easier for devs and in the long run probably increase their ability to maximise profit by having greater interaction with the user base.

  • d0x #31 3 months ago

    About the 40k to patch. The reason for the price is cause they are paying microsoft to test the patch and make sure it works. It should be a deterent to developers and publishers so they do better testing before release. The issue is these days they know they can just ship and patch so quality control took a nosedive since last gen

  • d0x #32 3 months ago

    @dangermouse76 yea but steam is pc. Pc gamers expect issues. Console games just have to work...period. it also has to be bulletproof simple which is the opposite of pc. Valve can afford to keep steam more open because users can tweak and troubleshoot pc issues. That supposed 40k patch fee is because they have to pay ms or sony to test the patch. Ms does 2 weeks of testing. Someone has to pay the employees. Why should ms eat the bill for another companies bugs?

  • TrevHead #33 3 months ago

    Imo the main reason XBLA has so many exclusives is down to the fact they strong arm devs into doing so.

    ATM MS' train of thought is that there is a large market for indie games on the 360 so devs had better put up with our increasingly BS ways or GTFO.

    It looks like devs are finally coming to breaking point and are starting to go elsewhere, good for them

  • Paul_cz #34 3 months ago

    It is ok Tim. We welcome you on PC.

  • Markusdragon #35 3 months ago

    #Redexus.... move back of Jah people...#

  • roz123 #36 3 months ago

    Hey Schafer instead of talking and banging the PC drum why not port some of your games over

  • Ceatlan #37 3 months ago

    I do think that both MS and Sony should make it easier for developers to put updates and downloadable content for there games on the systems. Once they've done the necessary to get on the system it should be up to there how they support there product.

    However I don't think we need a system with zero barrier to entry for getting content onto the system in the first place. I don't want more stuff going onto the system everything month than is reasonable to keep up with and try, and I don't want the swamping of dross that hits other systems, like XBLIG and App Store etc. The games that make it onto the system should either be genuinely high quality or offer something unique, inventive or exciing in the areas of art style, gameplay or story.

    I mean there is so much stuff that gets uploaded to some of these systems that I can't be bothered to investigate most of it, so it really comes down to whether some catches my eye at the top of the list when I log in, or whether its had great word of mouth or appeared on App of the day or some such thing. That can't be good for anyone.

  • Timotei #38 3 months ago

    @FluffyTucker I used to like them years ago when they had that kinda dry roasted coating but now they're nekked, not so much.

  • sarcasmoidosis #39 3 months ago

    @d0x "Why should ms eat the bill for another companies bugs?"

    Because they take a hefty percentage out of each sale?

  • AnotherIdiot #40 3 months ago

    I don't want a system that allows devs to release rushed work in the knowledge they can easily patch it, that post-release patching comes at some discomfort is probably a good thing, these companies need to think more about quality and not just how can we make a good marketing campaign and bang the game out by then.

  • Lukree #41 3 months ago

    How in the hell EG cannot block those spamming robots. Here we have a simple example with great keywords and multiple same links to block. :(

  • Inertia #42 3 months ago

    Hopefully MS can extend and enhance this policy to companies that patch a lot, like say Bethseda, a £500,000 patch may wake them up to getting it right in the first place.

    XBLA has exceeded my expectations this gen. Some of my favourite titles to come, and currently, are XBLA titles.

    People complain about patching then when MS try and penalise it to prevent it they get criticism. Strange. But they could Highlight great games not just discounted ones in the main dashboard, same with the indie titles. And TBH I don't know why they don't.

    Actually a good idea would be to have a chart, in the dashboard, monthly, and yearly for XBLA and indie games. This would show at a glance the better titles and would be easy to update while informing the customer to the more popular games. It would at least give some kind of organisation to the releases worth trying.
    Edited by Inertia at 18/02/12 @ 09:58

  • FatalHybrid #43 3 months ago

    @DwarfyP Why would Tim Schafer even dare make libelous and almost slanderous comments that are untrue? He would get sued for it if anything he said was untrue, the fact he hasn't and the fact Microsoft haven't spoken up shows it's true.. You can't just say something that paints a company in a negative light if it's untrue.

  • super_monty #44 3 months ago

    There is a lot of shit on the app store, so much shite I can't be arsed wading through it.

  • Po1ymorph #45 3 months ago

    To those saying XBLA isn't in decline and is doing fine, you need to look at the bigger picture.

    Yes there are great game's coming out and still will be. But many dev's that have had successful games on XBLA and PSN are moving away from said platforms for there future projects, for the reason's Mr Schafer has stated.

  • Baihu1983 #46 3 months ago

    Decline? It had its best year ever last year.

  • skuzzbag #47 3 months ago

    A better company would have taken the indie games idea and turned it into something quite amazing. Microsoft have neither the vision or ability to do that as they are too corporate for a revolution.

    It's a well know fact that large corporations move with the grace and speed of a supertanker in a sea of glue. They are essentially too large to run with something like XBLA and be able to move quickly with the changes that are required on a monthly basis.

  • agparrot #48 3 months ago

    "Microsoft has failed to heeded"
    /pedant

    Also, part of me hopes the 900lb Gorilla reference is because of what the FortressCraft guy said yesterday.
    Edited by agparrot at 18/02/12 @ 11:59

  • Lemming81 #49 3 months ago

    @rageman Yes it really is. You fill out a form online for tax and payment purposes and that's it - provided your app doesn't do something it's not supposed to, it's on the app store inside a week. They don't get rejected for 'no apparent reason'.

  • Lemming81 #50 3 months ago

    @frazzl Well I did just give you an example of how that isn't the case! Do you remember the controversy surrounding the Portal 2 deal? Didn't look good for MS, did it?

  • Lemming81 #51 3 months ago

    @d0x "Ms does 2 weeks of testing. Someone has to pay the employees. Why should ms eat the bill for another companies bugs?"

    None of what you said there is necessary. There is no 'bill'. It's just pure profit for MS. Devs do their own testing and release on their own merits. It only reflects on the game and the developer if the game is bug-ridden. All MS should do is give it a once over to make sure it works and plays - that's it, and they should do that for free cos they are getting a bloody percentage of sales!

  • Gl3n #52 3 months ago

    A now (relatively) difficult to navigate dashboard.
    Heavy handed Microsoft curation.
    Expensive to develop for, expensive to patch/update.
    No guarantees of any marketing.
    Lack of control with pricing for your new game or DLC.
    Abstract pay systems like Microsoft points just complicating the matter.

    They need to make changes if they're going to keep developer interest, surely?

    I mean i love my XBLA games almost as much as full blown releases. I just can't see many interesting or original games coming to the platform in the future when you have Steam and mobile devices making life so easy and open.

    For all the muck slung by suspicious core gamers at iOS & Android, compared to XBLA and PSN it is far more open and cheaper to develop for.

    Steam doubly so.

  • Gastrian #53 3 months ago

    Post deleted at 17:56:43 13-04-2012

  • frazzl #54 3 months ago

    @Lemming81 I guess I was too busy playing games to notice any controversy. I guess fanboys need fodder to whine about.

  • Seoh #55 3 months ago

    @rageman True, i would have considered iOS a closed system but yet here it is described as significantly better than the PSN or XBLA and i have to agree. At least its only a couple of weeks to get something through apple rather than the months at MS and Sony.

  • Skyclad #56 3 months ago

    Even though I agree with Schafer that the systems should be more open, here's a simple thing: If you don't want to have to pay for your game, release it without bugs and glitches.

    I don't like PC games for that very reasons - you can publish whatever you want since there is no QA involved. If I come home from work I don't want to fiddle around with settings or wonder if I have to buy another graphic card - I just want to sit back, turn on my console and start playing.

    And one more thing: why are people getting negged when they mention upcoming Arcade games they are looking forward to?

  • dangermouse76 #57 3 months ago

    @d0x I agree totally; but I dont see the future needing to be that complicated if smart people put their mind's to it.

    I own an Xbox and PC, a situation I think that is not that rare. I see PC's turning into consumer devices more and more.Xbox is becoming a cable box / internet portal. And PC's are already that, the general poplulation is only going to get more tech savy over the years. A PC that " just works " is not that far off in a consumer sense.... I think.

    People / consumers in my experiance are not as dumb ( or lazy )as others like to make out, and are more adaptive than tech experts would give them credit for.
    Edited by dangermouse76 at 18/02/12 @ 16:23

  • chaos_overlord #58 3 months ago

    @cloudskipa I have to question the statement as the developer for Super Meat Boy said that within 2 months of putting their game up on PC they went way past their lifetime sales on XBLA for which it had been out for 6 months.

  • Ryze #59 3 months ago

    Interface.

    People are 'missing' games that they'd like to play, due to them being buried.

    XBLA no longer appears to be front and centre. The free TV stuff is so marvellous, that a combination of that, and my existing library and demos could become ALL that my Xbox is used for, bar the big hitters.

    I think that MS have a strategy to wind up this console in peoples' minds, before making a killer next-gen machine with the hardcore big spending audience in mind.

    They've jumped the gun.

  • geordiek #60 3 months ago

    I get the feeling that MS will drop or give limited support to xbla the moment it becomes unprofitable, a shame as there is some great games.
    I'd like to think Sony and the renamed PSN (for future, to sort of unify with their other devices? no time to double check, off to pub) might be more open to a new model, to compete in the market. Sony (to me anyway) seem more willing to lose money and support games and smaller dev's.
    I hope they both take heed to whats happening. PSN and xbla are fucking great, and one of the best things to come from this gen. I'd hate to see them go or just become an afterthought.

  • curtlikesmeat #61 3 months ago

    I'm going to go out on a limb here, but how about putting out a game..... THAT WON'T NEED PATCHING. From a time when patching wasn't available, he should be able to cast his mind back to that fairly easily.

  • Baihu1983 #62 3 months ago

    @mensar nd most indie games fail to sell because they suck mega balls.
    Little bored of indie devs thinking people should bend over for them.

  • Captain_Jono #63 3 months ago

    Cannot argue with anything Schafer said! Bang on the money. Unless Sony and Microsoft carry out some much overdue market liberalization on their platforms they are doomed to fall even further behind.

  • mocoworm #64 3 months ago

    "It makes me stressed out that if I put a game up there, I might not be able to patch it because it might cost too much money, whereas these more open platforms will let us manage our own price and our own updates. It's just a lot more appealing right now."

    THIS is what is wrong with this industry today. You shouldn't have to patch a game post release. It should NOT be released with bugs. Fucking ridiculous.

    What SHOULD make you stressed out, Tim Schafer, is releasing a game that needs patching. Idiot.