BioWare SWTOR post-mortem: it's more innovative than an FPS

By Robert Purchese Published 12 January, 2012

"Even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10/10s hardly at all."

Labelling Star Wars: The Old Republic competent but not innovative is "unfair", BioWare told Eurogamer - the MMO does more than today's FPS and action games to push its respective genre forward.

"It's been a little bit of an unfair characterisation," SWTOR game director James Ohlen remarked to Eurogamer. "Because if you look at other game genres, if you look at a Battlefield or a Call of Duty or a Gears of War or even a Half-Life - those games use the same tried and true interface and the same tried and true game mechanics of the first-person shooter genre that's been around for 20 years.

"If you look at real-time strategy games, they kept the same tried and true interface and the same tried and true mechanics that existed for 20 years. Same with adventure games, same with platformers, same with fighting games, sports games.

"I don't know why the MMORPG genre is not considered to be a genre," Ohlen shrugged. "It could be that World of Warcraft has dominated for so long that people just think of it as just a single game genre.

"But it is a genre, and we wanted to appeal to fans of that genre - we don't want to turn them away by making something that's radically different. And we wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres.

"So, I don't know, it's just the way it is, but I don't see us as not being innovative. We're actually a lot more innovative within the MMO space than comparable games in other spaces like the first-person genre, the action genre - games like that."

Ohlen said the reception to Star Wars: The Old Republic, which touched down in December, had been "a little bit better" in the US than in Europe. "Star Wars [the brand] is a little bit stronger in North America than in Europe," Ohlen informed us.

Eurogamer awarded Star Wars: The Old Republic 8/10.

"We're very happy in the review scores; we've been getting basically 90s and 80s - the lowest score we have is an 80, on average we have a 90. It's been coming in about where we expected," Ohlen said.

"We did succeed in creating a game that's very fun and addictive, and I think that's what's going to make this successful."

James Ohlen, game director, SWTOR

"The expectations on what the game was going to be for a lot of people was kind of different to what we were building. We were building essentially a classic MMO with BioWare storytelling set in the Star Wars universe. And there were a lot of people out there who wanted us to reinvent the universe and come up with a game system that had never been done before. And that was something we weren't doing, so it was going to be disappointing for those people.

"We did succeed in creating a game that's very fun and addictive, and I think that's what's going to make this successful.

"The people who are playing the game, the reception we're getting right now - the desire to resubscribe is exceptionally high, higher than we thought it would be. We thought it was going to be high, but it's very very good. So we're quite pleased."

Was BioWare expecting 10/10s?

"I don't know. The thing about a massively-multiplayer game is even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10s hardly at all," Ohlen replied, evidently not referring to Eurogamer's WOW coverage.

"The thing about an online game is it's made up of so many systems, it's a combination of so many different gameplay mechanics, unlike a single-player game that can be very, very focused in the experience.

"It's different in an MMO where there's hundreds of hours of play, and I think that plays against getting tons of reviews that are 10s. But still we have got some 95s, we have got some perfect scores, some 5/5s. We have got them, it's just that it's not all over the place like you may see with Mass Effect 2."

Ohlen was lead designer on Dragon Age, Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur's Gate, so is used to high Metacritic averages. He's hoping SWTOR's average may creep up as more reviews tumble in.

"We knew that there was going to be people who wanted us to fail. But that's just the nature of the game. If you're going to build a huge game and try to go out to a lot of people, you're going to have people who just react poorly."

The user rating of Star Wars: The Old Republic on Metacritic is lower, however - but Ohlen was quick to explain why he thinks that is.

"Oh that's easy," he retorted. "Several of the designers were watching the Metacritic page when it finally came up and what happened was there is a community out there, and we don't know who they are - it could be a bunch of different people - who aren't really playing the game but have a vested interest in hating the game. And we saw literally hundreds of 0/10s come up within the first couple of hours of Metacritic coming on. So it was people who weren't even playing the game basically putting on that they hated it.

"There's nothing we can do about that, right?" Ohlen added. "We're a big target, we're a huge game, we have a lot of hype - we've been building up the hype for years. It's just kind of expected.

"We knew that there was going to be people who wanted us to fail. But that's just the nature of the game. If you're going to build a huge game and try to go out to a lot of people, you're going to have people who just react poorly."

Star Wars: The Old Republic is apparently the fastest ever growing subscription MMO, and had 1 million registered users after one week.

"I can't say specific numbers," Ohlen explained, "but we hit a million almost immediately and we've been growing since then. We've sold out in a lot of stores. We've obviously been having to put more copies into the channel.

"I'd say we're still rocketing right now. Every day the numbers continue to grow - we have more people going into the game."

Star Wars: The Old Republic has had regular bug fixing patches since launch. The game's first proper content patch, 1.1, is on the public test realm now. We'll tell you more about future SWTOR content later today.

Dun, dun, dun, duhhhhhhh, daaaaaair, dadada daaaaaaair da...

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About Robert Purchese

Bertie is Eurogamer's Senior Staff Writer. When he's not hunting down news stories he's often found playing with his kids or gabbling about fantasy games and strange online worlds.

Read more articles from Robert by visiting the Robert Purchese archive page.

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Comments (112) Latest comment 1 month ago

Comments threads automatically close after 30 days, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • linksdad #1 1 month ago

    I didnt spot any innovation during the Beta. Very nice and all, but nothing that hasnt been done before, several times.
    If I wasnt so fed up with the 'mmo formula' I might have given it a go.

  • SonOfGoku #2 1 month ago

    innovation in my book is not to make some good design choices and then copy-paste them onto every other ip you have, i have not played SW:TOR so I cannot say, but I have not heard amazing things so far, apparently its not shit, but also not amazing, luckily mmo's are granted the gift to shake things up

  • gribb #3 1 month ago

    You can't really blame BioWare. They followed the genre leader, WoW, and applied their own stamp which makes sense to them, i.e. story.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

  • Labatyd #4 1 month ago

    @linksdad I don't remember seeing the group quest dialog system in any MMO before. I think the companion idea is unique in its implementation too.

  • Sunjammer #5 1 month ago

    Oh Bioware... Splicing together three existing things is not innovating. As far as I'm concerned, SWTOR is a super competent MMORPG, but it does one thing more than WoW and a lot worse. Are we in "GTA is a genre" territory now? Is wow now a genre?

    What a lame excuse.

  • Inmediasress #6 1 month ago

    It's wonderful how Bioware keeps badmouthing its fans/haters/review sites.
    I mean they always bad mouth reviews just because it isn't a perfect score.
    Then they hate on their fanbase basically saying your stupid if you don't get it.
    They did the same when Da2 came out and some people noticed it was a pile of dung.

    All they can talk about nowadays is product this product that, mass market and appeling (more like appalling) and what ever shit like some salesman at my door.

    I don't care how people give them b*jobs left and right all the time, in my eyes they have fallen the biggest this gen.

  • berelain #7 1 month ago

    "We're actually a lot more innovative within the MMO space than comparable games in other spaces like the first-person genre, the action genre - games like that."

    Agree with that comment or not (and I don't); the key fact is TOR isn't being as innovative as comparable games in the MMO genre.

  • DeadlyByDesign #8 1 month ago

    Sometimes I really do feel for BW. For years hey underlined, highlighted and lit up in neon signs that the were using the common MMO design and not trying to reinvent the wheel. They did say (ad nauseum:)) that they were gonna deliver a great story and put their own spin on things.

    This is EXACTLY to the letter what they have done. Then on launch (albeit before that with EGA etc) you have people complaining that its not innovative and it doesn't reinvent the wheel. I really dont get people sometimes.

    His point about FPS/RTS game mechanics is sound. Why should MMOs be expected to come up with new mechanics or something completely different while other genres have gotten away with it for years? What did people honestly expect from them?

    In all likely hood BW will never read this comment. Guys I am a 32 year old man who desperately needs to unwind at the end of the day after a fairly high pressure job. I look forward to getting home everyday and seeing what happens next to my imp agent in his quest. Will I bang Kaliyo tonight or will i not? Will I knee cap this republic supporter or will i not? OMG I have my own ship.I literally had goosebumps stepping off my ship and looking at tatooine for the first time.

    This is definetely worth a sub and box price for me.

  • bobfish09 #9 1 month ago

    MMORPG is a genre, but unfortunately the industry (marketing) has bastardised the genre's label to cover more than just what it should.

    As long as MMORPG contains everything from true MMORPGs through to lobby shooters, browser RTS and farming, it will be plagued by unfair and unrealistic demands from the players.

    Online gaming is full of innovation, but because it is all dragged under the MMORPG label, the players expect true MMORPGs to also be innovative. Sort out the genre labelling and then people wouldn't complain so much.

  • DanForinton #10 1 month ago

    we saw literally hundreds of 0/10s come up within the first couple of hours of Metacritic coming on
    I have no idea how Metacritic even justifies letting something be scored 0 out of 10. Okay, in the grand scheme of things, the haters will just score something as 1/10, but at least that's viable score (if somewhat ludicrous). Allowing a zero score is just condoning the trolling.

  • jstar #11 1 month ago

    It's definitely not shit and it would be unfair to characterise it as such. And it does innovate in some areas and do other things very well. But none of that can hide the fact that the original design is unambitious and archaic and that it has been in development for a long time. By which I mean that it feels very much like an old game with some newer features tacked on. A little bit Duke Nukem dare I say it, though that is a trifle unfair.

    The voice acting does add something when it's good but it rarely reaches that level and the individual class story lines are also a nice idea in theory if poor in practice. Having some flat voiced goon tell you to kill 6 Murg Cats is really no more fun than reading it, and actually is even more tedious. I'm also a little sick of hearing people go on about how good the story telling is in general. As a professional screenwriter I find this hilarious.

    I enjoyed the pvp though and can see that it could be expanded into something fun. But honestly if you have played any mmo (particularly wow) for any length of time there really isn't anything here for you unless you are a massive fan of Star Wars.
    Edited by 3 at 12/01/12 @ 09:31

  • The-Jack-Burton #12 1 month ago

    Stay classy, bioware.

  • blarty #13 1 month ago

    @Sunjammer - splicing multiple existing things together is not innovation? Go tell that to Apple.

  • The-Jack-Burton #14 1 month ago

    @DanForinton

    Metacritic is fundamentally flawed. Only really stupid people, like publishers, use it as a gauge.

    That being said, it is really easy to find some good, solid, competent user reviews.

  • The-Jack-Burton #15 1 month ago

    @blarty

    don't be myopic, some are better at integration than others. but they all drink from the same pool

  • Shikasama #16 1 month ago

    It is really sad to see the number of people saying it's fine to copy Warcraft because that's what MMORPGs should be like. They weren't as magnanimous with games like Rift, Age of Conan and Warhammer.

    The only thing Bioware have innovated on since KOTOR is boiling down their games and mechanics to have a very high level of polish but a very shallow level of depth. SWTOR reflects this in every way.

  • dagas #17 1 month ago

    It's a great MMO and better than most things out there even leading in certain aspects, but Bioware fans are single player fans mostly. I kind of think it could just have been a single player game with 4 player co-op, that's how I play it anyway. That would have made certain game design choices better since they didn't have to cater to the MMO crowd. Still like it though.

  • Eisenstein #18 1 month ago

    It's unfortunately not innovate, but regressive. In most parts, except for story telling and dialogue it goes back to the Pre-2007-model of doing things, having cumbersome, boring timesinks (slow speeder, long travel times, many, many respawns you have to kill when leaving your quest area...) and design decisions (no dual-specs, boring +xy % talents, too many skill, most of them marginally useful, tank/healer-shortage made worse by 50/50 group division...) that everyone hoped we abandoned years ago. Hell, things that even Bioware themselves have left behind (Elevators!).

    I love the story telling, I love most characters, but as a game it is really not that good sadly.

    @DanForinton I hope nobody takes the user-review section on Metacritic seriously with any game. It's fanboys duking it out there and a very large amount of them can be ignored completely. The game is neither 0/10 nor 10/10 as this section would suggest.
    Edited by 2 at 12/01/12 @ 09:56

  • FireMonkey #19 1 month ago

    Exactly when did Gears of War become a first person shooter?

    Also, they did all innovate. Unless he is on about just the sequels, which is a bit unfair as they all have huge numbers of fans and to change what they did drastically would be suicide.

    Half-life bought in the immersion in the story and all cut-scenes were interactive and kept you in full control of the character and camera.

    Gears of War brought in a different style of play to most TPS with the reliance on cover and duck and shoot mechanics

    The Battlefield series pushed the vehicle and team combat to new levels.

    Call of Duty brought in warfare which really demonstrated the chaos and panic in the situations with a very cinematic feel.

    It's also a lot easier to be innovate in the MMORPG genre (which is recognised as a genre by most people I know by the way) than the FPS genre as it is a much younger genre that hasn't been explored as much (there have been 1000's of FPS's since the genre started and only 100s of MMORPGs if that). I'm sure I could be even more innovative than them by working on a game in the First Person Dog Walking Simulation genre.

  • CaptainTrips #20 1 month ago

    "The people who are playing the game, the reception we're getting right now - the desire to resubscribe is exceptionally high"

    Your Official Forums disagree.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually quite like the game, but to say that the people who are playing the game are universally giving it acclaim is just bullshit.

  • blarty #21 1 month ago

    FFS, Eurogamer we get it.... you don't like SW:TOR, I mean you gave it an 8 out of 10 like you ALWAYS keep telling us, but then proclaimed two days before release to say that it was a shoe-in for abject failure and would be a poster boy for the failings of the subscription MMO genre, and might burn brightly for just long enough for you boys to laugh at it while it then stutters to oblivion at terminal velocity.

    I bet the fact that they had a million registered users pretty quickly sticks in your throat like a badly swallowed crisp, and when the numbers drop off - you'll crow from the highest point of EG towers claiming you were rightfully vindicated....

    "I don't know. The thing about a massively-multiplayer game is even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10s hardly at all," Ohlen replied, evidently not referring to Eurogamer's WOW coverage." - Jeez....get over yourselves...
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 10:12

  • Flipper79 #22 1 month ago

    The only innovations in the game are questionable design choices. I loved the immersion from the voice acted quests (although it can at times be a bit hit and miss and your actual replies are most often pulled from a handful of stock phrases) and it made the initial purchase more than worthwhile just to get a character to 50 on both factions. That's now over with unless I make another toon for distinctly less new quests. It's not a reason to sub.

    At level 50 it's WoW basic. Daily quests, PvP, flashpoints (dungeons) and operations (raids), all of which, at present are very shallow and very bugged. There are no achievements for incentive, and the PvP zone in Ilum is just a case of swapsies so people from both factions can get the daily. No need to actually PvP. If I was still playing another mmo I'd be more tempted to go back to that where I had more time already invested in what is essentially the same thing but better implemented.

    The crafting is appalling. Far too easy to max out, doesn't require mats from any non-complimentary profs and therefore has absolutely no value in either farming mats or selling crafted items.

    The space combat...well I just now had considerably more fun typing 'The space combat'

    The companion system is great if you're leveling as a healer, good if you're leveling as a tank and abysmal and a complete pain in the backside if you're used to leveling as a DPS. It also causes nothing but grief in looting etiquette when it comes to running instances, and gearing them up really doesn't provide anywhere near the satisfaction as getting gear for yourself.

    So yeah, the innovation was the voice acting on quests, one of the few finite aspects of an mmo. That's really gonna be a great way to keep people subbing.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 10:04

  • FluffyTucker #23 1 month ago

    It's a WoW clone with star wars glued on it

  • geeza2020 #24 1 month ago

    "Labelling Star Wars: The Old Republic competent but not innovative is "unfair", BioWare told Eurogamer - the MMO does more than today's FPS and action games to push its respective genre forward."

    Wow, so they're put more innovation in their game than CoD which puts NO innovation in its games every year. Good to see all those hundreds of millions that EA spent wasnt just on an MMO thats pretty much identical to the WoW's of this world.... Oh.

  • Subdominator #25 1 month ago

    Developers in defense mode. They can't be happy with how many customers they've got, they were hoping for WoW numbers and ended up with slightly less.

  • scoop #26 1 month ago

    I find it extremely unbecoming for a designer to go on the record and complain about not getting rave reviews, and receiving... oh my gosh...criticism!

    Innovation lies in the packaging as much as it lies in the content - moreso with an MMO since many people don't get to see much of the content, especially early on.

    Ohlen falls into the same trap that many designers/producers fall into when describing their own goals, by confusing 'classic' with 'generic': "We were building essentially a classic MMO with BioWare storytelling".

    Star Wars, the movie, is a classic. SWTOR is "just another MMO".

    I've enjoyed playing the game, but it's not a classic. It's a generic MMO with voice acting. If I was to come up with a specific Bioware innovation, it would be "spacebar grind".

    Anyway, like I say, very unbecoming. I had no particularly negative feelings about Bioware before, but this is kind of petty and embarrassing.

  • Ceatlan #27 1 month ago

    I think the problem is that Bioware were the ones who were touting it as more than just a standard MMORPG right from the very beginning. They were touting it as also being the KOTOR 3,4 and 5 etc for single players that all the fans had been asking for for years, in addition to being the Star Wars MMORPG to take on WOW for fans of MMORPG. If they had not done that, nobody would be bashing them now, because for fans of WOW style MMORPG's this game is fine, but for fans of the single player KOTOR games who don't like WOW style MMORPG's, this game offers nothing.

    So its not the fans or press who are at fault for wanting SWTOR to be something it isn't, it is Biowares fault for indicating that it would right from the very beginning.

  • Subdominator #28 1 month ago

    @blarty They don't have a million subscribers, they have a million buyers. After the free 30 days are over we will see how many subscribers they have. If other MMOs are any indication about 25 % will subscribe for three or more months.

  • Hamflank #29 1 month ago

    Hate all you want, this man got a point.

  • blarty #30 1 month ago

    @Subdominator thanks..... I've amended my post to registered users

  • jonfon #31 1 month ago

    ...even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10s hardly at all.
    "Me fail English? That's unpossible!"

  • ZuluHero #32 1 month ago

    @FluffyTucker Exactly, Whats not to like? :)

    Personally I think Bioware's particular brand of storytelling applied to the mmo "genre" makes it pretty innovative in itself. Never before have I felt so involved, so important and significant in an mmo before.

    In a sea of "wow clones" and cookie-cutter mmo's, that says something.

  • endgameRO #33 1 month ago

    it's funny and sad how ppl who never played the game post here. but I did play the game and I think it's amazing. Bioware is right in what they r saying. and Eurogamer's 8/10 is a low score as expected from them. a Star Wars fan will like the game, a fan of SWKotOR will enjoy it even more especially if he/she read the books as well, and a Bioware fan will get what they payed for which is Triple A Story Telling! yes it is very WOW-ish but in an slightly improved form. for the first time grouping and questing with friends feels like it should. and considering that this is Bioware's first MMO I say cz to them. Outstanding! the only complain I have is about the pvp which I think is unbalanced just like in WOW. this is something for which Bioware should have not taken inspiration from WOW. but I'm an ex-hardcore GW pvp dude so my expectations/wishes are a bit too high I guess. but if u focus on playing pve (story, heroics, flashpoints with friends) u will love the game. it's incredible and addictive. it almost feels real sometimes and for that I thank you Bioware! it's the first MMO for which I will pay to play. anything more than 3 euros is outrageous but I simply can't stay way from it.

  • Yfel #34 1 month ago

    I think the reason people would've liked to see more innovation from a big budget MMO than they expect from a big budget FPS, is that the basic mechanic of an FPS is more perfect than the basic mechanic of the WoW-style MMO, which has more room for, and NEED of, improvement - because it's not that good.

  • syra #35 1 month ago

    Did that guy honestly suggest halflife isnt an innovative game?

    Bioware redefining 'innovative' you heard it here first.

  • Zomeguy #36 1 month ago

    The thing about a massively-multiplayer game is even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10s hardly at all
    I had to laugh at that comment because he basically acknowledges that WoW is the better game.

  • Ares42 #37 1 month ago

    Here's why it's ok for other genres to not innovate as much, but not MMOs. Other genres have games you pay for once and play for a pretty limited amount of time. Yes, some people play CoD for an eternity but the majority of players don't.

    MMOs however are services that you keep paying for and keep players playing for years and years. It's like a TV subscription. If you're making a new channel that's more or less the same as some other channel but not as good, why would I subscribe to your channel ?

    If the game was just an RPG people wouldn't complain about innovation as most would judge it purely by it's content, but because it's an MMO it has to compete with other subscription-based services.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 10:48

  • jstar #38 1 month ago

    @endgameRO

    1. Paragraphs
    2. Referring to yourself as 'dude'
    3. Using text speak instead of real words. 'u', 'r' etc
    4. Writing like a 9 year old.

    Opinion discounted.

  • scoop #39 1 month ago

    @endgameRO "it almost feels real sometimes"

    Spilled coffee on lap. I'm so glad you left it at "almost" and "sometimes".

  • WinterSnowblind #40 1 month ago

    There's nothing innovating about TOR in the slightest, it's a bog standard MMO. A well presented, bog standard MMO, maybe, but that doesn't make it innovative.

    Other MMO's are breaking away from the bad mechanics and trends that games like this and WoW follow. I can only see TOR feeling pretty dated by the end of the year.

  • geeza2020 #41 1 month ago

    a Star Wars fan will like the game, a fan of SWKotOR will enjoy it even more especially if he/she read the books as well, and a Bioware fan will get what they payed for which is Triple A Story Telling!
    Seriously? LOL

  • NiolK #42 1 month ago

    Yeah, 'cause nothings going to bring higher praise faster than having a whinge about being treated unfairly.

  • scoop #43 1 month ago

    @Ares42

    I think he was being rather short sighted with that quote. A designer who thinks that shooters don't survive by evolving and innovating like hell, doesn't play games. CoD/Battlefield/et al - they struggle for dominance through realism, feedback, immersion, set pieces, stronger technology - all these things that go together to, you know, magnify the quality of experience. They are HUGELY competitive, and unlike MMOs which gestate, they're rolled out in annual shooting matches. Which is why some get really critical reviews, even though someone who's never played an FPS before, might think they're absolutely amazing. Reviews don't judge on virgin merits - games that put themselves as challengers to their peers will be judged by what new things they bring to the table. And that's where BW have flunked... they dug themselves a hole. Now they're complaining because not "everyone" likes it. "Graceful acceptance" isn't in the PR handbook I guess.

    Edit: That is to say, I absolutely agree. :p
    Edited by 3 at 12/01/12 @ 11:02

  • jonbwfc #44 1 month ago

    @Blarty - You're not the first

  • Tomnd #45 1 month ago

    There are some nice little additions:
    Sending companion to sell gray gear
    Multiple quick travel locations
    Not having to run from a graveyard everytime you die

    These are great but it doesn't change the MMO landscape. Saying that though, it has a solid foundation to build on and MMOs are defined but the updates rather than the day one content.

  • Nrallail #46 1 month ago

    Last I checked Gears was third person. ;)

  • SweetMrGibs #47 1 month ago

    There are some people on here who need to spend time either improving (levelling?) their grammar, or social skills, rather tham playing SWTOR.

    A note to some posters (those for and against SWTOR)... using sweeping generalisations to back your points up doesn't work. In fact, it undermines the things you're trying to say. When the developer states that subscriber levels are higher than expected, it's stupid to say "Not according to the official forums". So, a small snapshot of a very vocal minority is more valid than the data he has access to? Also, "Pvp is unbalanced?" Crikey, if I had a penny for every time I'd heard that gem... Have you rolled every class and levelled it to 50, equipping each with a reasonable level of pvp gear and played them enough to have a decent knowledge of their abilities? No. No, you haven't. Perhaps the reason it appears unbalanced (and that's very subjective) is because it's very difficult, perhaps impossible, to balance pvp? How do you balance something when a player base has a hugely varying degree of skill? How do you balance something when, if you die because someone pushes you into an acid pit and kills you, that you decide that his/her class is therefore overpowered (and then whinge about it on forums)? How do you balance something when many players are too conceited to think that - maybe - it's their lack of skill that causes them to die so often? I'm no pvp guru, but when I die, I try and learn from it and figure out how to use my abilities to give myself a better chance next time. I really hate lazy and arrogant comments like "Pvp is unbalanced".

    As for the game itself, it has it's pro's and con's. For me, the thing that cheeses me off the most is the graphics. Having to edit a file in order to enable AA is annoying (but I do understand why Bioware didn't make the option available at release). I also think the auction house UI is very poor. Hopefully they'll improve it over time. A nice feature might be to filter via the primary stat on items (e.g. Cunning, Aim, etc...). I also greatly miss the LFG and LFR features from WoW. But, the point is, is that - unlike the MMO 'drifters' - I tend to see playing an MMO as a long-term thing, and therefore I trust that the developers know where things need to be improved, and - over time - will deal with them.

    This is the start of a long journey for me, one which will I hope will end with me dropping a ring into a pit of lava, ridding the world of evil forever! Unless it's a level 136 ring, in which case I'll keep it. Oh, wrong game. Make that a long journey which cumilates in me dropping a level 106 earpiece into an acid pit during Huttball.

  • scoop #48 1 month ago

    One last thing:

    EG needs to have a Quote of The Week box on the front page. For the first entry, I nominate:
    "Even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10/10s hardly at all."
    Beautiful in so many ways. :)

  • anomagnus #49 1 month ago

    @Inmediasress

    What fanbase are they insulting immediasress? He makes a valid point, how can anyone be giving a score of 0/10 in the first hours of a game launching? Actually, why would anyone give the game 0/10? Have you played a zero game? Because, if you had, this is far from it.

    However, he does single out a particular, vocal minority.You're a prime example. There's barely a post comes up when you're not on here, within the first 10 posts, badmouthing Bioware. Why?

    Explain to me, so i can understand it, why you need to constantly bad mouth bioware? You represent a portion of the gamer population that simply cannot leave anything alone. At this stage, any regular forum reader knows you hate bioware. But fuck me pink, do you love to let us know how much you hate them.

    So again, why? What do you think you gain by this constant, constant, constant bile? Are you doing it for the pluses? I've said it before, i have little time for many things in the gaming world, but i dont feel the compulsive need to post on a topic i don't like. My life isnt so small i need the reassureance of stangers on an opinion i share to make myself feel good, i guess.

    Besides everything else, that this site would even refer to its own review scores of WoW, is shameful.

  • anomagnus #50 1 month ago

    @blarty

    Fine points, and i agree fully

  • Tomnd #51 1 month ago

    He is probably pissed off at the content of the review. To me it read like a 6/10.

    8/10 is very good score for an MMO, after all you fix the things that people didn't like. Look at WOW, it hardly resembles the originally released game. Also you can promise features and deliver them after the release, something you can't (or really shouldn't) do with non-mmos.

  • Whatascoop #52 1 month ago

    First person shooter requirements: First person. Involves shooting.
    MMO requirements: Tedious grinding. Ability to type disturbing sexual deviances in general chat.

  • scoop #53 1 month ago

    @anomagnus
    Besides everything else, that this site would even refer to its own review scores of WoW, is shameful.
    That's just an editorial style adopted by most commentary blogs and review sites - hardly surprising when you're mentioned by name by the mark/target/protagonist/subject :-). It's also a very British thing to do, in it's witty sarcastic sort of way.

    For the rest, I agree that there's probably a lot less hating than people think. Forums usually represent a small group of players in all MMOs, and everyone should know by now that MetaCritic is hardly a source of reliable ratings.

    But the point is, not everyone is going to like a game, it's a fact of life. The problem arises when the designer of the game refuses to accept the reality of it. I mean really, 8/10 ... that's pretty good, I'm happy when I see scores like that.

    Sure there's always haters. Much more satisfying to just not interact with them though.

  • Daeltaja #54 1 month ago

    Ok, so there is hardly innovation, but there are elements such as companions and fully voiced dialogue that are innovative WITHIN the MMO space.

    Really enjoying my time with SWTOR.

  • xRiska #55 1 month ago

    @anomagnus "Besides everything else, that this site would even refer to its own review scores of WoW, is shameful."

    Yeah, heaven forbid they refer to their own opinions on their own site. That is actually so distasteful, it's disgusting. Disgusting to the max.

    I do agree that scoring something 0/10 is ridiculous. As for the topic at hand, it’s tricky. Innovation for innovation’s sake is pointless; most of the best things in life are refined versions of something else rather than the first of its kind. WoW is a prime example of that.

    I don’t begrudge TOR for the choices it made to borrow some of the genre’s best ideas. The only reason it looks like it has taken a lot from WoW is because that game refined ideas that DAoC and Everquest championed. WoW has then had 7 going on 8 years to implement changes, and through trial and error keeping the ones that work and discarding the ones that don’t. It would have been naive for Bioware not to take advantage of that legwork.

    @Labatyd “I don't remember seeing the group quest dialog system in any MMO before. I think the companion idea is unique in its implementation too.”

    Neither of these aspects account for innovation, only refinement of/addition to a basic structure that was already in place. And the companion system has been used to similar effect in guild wars. I’m not saying that’s where Bioware got the idea as most of their non-mmo games have a companion system, but it certainly isn’t unique.

  • FortysixterUK #56 1 month ago

    I like a lot about Swtor, but two major things about the game have, for now, caused me to cancel.

    1) Lack of a dungeon finder or auto LFG. My game time is limited, I don't have time to wait around for an evening for the chance of one group. Make the dungeon finder/auto group option a priority and make it go cross server.

    2) The world, your ship, a space station, a planet, is all instanced, to get from 1 planet to another involves somewhere in the region of 5 load screens each lasting 30 seconds each. Factor in the fact that you have to run a fair distance to get to the next transit point or destination to enable you to move on, and a journey suddenly takes a considerable amount of time.
    Space should be one BIG "open world", with the ability to free fly or warp to your planet of choice. Once in Orbit of your destination, a "land now" button would resolve the arrival issue.

    I want SWTOR to make it big so I have an alternative to wow, because a BIG plus for me was how much nicer the community was in SWTOR confirmed to WOW

    As it is however, SWTOR will not be the next big contender and as with all new MMO's, it will experience a huge drop off in members after jan 20th.
    Then we'll get server merges. Then if some of the key issues aren't fixed...F2P.

  • Dizz #57 1 month ago

    It was fun while it lasted, and am not resubscribing. At 50 there's pretty much nothing to do. Not really into raiding, so I looked forward to Ilum, but Ilum is making WoW's Alterac Valley look cool and awesome in comparison.

  • Okamiwolf #58 1 month ago

    It's just WoW reskined with Star Wars. About as safe a project as you can imagine, and completely lacking in innovation. Even the uniforms and vehicle designs are ripped directly from the movies with hardly any original or creative designs despite the many thousands of years separating the game from the movies in the timeline.

  • SweetMrGibs #59 1 month ago

    @Okamiwolf

    Totally disagree. I think, artistically, Bioware have created wonderfully 'devolved' versions of the ship designs, uniforms etc... seen in the movies, rather than creating carbon copies.

    They've got to walk a fine line between using the orignal designs thus evoking the sense that the player is in the Star Wars universe, and creating designs which are distanced enough from those used in the movies to imply what they'll eventually evolve into.
    Edited by 2 at 12/01/12 @ 12:32

  • swisstony #60 1 month ago

    my ex lotro guild mates are really enjoying ToR. I'm waiting for GW2, hoping that they are doing something more flexible and dynamic with classes and questing as has been previewed.

  • SweetMrGibs #61 1 month ago

    @Dizz

    There must have been other things you were looking forward to doing once you dinged 50 besides a broken open-world pvp zone? The warzones are pretty good fun. Anyway, I think they intend to change the way in which Ilum works in a forthcoming patch (which makes it worthwhile to actually kill players). Also, the flashpoints are good fun too.

  • Darren #62 1 month ago

    Well I think MMORPGs are not really any more innovative than your average shooter personally having played a few, including World of Warcraft and (briefly) Lord of the Rings Online. They all follow the same template and from what I've seen of Star Wars: TOR it looks very much like WOW with Star Wars characters and settings replacing fantasy ones. The addition of cutscenes and whatnot doesn't change the basic gameplay.

    I played WOW to death four or five years ago and have no desire to revisit a similar game as they require me to invest so much time in them and can be disturbingly addictive. I'm thankful I had the chance to play WOW, it was utterly awesome while it lasted (which for me was about 15-18 months), but despite attempts to get back into it I never could. I guess I'd left it too long and the buzz just wore off with me.

    I would love to play a proper single player sequel to Knights of the Old Republic though.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 12:41

  • Ahskay #63 1 month ago

    I've seen plenty of scores lower then 80. They just don't get included on metacritic. Guild Wars 2 FTW

  • Darren #64 1 month ago

    "It's different in an MMO where there's hundreds of hours of play..."

    Quite right too as these things cost £30-£35 for the game then a month afterwards around £9 per month to play them.

    Skyrim has given me 230 hours of playtime so far for around £30. People like BioWare try and sell these kind of games as being good value but they're not really as they're very much pay-as-you-go. Unless you pay the subscription then you cannot play it.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 12:46

  • Arsecake_Baker #65 1 month ago

    Horrid FPS

    Over 500,000 views and on it's 9th incarnation....

  • space_ace #66 1 month ago

    He compares it to Half-Life, one of the greatest games of all time... can anyone who has played SW:TOR comment?

  • Toothball #67 1 month ago

    @DanForinton

    I don't think it really matters whether Metacritic allows 0 scores or not. If someone had decided to post a poor review out of spite they'll just pick whatever the lowest score on the chart is.

  • SweetMrGibs #68 1 month ago

    @Darren

    Whether a game represents good value for money or not is very subjective. WOW was great for me, as it meant I ended up buying maybe half-a-dozen games a year instead of one a week.

    Also, you can't equate time spent in a game to value for money. Does an above-average game which you play for a few months represent better value for money than a game you love to bits but only lasts 10 hours?
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 13:04

  • SweetMrGibs #69 1 month ago

    @zhenmeiyongq

    I'd like to LuckyForceGrip.com you.

  • abigsmurf #70 1 month ago

    "Even World of Warcraft doesn't get 10/10s hardly at all."

    And yet they are able to get high scores without threatening to withhold review copies. Do Bioware not feel slightly stupid at having to 'respond' to an 8/10 review?

  • Rack #71 1 month ago

    Is he saying ToR shows more originality than MW2 compared to Black ops or more originality than MW2 compared to Halo 2? If you're copying a 7 year old game template as opposed to a 1 year old template it should hardly come as surprising as your game comes out feeling a little less than fresh. Besides by Halo 2 the FPS genre was fairly well established, MMOs were pretty much in their infancy when WoW came out.

  • cnlfailure #72 1 month ago

    WoW + Mass Effect + Star Wars license = SWTOR

    Not saying that's a bad thing, but if you wanted a truly innovative MMO you should look at the grave of SWG you're standing next to...

  • killuminati2911 #73 1 month ago

    First the complaints on the engine not true, than the complaints on the unfair comparisons.. can this guy just STFU and work on his game???

  • Toothball #74 1 month ago

    Publishers seem to get very upset these days when they don't rate as high as they'd like to on Metacritic. Which is fine in itself, but it'd be nice if they didn't moan about it. They seem to have forgotten that they work in a predominately creative industry where opinions are as varied as you'd like. If they want to release something irrefutable they should have taken up a career in maths or science where they can also release proof of their correctness.

  • Jorendo #75 1 month ago

    He is right. The fps genre nevet evolved much with UI something the mmorpg genre gets fired down for. He isn't saying it only goes for swtor he talked about it as a genre. Also i dont get it why people think its copying when you have fetch and kill quest. That is genre specific. It is something typical for the rpg genre both single as mmorpg. It had been there long before blizzard even made the first warcraft. Otherwisr all shooters are direct clones from wolfenstein 3d cause that was the first fps game. Shooters you shoot and kill, rpgs you get send on killing 12 mobs and fetch item x.

    And for te WoW fanboys, learn the history of your game and stop comparing new mmorpgs with WoW today. I played WoW sincr day 1 till last year. WoW had everything but a easy start. Many bugs and a weekly maintaince that took the entire day and often 1.5 or 2 days even meaning you couldnt play. Oh and kets not forget that there hardly wad any end game in the first year eithet, only a handfull of raids and the battlegrounds or even points for killing people in pvp was added in december, almost a year after launch. And even today blizzard struggles with balacing and rift was already more polished at launch then wow atm, so you hush fanboys. WoW is a nice game but people shut the fuck up. If you like wow more as swtor or any other mmorpg fine, but let othets enjoy their game and if you want to compare atleast know the facts insteaf of looking at exension years later.

    Also swtor is inovating. The focus is out much more on story telling and your choives have influence. Sure its been seen before but not as massive and well news flah, there was nothing in wow that hadnt been done before yet either. Is that bad? No its not as long as the game is enjoyable and WoE was enjoyable and so is SWTOR and so is CoD for some people. If itd fun who gives a fuck that its done before. Its like movies and bioks, all the stories have been told already, yethey still sell well.

  • Jauffre #76 1 month ago

    Rather than blame the fans or make excuses for poor feedback, how about telling us how you plan to improve the game going forwards?!

    If innovation has been highlighted as a weak area of the game - now's your chance to go crazy and add all those wacky features that got canned during development ;)

  • Dizz #77 1 month ago

    @SweetMrGibs Nah not really. End-game I enjoy PvP the most, but I should've figured it would be WoW in space in the end. Nothing essentially wrong with that, but wrong game for me in any case.

    I miss SWG tbh....

  • Silvervein #78 1 month ago

    Let me get this straight.
    Does he say that swtor is more innovative than shooters, the least innovative gaming category? Congratulations for setting your difficulty bar high.


    Also, when it comes to mmo innovation, I know this. Star trek online does better storytelling, and without voiceovers, as well as innovates more in terms of game mechanics. Ryzom, way older mmo, also comes to mind.
    And lets not forget about guild wars 2. Hard to tell how that one will turn out, but the information released so far suggest something different than just carbon copy of wow with star wars skin and bioware twist on it.

    PS. One more thing. Storytelling is great in single player games, because to tell a meaningful story, your actions must have lasting consequences and the world must change. It sort of breaks the immersion to the point of turning things into a SpaceBalls kind of comedy when A. You are The Chosen One number 23987987, and B. The effects of your epic efforts last only a few moments until the stuff you blew up/built/killed/saved etc. respawns before your very eyes.
    Edited by 1 at 12/01/12 @ 14:17

  • anomagnus #79 1 month ago

    @FortysixterUK

    It would be impossible to have an 'open space' world.

    Think about it, if you're complaining about travel times now, FTL flight across half the galaxy could mean years between planets...

    The only logical outcome would be to put in warps, but that is still going to be a sharded experience. A loading screen between one zone and the next.

    WoW can get away with it, to an extent, as it is set on one continent. It just also happens to be the size of a small island. If you were asking for the same level of realism in WoW, traveling across the barrens, even by flight master would be an all day expereince.

  • Zaiz #80 1 month ago

    And the rest of the innovations were piloted by Guild Wars. Like usual. While Guild War's plot was much more hamfisted in every way, it still opened the doors to a "You are the only hero! Go on this epic quest!" And Guild Wars 2 is still doing the same darn thing, just with less money than Bioware.

    So no, this game doesn't push the genre forward, unless we count the starfighter minigame.

  • SweetMrGibs #81 1 month ago

    @Silvervein

    "Does he say that swtor is more innovative than shooters, the least innovative gaming category? Congratulations for setting your difficulty bar high."

    I don't think the developers produced SWTOR as an intellectual exercise/challenge.

    Also, you're right, it may break immersion somewhat if you see something that you just blew up respawn. But if you can get past that conceit, it shouldn't really impact very much on your enjoyment of the story. It's not like you spend much time in any one place.

  • Silvervein #82 1 month ago

    @SweetMrGibs

    I'm sure they didn't make it as an exercise, however the dev interviewed compared swtor to shooters, in terms of innovation. That's a very poor comparison.

    As the the immersion, my gripe with it in swtor is that EA/bioware tried to woo the people who liked kotor (such as myself) with promises of story driven mmo, even going as far as saying that swtor is kotor 3,4 and so on. While, due to the very nature of mmo's, such effort falls flat on its face.

  • Po1ymorph #83 1 month ago

    Half Life didn't innovate?

    Been watching a few "lets Play" vids on YouTube, and it seems very much the same as Knights Of The Old Republic which was released in 2003.

    I would like to play it but I'm not convinced I would be happy paying £10 a month for the privilege.

  • haruvister #84 1 month ago

    I've never played an MMO this polished, immersive, intricately written and skilfully performed, so I guess it's innovative for me.

  • Naster #85 1 month ago

    @DanForinton

    So your idea is to...use a 9-number rating scale but...disguise it as a 10-number rating scale? Maybe then giving a 10 should also be disallowed because that's just inviting fanboys to post unviable scores?

    Edit:
    @Rack
    Evidently I suck at math...next time I'll count using my fingers.
    Edited by 1 at 13/01/12 @ 10:40

  • Laythe_AD #86 1 month ago

    Having poured an awful lot of time into TOR now, I can say that the sheer familiarity of it all is becoming a bit crushing. Don't get me wrong, WoW dominates this genre and thus most releases are greatly similar in many ways, but I have not played a major release that felt so utterly as if it was simply aping it. It applies to the UI especially, though while built to be identical to WoW's, it lacks many of that latter games helpful intricacies.

    And so with the gameplay itself being identical, one comes to the story telling. The voice acting is welcome, and really helps to immerse, but many locations just don't feel like locations at all, and the dialogue is inane, the story-lines for each class are frankly piss poor. Bioware sold this as being a number of single player RPG's wrapped into an mmo. This was a lie, because the experiences offered are not of single player quality. It is, however, more enjoyable to quest in than WoW.

  • ronuds #87 1 month ago

    Wasn't EG making the point that MMOs are starting to lose ground as they are? In other words, why would you make something samey when the thing you're copying is starting to become less appealing?

  • Zaiz #88 1 month ago

    @SweetMrGibs You spelled "than" wrong. Tee hee.

  • Ghostington #89 1 month ago

    The difference

    SquareEnix makes a crappy MMO, FFXIV. They don't think they've done anything wrong so they don't have to pay anyone off, and they get a 4/10 score. Says, "Oh we must of screwed up, you can play the game for free till we fix this."

    Bioware makes a crappy MMO, knows they screwed up and bribes reviewers with an exclusive pre-release of ME3 and hundreds of dollars worth of peripherals to get at least an 8/10. When people complain that the game is terrible, they say, "BUT LOOK AT OUR REVIEWS. IT'S PERFECT."

    Stay classy Bioware.

  • anomagnus #90 1 month ago

    @Ghostington

    You should go to the cops with all the proof you have with the bribes!

  • endgameRO #91 1 month ago

    @jstar hey DUDE SUP? yes I am 9 years old! do U have a problem with my age? and U know U don't have to be sad just because U R incapable of using text.

  • endgameRO #92 1 month ago

    @scoop I fail to see the humor in that.

  • endgameRO #93 1 month ago

    @geeza2020 seriously! LOL

  • endgameRO #94 1 month ago

    @SweetMrGibs and yet empire wins 57% to 43%. I wonder why.

  • endgameRO #95 1 month ago

    @Daeltaja and everyone hates u for that. and hates bioware for pushing forward the genre even if it's just a bit. u know haters will always hate.

  • IvorB #96 1 month ago

    Says game is innovative, forgets to say how. Asked about user feedback, says they're all haters.

  • WJF #97 1 month ago

    Can someone explain what these 'new' companions have over Guild Wars's companions?

    Because they seem to both serve the same purpose to me (fill in roles so that healers or weaker physical classes can survive exploring without a group).

  • Rack #98 1 month ago

    @Naster Err, how many numbers do you think there are between 1 and 10? It's not a trick question.

  • butler` #99 1 month ago

    "evidently not referring to Eurogamer's WOW coverage."

    erm, someone might have pointed this out, but KG gave WoW an 8 or 9 didn't he? probably one of the biggest review score regrets of his career, or I'd hope so

  • DurzoBlint #100 1 month ago

    BioWare uses the word "innovate" a lot, but doesn't appear to know what it actually means. A bit tragic for a studio with so many dedicated writing staff.
    Edited by 2 at 13/01/12 @ 00:45

  • varkdm #101 1 month ago

    I dont get about 85% of the comments in this thread.. did I miss something in this article? He says they are really happy with the review scores.. so why are so many people accusing them of whining about review scores?

    ""We're very happy in the review scores; we've been getting basically 90s and 80s - the lowest score we have is an 80, on average we have a 90. It's been coming in about where we expected," Ohlen said. "

    There has been a shitload of negative comment thrown at them about innovation, so he's perfectly within his rights to defend what they view as being innovative. In fact, if they didnt respond to this, most peole would then accuse them of being arrogant and ignoring peoples comments.

    Ive spent about a 100 hours in SWTOR since launch, just reached level 50 tonight actually. Still have 1 full planet of content plus a load of bonus missions before I have to draw back onto flashpoints, pvp etc. Then I'll probably level an alt, since the play styles are different and the storylines to play through are as well. I've made a goody two shoes blaster rifle wielding trooper tank and now im going to make a sadistic jedi consular healer. I'm looking forward to playing through the quests and storylines as a total bastard instead of an all round hero type. It does actually make a difference. So I can expect that to be 200 hours on levelling two repubic characters. Then I could level a jedi knight and a smuggler... 400 hours. Before I do that though, i will switch to Sith and level a bounty hunter - completely new quests and stories, another 100 hours. THen a sith warrior .. another 100 hours. This game is anything but poor value for money. You have up to 800 hours of character levelling, if you want to, even if you only level 2.. tahts 200 hours of content. You could do that and cancel your subs if you wanted, you've still got a bargain in entertainment hours terms.

    Also, so far, i have had aproximately zero quests that said "go here and kill 10 of that". The quests have proper objectives and you have the CHOICE of completing bonus objectives that usually (but not always) revolve around killing extra things. You get extra xp for completing it, as well as money and xp for the kills, but you dont have to do it, you can complete the quest and move on without doing it, if that kind of thing bores you.

    On the official forums there is a lot of hate coming from the old dedicated SWG community, who seemed to want and expect SWTOR just to be SWG with new graphics and storylines. I played SWG when it launch, it was nice for a while, buit horribly horribly broken and i lost interest after that. As did most people who played it which is why the license got transferred to Bioware and SWG shut down.

    Its also clear that if in the first few hours lots of metacritic reviews went up with 0/10.. that those reviews are a load of cack and should be ignored. If it had been hundreds or thousands of 4, 5 or 6's .. over a period of several weeks after the launch.. then they should address it. But it wasnt, it was a bunch of pricks with a vendetta.

    SWTOR isn't wildly innovative. It does copy the staples of the genre. It does add to it. In levelling my character i didnt give a crap about the xp gain i was getting. I was happy to do low level quests etc because i was enjoying the process. With other MMORPG's ive played, questing was a grind to get to max level. In this.. it was just playing the game. And i actually knew what was going on, because the spoken quests were immersive and made you pay attention to what you were doing and why. It may not be the most innovative thing ever, but its a MASSIVE improvelemt on the walls of text, go kill 10 of these quest spam in other mmorpg games.

  • norsende #102 1 month ago

    At level 30, I have to disagree with the part "addictive". I honestly struggle to gather enough interest to even boot up the game, knowing how tedious missions and sucky graphics and empty worlds I have to look at. It's a shame, I really wanted to enjoy this game, and still do. It's just immensely boring to me at the moment. I thought I'd powerlevel to 50 in a few weeks, but I couldn't even play more than 6 hours the first day...

  • jimr9999us #103 1 month ago

    They glued a car to a boat and sadly mine sunk today when my subscription ended.

    I wish the game well, I wish I liked the game more.

  • red_cruiser #104 1 month ago

    When SWTOR's main features were first starting to be discussed, I was laughing to myself and my friends that they would have to include "Dark Heal" as a power. Lo and behold, I was right... regrettably so.

    That's why these furtive arguments from BioWare ring so hollow. They actually didn't just ignore their own world setting, they outright abused it, in order to make it fall in perfect step with the traditional WoW clone MMORPG. Ultimately, the game doesn't even really end up feeling that much like Star Wars.

    Working within the confines of their subject matter, they could have opened up a lot of new possibilities. Instead, they just ignored anything that prevented them from turning Warhammer Online into a space game with lightsabers.

    I also find the assertion that the poor metacritic scores were the work of industry saboteurs to be silly. So, you had a team of people looking at the metacrtic reviews right when it came up...? I wonder for what reason exactly, hmm? Just curiousity, I'm sure. So all the negative reviews are Blizzard employees and all the positive reviews are earnest, genuine gamers. Do you really think we are that dumb?

  • red_cruiser #105 1 month ago

    @varkdm
    I actually prefer the wall of text and then something interesting to do like taking a gyrocopter on a bombing run or remote controlling a goblin golem to beat up on a harpy, as opposed to a "fancy" cut scene and a meaningless chat response followed up by an army of tedious kill quests. If it doesn't involve killing something, clicking on something or using an item in your inventory, it's not happening in SWTOR.

    If having a wall of text means I don't have to go back to a base after every two quests, then I'll take the wall of text any day of the week.

  • red_cruiser #106 1 month ago

    @Silvervein That's really the single worse thing about SWTOR. This game is going to not only be the big Star Wars MMORPG for years to come, but we don't even have the hope of a good single player Star Wars RPG coming out either. It's like SWTOR killed two birds with one stone and I mean that in a horrible, literal kind of way.

  • endgameRO #107 1 month ago

    @varkdm aaand again ppl hate u because u like the game. we live in sad times when games like mw3 r getting so much love and games like swtor r getting so much hate. gg eurogamer community. u r awsm!

  • Jounar #108 1 month ago

    At the end of the day Bioware made a very basic, rather unpolished WoW clone and wonders why players aren't proclaiming it as the second coming!

    Who didn't see that happening lol.


    Also James Ohlen needs to look up what "innovative" means :)

  • varkdm #109 1 month ago

    @red_cruiser
    Sure those quests are a niec change of pace of WoW, but they are about 1 in 15 quests, they all boil down to the same thing - kil 15 of that, 20 of that. And there is usualy little justification or reason to it. You prefer that method.. good, stick with WoW. Its a perfectly decent game.

    I prefer actually feeing like there is a reason why my character is doing something. I'm not just stat padding and racing to a level so i can change content. How my character is at level 50.. ive got 7.5k light side points and 750 dark side.. that means I chose on 10-15 occasions to take the decision that I KNEW would be worse off for my characters stats (clearly light side focused) but did it anyway because its what I felt my character would do. That goody two shoes trooper of mine, the celebrated hero of the republic, has exectued a corrupt fat cat in cold blood (because he was going to get away with it), avoided due process and taken decisions away from the senate because I knew they would make the "wrong" decision (in my eyes), and even elected to save a character who I had worked with in the past, because she was cool, competent and had a crush on my character, despite that decision causing me to lose support from my companions, gain a shit load of dark side points and get a dressing down from my CO. I chose to save her instead of hundreds of others. Because its what I felt my character would do.

    SWTOR has put the RPG into MMORPG. None of the other main rivals do, they are closer in nature to hack & slashes, chasing stats, loot and just killing for killings sake. I never fetl any connection with my characters in WoW, any sense of identity. They were just mindles automatons that did exactly what they were told by everyone with a gold exclamation mark hovering above their head.

    Thats the real innovation in this game, that you are actually paying a character, not an avatar.
    Edited by 1 at 13/01/12 @ 18:14

  • kalstrams #110 1 month ago

    I see no innovation in PvE karma system & extended dialogues.

  • CrusaderRO #111 1 month ago

    And we wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres.
    This is the most stupid lie i've ever read. What lessons did you learn from other MMOs?! Or did you look at those that are barely played anymore or those that have been with us since the '90s ?! Why is it so hard to look at the few that are RECENT and WELL DEVELOPED??? Yes, i'm talking about WoW especially.

    There is no ability delay, the UI didn't suck that much as SWTOR's, pets don't randomly disappear from hunters and leave you to get slaughtered, you don't get 2 seconds delay on pressing anything whenever you are in a group or fighting another player, mount speeds don't rise by 10% while prices go up 10fold, hunter pets don't randomly go attacking mobs that aren't even in combat with you just because you have them selected, you also can't go looting level 70+ areas of chests when you are level 20, you don't get attacked by mobs on a higher ground(a different floor) that don't even see you in the first place just because you AOEed some mobs below them, you don't and didn't have EMOTES that interfere with combat, you don't have to wait 5+ seconds after alt-tabbing just to load your screen again(and i don't think there is ANY GAME that does that since 2005 or even earlier), .... should i go on?

    Stop lying already with your "refinement" and "learned lessons". Why the hell did you spend millions of $ on voice overs and animations when you force people into playing light or dark with no options whatsoever for neutrals and other combinations?? I won't even talk about the LACK of graphical customization options and the false advertising(yeaaaa, we will get high res textures on launch... bullshit).

    Stop the lies already. You've rushed releasing a game that should've stayed in beta for at least another 1-2 years. And the biggest question is, why didn't you give a shit about what people were saying during the beta? There were SO MANY known bugs and exploits and stuff that you had over ONE YEAR to fix. Yet you say you care about your customers' opinion... Again bullshit.

    All you desired was to get your money back with launching this PAYED BETA TEST. I just can't believe you "learned from other MMOs" when in YEARS of beta you failed to fix so many problems that THE BETA TESTERS WERE REPORTING EACH DAY. You actually didn't give a shit.

    And now you believe what? get some patches out in the first month and maybe you can milk some more money from the kids? Nice policy. Launch a crap game and then milk the mentally challenged customers after the free month.

    That's all it was about. You realized you've payed too much for the actors for voice-overs and animations (that aren't even different for each dialogue) thus you had to rush a release whose important problems you couldn't fix in 2+ years of beta (simply because you didn't give a shit about what the beta testers were finding, or you had too few of them).

    My advice, have the decency and stop lying. You've learned NOTHING from other MMOs. At least not from those THAT MATTER IN 2011+.

    Stick to single player games Bioware. You suck hard at caring or learning from others. And i don't like it but it's true - Blizzard (WoW) does know what to get and how to implement new features from other games. They are even testing some storyline questing scenarios for the next expansion. It seems they could copy stuff from SWTOR after 1 month, but you failed so horribly at doing the same after 7 years of WoW.

    I truly hate WoW, but unfortunately SWTOR is much worse(after having SO MUCH TIME to fix/add/learn things), and the stupid lies and false advertising don't help at all. Can't wait for my free month to expire...

  • Mainio #112 1 month ago

    Good MMO but not very innovative. Plus it starts to repeat itself pretty fast.
    Im already little tired adventuring with my lvl 33 Bounty Hunter. Typical TOR day ill get quest from nicely voice acted NPC and choose one of three replies from dialogue... and then end up flying-running to another cave open space area, clearing bonus NPC:s which can withstand lots of punishment even if ill out level em with 3-4 levels and noticing how my superior one min CD ability "Death from above" always leaves em some health left and i need to finish em with rocket-blasterfire. Eventually ill reach end where higher level NPC or quest item awaits me.

    Ill also get to enjoy extensive loading times, which ive been told is caused by server,
    For example ill admire 1 min 45 sec loading screen every time exiting Warzone even if ill stay at same zone from where i joined. Its just too long time when joining area was standing in middle of deserted Tatooine or Alderaan for example.

    And journey to your own spaceship is poor design choice. Would be nice to spend some time there between questing, and would serve as excellent rested state area (hint hint), but its just too time consuming and boring walking-elevator-loading screen trip to make it for kicks.

    But im patient, this MMO is still young and promising, had many good moments
    on this one. Obvious flaws and strange design choices just popping out after gaining enough levels.

    May the force be with fellow TOR-spacenuts here in Eurogamer ;)