Console port of The Witness "not worth it"

By Fred Dutton Published 27 September, 2011

Plus, Braid developer critiques Portal 2.

Porting forthcoming indie puzzler The Witness from PC to consoles isn't worth the effort at present, according to Braid creator Jonathan Blow.

Speaking in an interview with Edge, Blow explained that his new game is pacing ahead of current console tech.

"We like 360 and PS3, but their specifications are over five years old now, and that's a lot in computer years," he said.

"The kind of tricks we'd have to perform to get this game working on those platforms are such a lot of work that to port it over at this point is just not worth it for us."

He didn't specify whether he was referring to the viability of a potential full disc release or a PSN/Xbox Live Arcade download.

Blow added that he believes the game can make back its budget through Steam and iOS alone.

"The budget of this game we would hope to make back through Steam and iOS, plus I would like to make a profit. But breaking even is most important as it allows me to keep making games, and I can do that without consoles. Maybe this time next year I'll be singing a different tune because I found out I was wrong, but I don't think so.

"By the time this game comes out in a year or more, we might be on an iPad 4. We do have to compress the game for that platform, but we don't have to do the certification stuff we would have to on consoles, so we can live with doing just one of those giant tasks. And I like this as an iPad game. It's a natural thing. But we'll see how that plays out."

Elsewhere in the lengthy Q&A, Blow also took the time to offer his opinion on Valve's recent take on the arty puzzler sub-genre, Portal 2.

"Part of the way Portal 2 ended up seemed to be due to what happens when you have a group of game designers that make games like Half-Life 2, which are quite heavily linear, and then put them on this other game. They're naturally thinking of things in terms of this linearity.

"However, to me, a game about portals should be inherently non-linear. If you don't make a non-portal surface at all, it means I can go from any place in the world to any other place. What would it mean to design a game around that? It might be a much harder design problem, but to me that's the excitement.

"I couldn't help feeling, playing the game, that they're fighting the portals all the time. At least a third of the game had mostly non-portal stuff in, and I'm thinking why do I have portals now? How is this different from having a zipline?"

He went on to distinguish his new game from Valve's, insisting The Witness is "more of an art game" whereas Portal is an "entertainment product".

"Valve very deliberately focus tests its games, and see how people react to situations, and refine the game to that. When you start to do that to a puzzle game you start to get rid of the puzzles," he suggested.

"Because Portal has a linear structure, you need to end up with things that people are expected to solve. That's different to an anything-can-happen environment.

"I'm trying to provide opportunities for experience, whereas Valve is looking for the optimal experience for you to have. And that's fine - very valid and legitimate. But if every game becomes that, then we're missing something. When you give people freedom, you're giving them the freedom to have a bad experience as well as a good one. But it's the kind of experience that's not possible without freedom."

The Witness is still without a firm release date. Blow recently said it had a 50/50 chance of being out before the end of 2012.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (65) Latest comment 8 months ago

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  • marmaduke #1 8 months ago

    It's amazing that Jonathan Blow's head could even fit through the door in order to get to the interview.

  • Collymilad #2 8 months ago

    Ill get negged for this but I don't care.

    Braid was an overrated POS and Portal 2 pisses all over it.

  • spekkeh #3 8 months ago

    I like what he did with braid, but he's getting pretty full of it pretty fast. Puzzles are entertainment products too and always focus tested.

  • Shinetop #4 8 months ago

    He raises some valid points, but you could almost sense how he was aching to say "of course art is better in every way than entertainment." while stroking his chin thoughtfully.

  • midnight_walker #5 8 months ago

    So let me get this straight. Console tech is now so old that it will require so much effort and trickery to get your game running on it that it's just too much hassle.

    And your game is out soon for Steam and... iOS?

    O...kay.

  • Apaar #6 8 months ago

    I never cared about Braid. I thought it was a serious case of The Emperor's New Clothes. It felt pretentious and over-hyped.

  • UncleLou #7 8 months ago

    All day long, you read on forums and comments how game x is crap and game y is shit, but as soon as someone from the industry is not full of praise for something, and actually has something quite interesting to say about the subject to boot, a lynch mob forms. Weird.

  • Vyggo #8 8 months ago

    Wait, the consoles are too old but he is releasing it on iOS? In what alternate dimension is an iPad more powerful than an xbox360 or ps3?

  • Shinetop #9 8 months ago

    All day long, you read on forums and comments how game x is crap and game y is shit, but as soon as someone from the industry is not full of praise for something, and actually has something quite interesting to say about the subject to boot, a lynch mob forms. Weird

    How is this a lynch mob? Perhaps you are projecting a tad?

  • Cryotek #10 8 months ago

    "All day long, you read on forums and comments how game x is crap and game y is shit, but as soon as someone from the industry is not full of praise for something, and actually has something quite interesting to say about the subject to boot, a lynch mob forms"

    I think people more have a problem with his pompous, full of himself attitude than voicing an opinion.

  • Collymilad #11 8 months ago

    @UncleLou

    I don't think people have a problem with what he said so much as the way he said it.

  • UncleLou #12 8 months ago

    I think people more have a problem with his pompous, full of himself attitude than voicing an opinion.

    And I think many people often confuse non-conformist or reasonably complex (as opposed to "shit/great";) opinions with pompousness.

  • Grayvern #13 8 months ago

    From what I've heard the media makes him out as different than he is in person I mean I've seen photos of the guy in kingdom of loathing T's.

    But he does come out with some corkers I mean he's still making a game for which solutions are finite rather than a simulation game like Civ or Sim City.

    Besides Portal isn't really what he says, portal is more a balance between a more traditional method of storytelling and gameplay, some of the most renowned literary products and novels follow a 3 act structure for instance.

    Portal could easily conform to Blow's ideas if it simply had optional rooms with greater challenge that weren't necessary inline with the game. The witness is merely a puzzle game with optional harder puzzles built in rather than downloadable challenge maps.

    I guess my real problem is that 'entertainment' often trancends art not the other way around, The Wire is probably far more meaningful than any bullshit beat poetry or rap that's been produced on it's subject matter. Or, art is fundamentally constrained by over reliance on connotation.
    Edited by Grayvern at 27/09/11 @ 23:23

  • Collymilad #14 8 months ago

    @UncleLou

    Wow. Well yeah you are right, we all know what a bunch of dumb fucks the EG readership is. Me was not smart enuf to no what man say.

    :|

  • MattEdWithCheese #15 8 months ago

    Braid was incredibly linear, you just chose what order to do the puzzles in. Oh an the ending was so up itself. Still don't understand why it cost so much money to make...

  • Der_tolle_Emil #16 8 months ago

    Portal 2 was fantastic but I think you really need to distinguish between the single player and the co-op campaign. I really like puzzle games and of course all the excitement comes from getting your head around the problem in front of you. The thing is: Portal 2 is not really that much of a puzzle game. The single player campaign is driven by the story, not the gameplay but for me it was just the right balance. I enjoyed it a lot - and I also agree that Portal should focus around portals but this is where the co-op campaign comes in. No story, just a giant room with, two robots with a portal gun, a sign pointing to the exit and a vague idea of how to get there. (Speaking of which: Any news on the portal co-op dlc? or is it already out and I missed it?)

    The thing that works so well about the co-op mode is that you get feedback from your partner. A game will never be able to give you the feedback a human is able to. The biggest problem with puzzle games is that they get incredibly frustrating if you don't know if don't know if you a) have the wrong solution or b) are just too crappy to pull it off. Portal gives you a lot of freedom when it comes to movement which also means that it is more difficult to control than other games, where you always move at the same speed, always jump the same height etc. You need to set (strict) limits, clear rules, otherwise the game will turn out to be too confusing.

    Of course I would really enjoy it if I could use the portal gun wherever I could. It reminds me a bit of the good old days playing old FPS games with no-clip on, just to see where you come out if you run through that wall etc. or are finally able to climb onto the top of a room which is usually not possible.

  • udat #17 8 months ago

    He doesn't criticise Portal 2 at all, he just says it's different from where he would go with the idea of portals. Fair enough. I can remember myself thinking that there was often too great a restriction on portal-surfaces in Portal 2. You knew whenever you saw an angled section that you were doing a momentum jump from there any moment. It was a superb game and I loved it, but only one level gave me the "kick in the discovery" that Braid managed a good half-dozen times at least. Saying that, I doubt I coud choose a favourite or "bestest game" between the two. I liked both.

    Also, an iPad 2 has a shedload of computing power and a low-ish res screen to cope with, and he's developing for the Ipad 4 anyway... the development environment is apparently stable enough for him to do that.

  • AnsemsApprentice #18 8 months ago

    Loved Braid, loved Portal 2. The Witness looks stunningly beautiful, and I only hope I'll get to play it at some point.

    On paper, it might look like he's being a bit big-headed, but it's hard to judge someone from just text. I can see his point, but don't totally agree with it; that's my choice.

    "I'm trying to provide opportunities for experience, whereas Valve is looking for the optimal experience for you to have. And that's fine - very valid and legitimate. But if every game becomes that, then we're missing something. When you give people freedom, you're giving them the freedom to have a bad experience as well as a good one. But it's the kind of experience that's not possible without freedom."

    I see what he means here, but I never felt that Portal was meant to be about freedom. You're a guinea pig in a test facility, after all, and that's exactly what I felt like. I would have hated it if I could suddenly place portals anywhere in Portal 2. I probably would have finished the game in 30 minutes, but I still see his point.

    Interesting article. It's good when people aren't afraid to criticize the big names, I think.
    Edited by AnsemsApprentice at 27/09/11 @ 20:25

  • Grayvern #19 8 months ago

    I have a problem with the classification of Art vs Entertainment because as AnsemsApprentice said portal could be considered a meaningful statement on human existence in the modern world, but then so could Warhammer 40,000 with it's bleak hive cities and drone like workers.

    I don't really like what blow opines because he never overtly problematises his own statements.

  • Sharzam #20 8 months ago

    I really like his thoughts. Ok some of you see it as arogance and 'x game is better than y game' but what he is saying is that it does not have to be about what is better or worse but rather the experience itself.

    He has a valid point regarding focus tests in games also, Valve make great games and focus test to ensure all will enjoy them but what if you are not making something for people to have fun but rather making something for the experience ? This is a sign that the media of gaming itself is moving on, we need our blockbusters, niche, arty, etc in order to grow and develop.

    Would movies be creative with only 1 genre such as the early comedy films of course not, they grow. For example would a 'game' such as The Path even exist if it was focus tested to ensure enjoyment and mass market profit. This is where the PC shines so it also makes sense for him to ignore consoles for the time being.

  • ZizouFC #21 8 months ago

    Yeah those screen shots blow Gears of War 3's visuals out the water!

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #22 8 months ago

    Just when indie gaming gives the industry the shot in the arm it needs, half of them turn out to be egotistical twats. I'm looking forward to this and enjoyed Braid, but seriously that's one hell of a load of shit he's talking.

    It's not just the iOS comment but the fact that the game doesn't look technically better than anything that hasn't already been released on 360/PS3.

  • UncleLou #23 8 months ago

    @UncleLou

    Wow. Well yeah you are right, we all know what a bunch of dumb fucks the EG readership is. Me was not smart enuf to no what man say.

    :|

    That wasn't my point, but nevermind. Anyway, I can only recommend reading the original interview, including the questions he was asked, rather than just the EG summary. It makes it all sound quite a bit different.

  • Sonic_D #24 8 months ago

    Portal > Braid > Portal 2

  • marmaduke #25 8 months ago

    @UncleLou

    I think most people- me certainly- are taking issue with the way he's saying things. I just hope that whoever's reviewing the game for Eurogamer remembers this quote- "Now, say somebody writes a novel that's not a thriller, like say The Grapes of Wrath... the story of The Witness is like that book, but in a game."

    I haven't played the game, but I've read the book, and I strongly doubt that a game about solving abstract puzzles in a world that seems to have been sponsored by Ikea is going to be anything like that book.

  • Grayvern #26 8 months ago

    There's a difference between focus testing and play testing, Most Writers and Painters don't do their work in a vacuum they exist within communities and have feedback that affects and changes their work.

    So a bigger version of this idea isn't intrinsically bad.

    Portal still asks of the player (stick someone who's never played a game in front of portal), but still wants to be experienced there's nothing wrong with egalitarian game design.

    Play testing arguably focuses on making a better game for more people whereas focus testing exists to sell more games or keep people playing them.

    Most people are capable of reading/ playing/ understanding what is regarded as complex it is merely an elitist air surrounding many cultural productions that put people off.
    Edited by Grayvern at 27/09/11 @ 20:46

  • Zombie-Hamster #27 8 months ago

    Have to say I'm a little surprised at the Braid hatred! I thought it was an absolutely brilliant game. Ok, so perhaps he came across as a little cocky there in the interview, and I can't say I personally agree with him on the Portal 2 front (which I loved, and overall would say I preferred to Braid), but the guy is entitled to an opinion.

    That said, I did get a bit of a "games should be an artform" air of superiority vibe there. There's room for arty games and ones which are just plain old fun people! His last statement is brilliant, saying Valve's games are valid and legitimate. I'm sure Gabe Newell feels better for hearing that... Yes they are mate, that's why they have some of the best selling and best scoring games of all time!

  • Collymilad #28 8 months ago

    @UncleLou

    Sorry I just took what you said as "People are incapable of comprehending written English properly"

    If I misunderstood I do apologise. Although I have to say I know exactly what the guy is saying, and I still think he comes across as Pompous. Obviously different people have different "bars" for what they consider pompous.
    Edited by Collymilad at 27/09/11 @ 20:59

  • mattrix33 #29 8 months ago

    I'm not bothered by how many negs I get....Braid is one of the most overrated games I have ever bought.

    I hope this game falls flat on it's ass,even if it gets rave reviews like Braid did I won't get fooled again by this Dev

  • AnsemsApprentice #30 8 months ago

    I didn't like Outland or Red Dead Redemption. Who cares? I don't hope that their next games fail simply because I didn't like them; that's silly.

  • Ninja_Tino #31 8 months ago

    Why do people continue to define Portal 2 as arty? It's not at all arty in any sense, and all the better for it. It's an ingenious, brilliant and hilarious puzzle/adventure game, not at all similar to Blow's pretentious twaddle. (In Blow's defense, though, Braid was also an ingenious, brilliant but anything but hilarious puzzle game.)

  • KopparbergDave #32 8 months ago

    I love all the people criticising one of the few truly original (AND good) games of recent years yet they probably have bought Calls of Duty 1,2,3 and fuck knows how many more, all very similarly linear machismo laden messes of games. Give the guy a break, if gaming is now for the masses it also means there's some range in there. Range meaning we can have the tripe and also have some classy maybe more thoughtful games without everyone needing to stress an opinion that Braid was a load of tosh for them so clearly must be tosh for everyone. So what if there's one guy who's a bit pretentious, best to have that than every game developer being an unoriginal sequel crazy dick wanting to DRM your eyeballs..
    Edited by KopparbergDave at 27/09/11 @ 21:29

  • infernox1 #33 8 months ago

    @midnight_walker i think hes talking about in terms of ram. the vita has more than the ps3 for example.

  • DSR3 #34 8 months ago

    Portal 2 > Portal > Braid

  • Subdominator #35 8 months ago

    I guess that's what he has to say now that Braid PS3 didn't even make what it cost to do the port and with having pissed off Microsoft so bad in the last couple of months there is no way that they allow The Witness on XBLA. But it's a really lame excuse if you're talking about consoles not being powerful enough and then announcing the game for iOS. This is just Blow being the dick he is, I've never seen a more arrogant, self-centered and annoying developer. I'd prefer dinner with Kotick over Blow. The guy makes one (1!!!) good game that sells 400.000 copies and thinks he has the right to compare his next game (which is nothing but a puzzle game with fancy graphics) to Portal 2? And worse, he actually criticizes Portal 2 for what it is? FU sir, FU.

  • dirtysteve #36 8 months ago

    He's not in the same league as Portal. He hasn't even proved he's anything more than a one-hit-wonder yet. That's why he's hiding behind the 'art' pretension, he's not sure he can cut it.

  • Jon1292 #37 8 months ago

    Braid was a pretty game an all.
    But the gameplay fucking sucked.

    I don't think he has any right to imply he could do it better.

  • azic #38 8 months ago

    Just how long till an apple console is sitting under your TV set.
    2 years tops I say! And they will dispose of XBOX and PS3 over night.
    I bet MS and Sony are shitting it.

  • upselo #39 8 months ago

    I think he raises very valid points, and I'm awaiting The Witness patiently.

  • Lemming81 #40 8 months ago

    Whether you think he's up his own arse or not, he's correct. Some of you are acting as if he said Portal 2 was shit, but he didn't at all.

    Or is this all deflection from console-only gamers feeling left out? I have to say a big 'U MAD BRO?' to the entire comments section, I think.
    Edited by Lemming81 at 27/09/11 @ 22:28

  • Canyarion #41 8 months ago

    I actually agree with the Portal 2 thing.
    The puzzle rooms were great, don't get me wrong. But after the plot twist you're thrown into the deep... literally and figuratively speaking. All you do is walk walk until you hit a wall, you look around, shoot 2 portals and then it's walk walk again. Pretty boring, it's why I still haven't beat the game.

  • schachmatt #42 8 months ago

    All of this is less controversial than mainstream gamers make it out to be.
    The whole industry would be stagnant without independent minds like his.

  • Kaminari #43 8 months ago

    It's not like The Witness is going to beat the crap out of God of War 3, is it.

    I'm dead tired of this "5-year-old tech" argument. Consoles don't follow the same evolution path as desktop computers, period. Only a bad programmer can fail to understand this.

  • Raindog_Jim #44 8 months ago

    No release for consoles? That's a shame since this was one of my most anticipated games for 2012.

    *heart breaks*

  • Matthew_Hornet #45 8 months ago

    @midnight_walker You might want to look up and compare the specs for iPad 2 and XBox 360. Especially the memory, which is what Blow is talking about. Let me summarise it for you: half the fillrate (on a lower resolution), 1 Ghz dual core vs 3 Ghz tri-core, and 512 MB of RAM both. Also at least 16 GB of hi speed flash memory vs a regular hard drive.

    The current generation of consoles is very, very old, and there's a new, better iPad every year. And this game isn't coming out for another year. Now imagine what hardware the iPad 3 is going to be running on.

    It might be uncomfortable for some people to face, but very soon Apple's gadgets are going to become more powerful than either 'next-gen' console. It's only logical that Blow wants to take advantage of that. (And if you truly believe that it doesn't matter how powerful the hardware is, that 'he should just program better', then you are sadly deluded.)

  • Xardan #46 8 months ago

    I cant believe people are comparing Braid to a game like Portal in here, they have nothing in common.

  • Machiavellian #47 8 months ago

    "All day long, you read on forums and comments how game x is crap and game y is shit, but as soon as someone from the industry is not full of praise for something, and actually has something quite interesting to say about the subject to boot, a lynch mob forms"

    I think people more have a problem with his pompous, full of himself attitude than voicing an opinion.

    Or it could be that the man gave his opinion on something and because people disagree, they also have to call the person pompous etc. This is the problem with forums, no one can just disagree without feeling the need to label someone or belittle them. People on forums want developers to care about what they think but get in a huff if their point of view differs.

  • Quixz #48 8 months ago

    @Matthew_Hornet

    Blow is full of crap and are you are comparing a ARM based CPU with Xenon?

  • aaronali #49 8 months ago

    pompous ass. i loved braid, but i loved portal more.

  • SimonM7 #50 8 months ago

    The message in Braid was very personal and won't resonate with everybody. It's like expecting Chasing Amy to resonate with everybody. If you haven't lived it, or lived something evoked by it, it sorta doesn't work. It's increcibly niche, it's in a most fundamental way a niche, arthouse game and the fact that not everyone gets it is as essential to its impact as anything about it.

    Braid is a game full of allegory, and anytime anyone uses allegory - in any medium, film music poetry, you name it - it requires a familiarity both with the language of that symbolism and the feelings it points to. People are quick to dismiss something they don't understand when they assume it's implied that they're dumber for not doing so. The token response is to lash out, discredit it and discredit anyone who's taken to it. That's the case for anything with more personal and specific aspirations in any medium. Portal 2 begins and ends telling you things straight. It doesn't require you to bring any special understanding of the themes with you into the game. It is, as someone put it, an entertainment product.

    EG of course is there to fuel the fire with its troll-o-riffic highlighting and headline click mongering, but what John is saying is absolutely sound and perfectly valid. It's saddening that the knee-jerk response is to take sides when both games, even when viewed strictly from a video gamey perspective, are so very, very good.

  • Paul_cz #51 8 months ago

    SimonM7, thank you for a great post.

    It saddens me to read posts here quite often.

  • dagas #52 8 months ago

    They can manage to port Battlefield 3, The Witcher 2 and other high profile games to the 360, but not some indie game? Why can't he just say it's because he thinks he will make more money on the PC instead of blaming the age of the console when Gears of War 3 manages to improve on GoW2 which managed to improve on GoW1, proving that there is still power to be tapped out of the console.

  • bodhi85uk #53 8 months ago

    "Portal is brilliant, and if you dont think so you must be stupid" - Yahtzee

  • linea #54 8 months ago

    @dagas he doesn't say it's impossible, or even that it won't happen, just that at the moment it's not worth their while given the technical challenges.

    They're a small, self-funded team and Blow says his most important priority is breaking even so he can continue making games. Can you blame him?

  • Yossarian #55 8 months ago

    Portal 2 was the best Pixar movie I ever played. It was nowhere near as good a videogame as its predecessor, or anywhere near as good as Braid for that matter.

  • madmaardigan #56 8 months ago

    Gutted....

    It doesn't look particularly high spec- its a big, empty island.

    It seems a bit much to invest in a high spec PC just for this, I guess it will come to the consoles eventually.

  • FortysixterUK #57 8 months ago

    Is it me or does he seem to be talking utter bollocks most ( not all ), but MOST of the time.
    What a twat. A small indie game does not a developer make.
    ...gosh don't know what happened their, I went all Yoda for a sec.....oh well...

    " A fuck I do not give, a twat this man is...yeeesssss"

  • Monkey_Puncher #58 8 months ago

    This industry needs people like Jonathan Blow, whether you like him or not. He's not scared to speak his mind, even though he's bound to piss off a lot of people in the process.

  • TheApologist #59 8 months ago

    A person who is not PR led. A person willing to take financial risks to make interesting games. A person who will publish on platforms that do not require him to compromise his vision for the game design. A person who believes games can be something more than they usually are.

    Yeah he probably has a big ego, but that's probably what you need one to do what he's doing. We need more, not fewer people like this making games.
    Edited by TheApologist at 28/09/11 @ 10:19

  • des #60 8 months ago

    Crysis is running on PS360 and some shitty indie puzzle game needs better specs...amazing
    lol

  • obihobson #61 8 months ago

    Games as Art
    Braid was a platform game with some hippy emo text and some piano mood music FACT

    It was more or less A level art student Mario FACT

    I still love indie developers though, there keeping the dream alive...

    Just MO of course!!

  • Z101 #62 8 months ago

    By the way. He said he would like to make the game for the Wii U because it has much more RAM.

  • miiiguel #63 8 months ago

    My art is called egocentric soft porno
    Or maybe it's just narcisism
    My one and only subject
    Goes from something like anything but
    Me ism


    Wouldn't it be easier for Beardsley
    He could drop the paintings
    And photograph his penis
    Or take pics of the chicks
    Yeah, you know what I mean
    Wouldn't it be easier for Escher
    He could drop the marh
    And make it happen on his matress
    2 girls and a cam
    3 girls and a cam
    Put a dog there and you got polaroid scam

    Lick lick lick my art-tit
    Lick lick lick my art-tit
    Suck suck suck my art-hole
    Suck suck suck my art-hole
    Edited by miiiguel at 28/09/11 @ 11:44

  • Matthew_Hornet #64 8 months ago

    @Quixz "...Especially the memory, which is what Blow is talking about..."

    I can sort of understand people who don't care for art games and just want to shoot terrorists in the head, and don't like that Blow has an opinion different than theirs - but how can people see three screenshots and think that they know better than the guy who made it what kind of hardware the game should need? He wrote the damn engine, don't you think he knows what he's talking about?

    (BTW The Witness is using a baked hi-res dynamic GI solution, that's Lightmass(GoW3)-class graphics. But since there are no lasers, blood or explosions I can see why you might think it doesn't look as good.)

  • miiiguel #65 8 months ago

    Dude, don't think the problem is what he's trying to say, it's the way he sounds. Fuck, I spent my evening watching Fassbinder's Querelle and I'm not saying you plebes who watched CSI last night are lesser, am I ? (see, that what that guy sounds...)
    Edited by miiiguel at 28/09/11 @ 12:53