Ken Levine: sex in games is "silly"

By Fred Dutton Published 7 April, 2011

"It’s a puppet with its clothes off."

Developers' general reluctance to include sex scenes in their games is probably for the best, BioShock mastermind Ken Levine has claimed.

Only a small handful of studios have dared try, and for good reason, the Irrational Games boss explained in a VG247 interview.

"I think it's not about being interactive. I think it's more about people not understanding what it is," he said.

"If you think about the amount of, for example, nudity in a videogame... it's not even nudity. It's a puppet with its clothes off. There are other problems as well. It's kind of silly in videogames right now, because – again – puppets with their clothes off.

"It's more like Team America. The sex scene in Team America as opposed to, you know, the sex scene in Black Swan," he added.

Levine did however go on to argue that the fact that there is even a discussion on the topic shows that that the games industry is still suffering from an image problem.

"The fact that's even controversial says that the perception of the industry is that we're making toys or something, as opposed to making creative expressions for a range of audiences – including adults. I think there's still some prudishness.

"There's even some prudishness in the industry itself. I did an interview recently and someone pointed out, 'Ken, you use a lot of foul language.' And I was like, 'Jesus, come on. We're all big boys and girls here.' If I'm going to drop an F-bomb, I'm going to drop an F-bomb. I'm a big boy and I get to do that. It's one of the privileges of being an adult."

Levine's next game, the presumably copulation-free BioShock Infinite, is due on PC, PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 some time next year.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (65) Latest comment 1 year ago

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  • beastmaster #1 1 year ago

    Sex scene in Meet The Feebles > Team America

    Edit: Or should be be Meat The Feebles?
    Edited by beastmaster at 07/04/11 @ 18:38

  • Architect_z #2 1 year ago

    Disagree! The God of War sex mini game isnt silly, you get loads of red orbs from it. :p
    Edited by Architect_z at 07/04/11 @ 18:54

  • randompanda #3 1 year ago

    Sex in general is quite silly, with all that prodding n all.

  • Apaar #4 1 year ago

    I dislike Levine's cocky attitude.

  • TOOTR #5 1 year ago

    @Apaar

    I see what you did there. But I think others are being a bit pussy about it.

  • NimbusTLD #6 1 year ago

    randompanda's obviously not getting any ;)

    edit: wow, no one's getting any! :p
    Edited by NimbusTLD at 08/04/11 @ 14:33

  • menage #7 1 year ago

    Porn doesn't add much depth to sex either btw, so I wouldn't place sex on such a high pedestal. I find sex in any form of medium missing the point most of the time. Can still enjoy watching things doing it though:D

  • ZeroAX #8 1 year ago

    True, sex scenes in games up to this point have been bad, but books and comics also feature sex scenes. Does the fact that we are talking about letters and ink change the fact that they have a reason for existing?

  • CaLeDee #9 1 year ago

    He's right, and the people who actually care about the sex in Dragon Age / Mass Effect really creep me out.

  • Embar #10 1 year ago

    Couldn't agree more. Until we're beyond the uncanny valley anything beyond humorous mini games is going to look ridiculous.

    I'm looking at you Dragon Age.

  • CaptainQuint #11 1 year ago

    As of now he's right.

    Not sure he will be in ten or so years.

  • Murton #12 1 year ago

    Have we really got to the point where Levine's opinion on game design trumps others in the industry? I think sticking binary "moral" choices into games is silly, especially when they bear no consequence on the storyline and don't really give the player any advantages or disadvantages, see Bioshock and the Little Sisters.

    He is right of course, sex scenes in games are unecessary and generally very poorly executed, but think about what he said "it's a puppet with its clothes off" now is he referring it to a puppet because it isn't real or because generally the games industry writes puppet-like characters with little to no personality? Perhaps a little of both?

  • Architect_z #13 1 year ago

    Activision should release Call of Booty: Modern Whorefare

    The first set of real time first person sex games.

  • TheEnforcer000 #14 1 year ago

    I don't know... Leisure suit Larry had me hooked after shagging the hooker. Also taught me about condoms considering Larry dies from an std if he doesn't dome up.

  • Embar #15 1 year ago

    It's a puppet because it looks like a puppet. The context of the sex scenes is not in question here, people are getting the wrong end of the stick.

    I believe his issue was purely from a visual perspective. Game character models are too rigid, not realistic enough and too poorly animated to pull off scenes of a sexual nature.

    CGI scenes on the other hand would be a different argument as that is outside of the game, so to speak.

  • grayn #16 1 year ago

    "It’s a puppet with its clothes off."

    A sexy puppet.

  • kalinichenko #17 1 year ago

    Tell that to Kratos but do watch out for the Blades of Athena tho.

  • Wyrm #18 1 year ago

    Worked fine in Heavy Rain.

  • Mark1412 #19 1 year ago

    @Words_Over_Guns

    Ah jesus not this shit again.

    It's not even puppets with their clothes off because characters are always still half dressed, such is the half-heartedness the industry approaches the subject with. And most the time it's completely gratuitous, even Mass Effect or Heavy Rain I only bothered chasing relationships so I could giggle at the awkwardness.

  • the_dudefather #20 1 year ago

    24 years on and sex in games still can't beat this

  • Windsong #21 1 year ago

    Yeah Levine, and porn is just ones and zeros flying across the screen.

    Seriously, someone should smack this guy.

  • the_dudefather #22 1 year ago

    @Windsong
    'porn is just ones and zeros flying across the screen.'

    Is there any zero on zero action?

  • Adaptor #23 1 year ago

    If sex(iness) in games is so silly then why did they put a 'puppet' with almost ridiculous cleavage in the trailer for Bioshock Inifinte?

  • Bander #24 1 year ago

    Problem is, as long as games continue to feature depictions of attractive young things in figure-revealing outfits without going anywhere near the topics of nudity and/or sexuality, this medium is going to continue to be seen as appropriate only for adolescent schoolkids, not adults. Nubile no-nonsense killers with chastity belts is a ridiculous concept, good only for the same target audience as superhero comic books.

    Having said that, these are games we're talking about, interactive challenges where player should be dictating the story, and presumably not have a free hand... Sex in the mainstream game genres probably is silly, and maybe the issue of believable clothing should be given priority until there's some more grown-up genres and developers willing to take risks.

    As for puppets, unconvincing models and animation needs to be improved for everything really, not just naked time. Why should there be a distinction?

  • twoism #25 1 year ago

    There's a difference between pointless sex in games, and sex that serves a genuine narrative point. If done right, I don't think it's silly at all, whether or not it makes pre-pubescent teens giggle is another matter. Games are rapidly approaching a certain cinematic quality after all, and for Levine to deny that is a bit odd IMO.

  • Gearskin #26 1 year ago

    It's a cartoon with its clothes off. It's an actor with its clothes off. I'm reading a book, and this story is TAKING ITS CLOTHES OFF!

    ... it's not silly. It's a character. And it's natural that a well rounded, believable character can have sex. Regardless of the format.

  • Stuz359 #27 1 year ago

    "If I'm going to drop an F-bomb, I'm going to drop an F-bomb. I'm a big boy and I get to do that. It's one of the privileges of being an adult."

    I wish someone had told the FA that.

  • Golgo #28 1 year ago

    Bah, Duke Nukem will put this argument to bed.

    Just struck me: why does Ken-the-renegade, Ken-the-anti-prude, say 'F Bomb'?
    Edited by Golgo at 07/04/11 @ 20:31

  • Zaiz #29 1 year ago

    This reminds me that the saddest human being I know saved before the sex scene in ME1 and with Miranda in ME2, and he was so proud to show it to me. I was on the verge of saying, "Good job seducing a woman by picking the 'have relationship' option that many times."

  • tenebrae #30 1 year ago

    > "sex in games is silly"
    Yet it is an entire industry in the East. And looking at the number of those games and companies doing it (ahem), it probably makes some good money too. So the comment really becomes "making money is silly."

  • munki83 #31 1 year ago

    Ken Levine obviously didn't seduce Garrus in ME2, got to love a bit of lizard loving.

    I thought someone like Ken would understand that sex is sometimes necessary in context of a game. If we forget about some of the more explicit MMOs out there there isn't much sex in video games and if there is any its more like 80s action film sex than porn or the "sex" scene in the black swan. Yes it looks silly, yes the industry treats us all like idiots when it comes to sex but much like sex with a stranger its unremarkable and soon forgotten.

    I may of lost my train of though, must of had something on my mind.

    Edit: Also the Sei sex scene in Alpha protocol. Ken needs to spend more time playing games :p
    Edited by munki83 at 07/04/11 @ 21:06

  • drhickman1983 #32 1 year ago

    I agree with Levine on this. Character models still don't look real enough to make acts of sex work, they'll look awkward and wooden (and not that kind of wood)

    Oddly though, I think a sexual scene in a game would work better when the characters are stylised, when the art direction isn't going for total realism. Though it would be hard to pull off (not that kind of pulling off). I've seen animated sex scenes (and no, not hentai (ok, some hentai), rather some arty shorts I've seen at festivals), where the art style was used to heighten the mood and atmosphere.

    Though, rather sadly I'm afraid to say, all my talk of more stylised characters having sex has now created the image in my mind of Ilo and Milo doing it hard :( I don't like it when my mind corrupts innocent characters :(

    edit: it got worse, the mentions of Black Swan made me think of Aranofsky. Which has now made me think of Ilo and Milo recreating the ass-to-ass bit from Requiem for a Dream D:

    damn you shattered innocence.
    Edited by drhickman1983 at 07/04/11 @ 21:12

  • metalangel #33 1 year ago

    Adaptor beat me to it, Elizabeth (Bioshock Infinite female lead) has massive, massive cans.

    So instead I'll say Ken should go play Meet n' Fuck on Newgrounds.

  • Mister-Wario #34 1 year ago

    "The fact that's even controversial says that the perception of the industry is that we're making toys or something, as opposed to making creative expressions for a range of audiences – including adults".

    Unfortunately, with a few exceptions the nuance and maturity of most titles is very low. Call of Duty seems to be something largely dominated by 13-year-old boys if comments on it are anything to go by. And let's face it: with the exception of the Wii a large number of games seem aimed at young males. You want to change perceptions? Offer evidence that their perceptions are wrong.

  • dudefella #35 1 year ago

    The bigger problem is that relationships in most games is handled with all the grace of a blunt shovel, like in Bioware games. It was handled well in Heavy Rain from a story and character perspective, but it still just looks really silly, two dolls rubbing against each other.

  • zatorax #36 1 year ago

    Being an adult mean dirty talk? So the Americans think? I am so sorry this country ...

  • immateriaux #37 1 year ago

    Don't think it matters if it's puppets, or the sex of team America as opposed to Black Swan, it exists, it should be there. I expect there are many legions of volumes of various analysis that try to explain why humans prefer killing to fucking, at least publicly anyhow, but I wish the games I play would grow up a bit and just take it as read, people fuck far more regularly than they take head shots with sniper rifles that ejaculate volumes of spurting blood...

  • glottis0 #38 1 year ago

    The sex in Dragon Age 2 was shockingly bad. Some of the worst animations in the game! Also, I felt like Hawke was kinda half-assed about it, given his prowess in combat. I expected him to throw a flask of smoke at her feet and then reappear behind her... :S

  • Shabbaranks #39 1 year ago

    No sex for me as am too busy killing people in games, this is acceptable of course but sex, how dare they.

  • metalangel #40 1 year ago

    @glottis0: that sounds like a good way to do it.

    "Now we shall have sex!"
    *throws flask*
    *disappeared in cloud of smoke*
    *reappears behind her*
    **SHLUP**
    "Ooooh!"

  • spekkeh #41 1 year ago

    Shooting people in games is just silly, it's just puppets with their heads off.
    Acting in games is just silly, it's just puppets doing some drama.

  • JoeGBallad #42 1 year ago

    Best summary of sex in videogames: Consolevania review of Leisure Suit Larry for Xbox, Rab says something along the lines of folk being snooty and 'pretending they don't like tits anymore'.

  • Red-Moose #43 1 year ago

    What the fuck is an F-bomb?

  • ChuckNorris #44 1 year ago

    Xenogears pulled it of quite admirably.

  • Salaminizer #45 1 year ago

    motivation aside (banging every woman you can), The Witcher has it right with the cards. especially if you compare the character models with the cards and realize how bad it would look in a cutscene. so they just leave you with the thought.

  • suicidal_penguins #46 1 year ago

    Xenogears evidently could keep it up

  • Agiel7 #47 1 year ago

    I think the best description I've heard of sex in a video game was: "akin to two mailboxes banging against each other."

    I'd feel a bit better about it if developers didn't insist on it being rendered in-engine. I think developers shouldn't underestimate the power of an animated cutscene. You see what Relic did with the hand-drawn in-between mission cutscenes in virtually all their games and you realize that the presentation of an otherwise well-written script of a game like Mass Effect really mars the experience.

  • captainCandy #48 1 year ago

    I need seksksksks

  • djed #49 1 year ago

    What's wrong with playing with puppets?

  • ATNR1 #50 1 year ago

    "It's more like Team America. The sex scene in Team America"
    That's funny, cause the first thing I thought when reading the Heading was, "America Fuck yeah!"

  • styles_dg #51 1 year ago

    So sex in movies is 'projected light' with its clothes off? ....you're a moron, Levine.

    Games are all about immersion and imagination ...clearly his is pretty pathetic.

    Edit: I should clarify that I think sex in games CAN be a a very powerful element to promote the story (Mass Effect did it pretty well because the focus was more on the relationship than the sex) ...but when it's sex for the sake of sex, that's just not very interesting and gets old fast, ie: Dragon Age. So in summary, when it's done well it's useful ....dismissing it entirely is either a sign of arrogance or poor judgement.
    Edited by styles_dg at 08/04/11 @ 07:26

  • watu #52 1 year ago

    I thought all characters in vid games were "puppets", but we still get absorbed in what they do...

    Personally, the red-headed chick that hangs out next to the ship's glaxy map in Mass Effect 2- that's the first time I wanted my character to try and score an in-game character (just cos I'm not used to RPG-type games and I got involved in the conversations of game characters for once) and I would have got stimulation out of seeing it simulated......and by "stimulation" I simply mean the stimulation one get's when one's in game "avatar" is killing bad guys, buying shit or making any number of interactiogn with other in-game characters....the stimulation that a good imersive games gives you.

    I think this guy kind of goes back on his argument by pointing out that lack of sex in game is just puritanical prudishness in society that looks on video games as something only for kids....

    I don't want sex for sex's sake in games, (that's what porn's for- as well as actual sex, lol!) but it makes perfect sense that the space marine I'm controlling should want to root the sexy girl in skin-tight sci-fi clothes after a long space flight and no Mrs Space Marine anywhere on the scene.....

    Sex now saturates much of the movie industry because humans are sexual beings and actually act on it a lot of the time...(big surprise!)...it was only ever kept out of movies because of prudishness- people werent' having less sex in the olden days...

    Sex in games like Mass Effect, GTA and Red Dead is something I would think of as quite "natural".

    ...but that's just me....

  • hippyjump #53 1 year ago

    It's only good for virgins anyway, their largest target audience.

  • skoypidia #54 1 year ago

    Was I the only one who liked shaging Shani in Witcher?

  • MrChuckles #55 1 year ago

    He was making a decent amount of sense until he said 'f-bomb' and then he appeared about 12 years old.

  • PlugMonkey #56 1 year ago

    spekkeh
    Acting in games is just silly, it's just puppets doing some drama.

    But puppets doing some drama is...puppetry. I'll watch that. Puppets doing porn? Not quite so interested. I believe that was the original point.

    styles_dg
    So sex in movies is 'projected light' with its clothes off? ....you're a moron, Levine.

    Before calling people morons you should probably stop and check to see if you've actually understood their point. Otherwise, you do run the risk of looking like a bit of a moron yourself. Sex in movies is people with their clothes off. Most people find naked people more interesting to look at than naked mannequins, Barbie dolls or Thunderbird puppets. Or, indeed, videogame character models.

    EVERYTHING is "projected light"? That's just how your eyes work!

    I think Levine has a point. Character models and animations are still pretty wooden and puppetlike. As long as they're carrying off some story and drama, I don't really mind, but as soon as you attempt something purely physical like sex, uncanny valley yawns wide open and you're left with something deeply un-erotic.

    If Levine is so wide of the mark, can anyone think of a sex scene in a game that they actually found sexy?

  • Shinetop #57 1 year ago

    The sex in Black Swan was just pixels/film grain with their clothes off. I mean, seriously, by Levine's definition sex only occurs when you are witnessing light bouncing off actual people into your own eyes.

    Also, way to undermine your own games. Every meaningful event in Bioshock was now "a puppet acting meaningful"?
    Edited by Shinetop at 08/04/11 @ 10:56

  • PlugMonkey #58 1 year ago

    The sex in Black Swan was just pixels/film grain with their clothes off. I mean, seriously, by Levine's definition sex only occurs when you are witnessing light bouncing off actual people into your own eyes.

    Oh, Jesus wept. How is that even remotely at all what he's saying?

  • disappointed #59 1 year ago

    For a long time there was no sex or nudity in films. Never-the-less, they carried on telling stories about love and passion. Eventually it just seemed ridiculous to be cutting away from the physical act in stories that centred around people's sexual desires, so the censors were persuaded to relax their view. Gaming is nowhere near that situation yet.

    (decades later, they made Showgirls but by then it was too late to have a rethink)

  • TonyHarrison #60 1 year ago

    I'd agree with this right now, as I don't think the tech to do it justice is available right now. Take Heavy Rain, David Cage likes to go on about how his engine is the 'bestest evar' (suk it Sukstar!), and yet when you watch Ethan and Madison going at it, it's like two mannequins pawing at each other. And the kissing is just pathetic, unless their lips were meant to not actually make contact...

  • skoypidia #61 1 year ago

    So basically some people here think sex scenes in video games are bad because they are not graphic enough!!!

  • TheTrueSpin #62 1 year ago

    I sometimes listen to interviews with videogame developers and I am always shocked at how unprofessional some of them seem. Sure, these are some artistic boys and girls, but how often do you hear a movie director drop the "f-bomb" when being interviewed about their latest movie.

    The only people holding back the industry are the people in it...

  • DRUNK3N-_-DRAGON #63 1 year ago

    Ken get me some tits in infinite! oh forgot to mention Madison mmmmmmmmmmm

  • Adaptor #64 1 year ago

    The fact that sex in games looks silly is the best reason to keep putting it in (har). What if developers through the history of games didn't dare to put in (dramatic) content becasue it didn't look completely lifelike?

    Because sex is one of the most important facets of being human and very powerful, both visually and as a storytelling device, trying to render it realistically could actually help games cross the uncanny valley faster. Levine's attitude that it's just too silly isn't really productive and maybe even shows his own prudishness.

    @PlugMonkey: Aren't you creating your own definition of puppetry to make your point? Who is to say a puppeteer can't make his puppets look like they're having sex and still call it puppetry? Your interest, or lack therof, doesn't change that.

    Like everything in games, it isn't the polygons, textures and sounds that make a game believable, it's the way your brain fills in all the gaps and turns all of it into believable things to which you can have an emotional reaction. Better graphics and animation will fill some of the gaps but they're not necessary for a believable experience. That also goes for sex scenes in games.

  • Adaptor #65 1 year ago

    @redbarony: Thanks! Not exactly new here but I don't comment that often. Somehow this article got my attention ;)