L.A. Noire tech is "interesting dead end"

By Fred Dutton Published 31 March, 2011

David Cage discusses future of mo-cap.

The impressive motion capture tech that fuels Rockstar's forthcoming open-world crime epic L.A. Noire is nothing but an "interesting dead-end" according to Heavy Rain creator David Cage.

Rockstar showcased DepthAnalysis' Motion Scan technology in a clip released late last year, reproduced below. It demonstrated the game's remarkably smooth facial animations, leading many to proclaim that the infamous 'uncanny valley' had finally been bridged.

Quantic Dream boss David Cage, however, isn't so easily impressed. Speaking in an interview with CVG, he complained that the process was both impractical and too pricey.

"I think it's an interesting solution to a problem for now. But it's also an interesting dead end. That's exactly what I feel. Their technique is incredibly expensive and they will never be able to shoot body and face at the same time."

Cage then explained how the system that Quantic Dream is currently using allowed both body and facial movement to be tracked simultaneously.

"We are doing that now [at Quantic], and our next games will be shot with performance capture," he said.

"We see a huge difference between shooting the face and body separately and shooting everything at the same time. Suddenly you've got a real sense of acting that is consistent. You can't imagine how related what you say with your face is to what your body does. [Those using MotionScan] will never be able to do that.

"The other thing is that they can't have real time lighting. Their technique means they can't have lighting the way I think we should do it."

He then went on to claim that this technology would be capable of producing Avatar-esque photo-realistic visuals within the next five years.

"I think L.A Noire looks good - honestly, it does - but I don't think they'll go much further than where they are. With the technology we use, we can improve; there is a lot of room for improvement and we hope to show very soon where we are now.

"We've made significant progress since Heavy Rain and will continue to make progress until we reach the stage of Avatar. That is probably three, four, five years from now.

"Maybe it's going to require a new [gaming] platform, but when you look at where real-time is right now, it's probably where CG was five, six years ago," he added.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (68) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • SBfistfun #1 1 year ago

    Pfft

  • Stompy #2 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 23:13:35 17-04-2012

  • X #3 1 year ago

    Rival dev in 'ours is better than yours' shocker.

  • ReverendSpeed #4 1 year ago

    Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey, David. Hey. Did you hear LA Noire's getting featured at the Tribeca film festival as an Official Selection? Hey. Hey. David. Hey. Did you hear that? Hey, where you goin'?

  • Claudiov1.0 #5 1 year ago

    David is wrong in a way, but right on the other, one it is expensive, but is is not a dead end...

  • Dave #6 1 year ago

    I predict EG will use Face value as the review tag.

  • JoeGBallad #7 1 year ago

    Meanwhile, sega have been quietly using fantastic facial recognition in this generation's yakuza games and getting amazing results.

  • Phantom_Dynamite #8 1 year ago

    David you should praise the tech for what it is bloody amazing, I know you are saying Quantic is doing the same for body and face but you need to show the goods.
    Edited by Phantom_Dynamite at 31/03/11 @ 22:16

  • Yossarian #9 1 year ago

    If only everything David Cage had ever been involved with wasn't an uninteresting dead end...

  • Murton #10 1 year ago

    A lot of people don't like Cage for a variety of reasons, but the man does know his stuff.

    This "interview" however smacked a little of "so what? mine's better" and I think Cage realised that and that's why he suddenly switched to praise the system. The words "dead end" were ill-advised though, personally I would have gone with "give great results, but is both limited and expensive, perhaps to the point of being impractical" saying pretty much the same thing, but with a bit more diplomacy, the way Cage said just gives those who don't like him another sound-byte to beat him round the head with.

  • Fixxxer #11 1 year ago

    I'd say he's right. I suspect the games of the not-too-distant future will just have digitised actors and the systems will be able to record face and body at the same time without trouble, which will undoubtedly be better in every conceivable way.

    What they've done is make a big poking device out of christmas roll tubes and cellotape to a turn a light off that is too far away to reach whereas Cage is working on developing a 'clapper'. Although I suspect it'll be worse for a while yet.

  • Jimster71 #12 1 year ago

    Don't the Uncharted games already do motion cap of acted scenes? Hardly something new.

    Really looking forward to LA Noir though, the detail of the animations looks amazing.
    Edited by Jimster71 at 31/03/11 @ 22:34

  • Ultrasoundwave #13 1 year ago

    He can't even admit that LA Noire looks (and probably plays) better than his game?

    What an asshole.

  • Daeltaja #14 1 year ago

    Well from a consumer perspective it is some amazing tech. Leaps and bounds better than of that used in Heavy Rain.

  • kitsuneyo #15 1 year ago

    Will LA Noire be better than Heavy Rain? Probably.

  • lockload #16 1 year ago

    Anyone who saw this kissing scene in heavy rain realised how bad that tech was when charcters interact, it was like two robots getting it on

    LA Noir looks great in the face but it looks like a lot of the processing power has gone to that as the texture, landscape look average

    Thats more to do with the current tech, once next next gen comes around we can have LA noir like face graphics for the whole scene. obviously the game will prbably cost 150m plus to make so cage is right for most sompanies it would be too expensive but rockstar can pretty much do what they like!

  • randompanda #17 1 year ago

    The technology will only get cheaper the more it gets used.

  • Kaminari #18 1 year ago

    Yeah, face textures are very good in Heavy Rain, but that alone doesn't make the characters look realistic enough. And lipsync is terrible in HR, which often breaks the suspension of disbelief.

  • drxym #19 1 year ago

    It's not an interesting dead end but it's clearly got its own limitations to overcome. To capture the faces they sit the actor in a special chair and scan them. It's only later that their face is composited onto their body movements, and coversations and eye contact between chars are lined up. It's easy to imagine how badly botched it could turn out - stilted dialog, characters not looking at each other, janky head / body coordination. Imagine Star Wars Episode 1 levels of atrociousness x10. Not to say LA Noire will be like that but the tech is not some panacea. Bad production, bad acting, will look even worse if its not applied properly.
    Edited by drxym at 31/03/11 @ 23:12

  • SvennoJ #20 1 year ago

    Wow that looks good, but he has a point that there seems to be a small disconnect between the body movements and the face movements. Let's hope that they don't waste it on cheesy dialogue.

  • stoopidgreg #21 1 year ago

    "My technology is better than your technology"

    We'll see.

  • SpaceMidget75 Verified Senior Software Developer, Minerva Computer Services #22 1 year ago

    Way to sound like a bit of a cock there Cage.

  • MattEdWithCheese #23 1 year ago

    well to use the beautiful words from Cage's own pen " go fuck yourself in the ass"

  • Penguinzoot #24 1 year ago

    Let's hope that they don't waste it on cheesy dialogue.

    Personally I'd quite enjoy cheesy dialogue. It'd be fitting for the whole film noire thing. But hey, that's just me! :)

  • McShifty #25 1 year ago

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating. GTA, Red Dead Redemption and most probably L.A Noire have reached levels of gaming excellence that Quantic Dream simply haven't, regardless of what technology they used to make it. Despite Cage's criticism of Rockstar's performance capture tech he could certainly take a leaf out of their book when it comes to scripting and voice acting.

  • paulf #26 1 year ago

    it's not about the tech but the way you use it

  • Dizzy #27 1 year ago

    Inferior dev call superior dev "dead end".... good one David.

  • Rack #28 1 year ago

    While he's clearly biased I can see his point, LA Noire characters move like human heads plonked on top of Thunderbirds puppets.

  • byakuya83 #29 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 10:03:41 30-03-2012

  • tvcasualty #30 1 year ago

    My understanding is that the actors are evenly lit from all angles, eliminating shadows during capture so the dynamic in-game lighting has nothing to clash with. Am I wrong?

    It's short-sighted to badmouth other teams working toward the same goal. As with any emerging technology the most effective solutions will be an amalgamation of everyone's best ideas, not just your own.

  • Ror1984 #31 1 year ago

    David Cage makes it sound like Quantic Dream are just doing what Ninja Theory did a few years back for Heavenly Sword, as in hiring performers and having them act out the scene while capturing all the data.

    Don't get me wrong, the HS cutscenes were amazing (as were the performances from Andy Serkis and Anna Torv), but let's be honest here, L.A. Noire looks like a whole new level of 'realism'. Very impressive.

    Also, I'm aware that these comments aren't just Cage shouting "listen to me!" into the wind and hoping someone pays attention, as I'm sure someone asked him what he thought of this technique in an interview... but everything I read from the guy makes him come across as a bit of an arse to me.

  • Accordi0n #32 1 year ago

    Cant help but agree…but maybe not for the best reason.

    The tech in Heavy Rain produced good results, but with quite obviously not perfect facial animation.

    Every thing ive seen of LA Noire has amazing animation, but i wouldnt say it was more realistic, the faces are quite clearly pasted onto the bodies and the graphical limits, the faces looking horridly plastic makes it look much worse to me.
    It seems with this tech they have effortlessly jumped the hurdle of facial animation…but landed right in the bottom of uncanny valley…i find it hard to take seriously.

  • Pwnsweet #33 1 year ago

    but when you look at where real-time is right now, it's probably where CG was five, six years ago"

    I was watching Toy Story, Shrek and Final Fantasy The Spirits Within 5-6years ago and current real-time looks nowhere near as good.

  • watu #34 1 year ago

    Groan, why do editors/writers have to frame people/debates in such a negative way....

    Read the whole article and it's simply one person's opinion on where tech is heading, not a putting down of what the LA Noire tech has done......

    You may not like his game- I din't play it- but he's right. Isolating awesome faces seperate from the body acting is not the way forward. LA Noire looks amazing but it is a dead end if you follow the tech in that direction.

    What he said about the lighint is also very true and one of the things that I noticed when watching LA noire trailers.....the way the faces are lit when beign caprtured means you're stuck with that texture....I'm willing to be proved wrong on that, but that's how I undertood it from the tech demo vids...

    That doesn' mean that LA Noire could have been done in any other way or that the tech they used isn't perfect for what LA Noire needed, but that's not what this guy said....

  • Machiavellian #35 1 year ago

    What they've done is make a big poking device out of christmas roll tubes and cellotape to a turn a light off that is too far away to reach whereas Cage is working on developing a 'clapper'. Although I suspect it'll be worse for a while yet.

    The problem with David comment is that there is a huge space between developing and actually have developed. To get the kind of facial movement that Rockstar has developed and also include the full body probably isn't something easily achieved. This might be just a mid step in Rockstar development towards the same system. The difference is that Rockstar makes so much money off of their IP that they can have something inbetween while they also develop their next cutting edge tech. So while David and crew is trying to get where Rockstar is, Rockstar has already developed a damn good system now and it better their efforts going forward because they would have worked out a lot of kinks.

    So my take is that yes, David probably should have just stated that the tech is good, can be improved and hopefully we will see those results from their next game.

  • matseffect #36 1 year ago

    Jason?

  • ruddiger7 #37 1 year ago

    He does have a valid point though. While I did enjoy heavy rain quite a lot I do imagine i will like LA noir even more but not just because of more accurate motion capture.

  • kinth #38 1 year ago

    oh god its like being in the school yard "my dad is better than yours"

    lost all respect for david cage now. you would think a company that tries so hard to get a cinematic storytelling experience would applaud the system in la noire for making pretty much pitch perfect facial animation. but no instead he just whinges about its price and how his is better. mo cap was rediculously expensive when it first released hence why it took so long to get to the wide use it has now.

    tbh when he says heavy rains is better he is lying, nearly all the people in heavy rain look wooden apart from one or two.
    i actually didn't complete the game because most of the story revolves around watching these people and the animations left me feeling very un immersed which in a game like heavy rain is pterry much a game ruiner.

    also if he wants to see an interesting dead end he should look at what people say about quick time events before building an entire game around them

  • CamberGreber #39 1 year ago

    "when you look at where real-time is right now, it's probably where CG was five, six years ago"

    ARE you Serious. You mean the special effects quality of 2005s Star Wars Episode 3 which is full of CG yet looks way better than current Realtime CG.

    Unless of course he is disscussing only animation then maybe.

  • orborborb #40 1 year ago

    Edited by orborborb at 01/04/11 @ 06:44

  • SniperZoz #41 1 year ago

    We'll see how he feels when LA Noire obliterates Heavy Rain's sales numbers ... anyone doubting that is a crazy man!

  • Cjail #42 1 year ago

    Uncharted uses actors too for mo-cap but only for the body; everything else is brought to life by the animators: the eye movements, the facial expression, the lips-voice synchronization, etc...
    In L.A. Noire they are using actors rather than relying on animators, so why are they making videogames?
    Why don't they just make movies, maybe interactive movies?

  • Subdominator #43 1 year ago

    +1 to everyone thinking that developers who believe quicktime events are the ultimate gameplay experience should STFU about criticizing other developers.

  • tomjoadsghost #44 1 year ago

    I'm about half way through heavy rain (and I'm kind of enjoying it, though i think i wish I'd have used a pad instead of move) and i genuinely didn't realize, until the comment about lip synching earlier, that voice actors were involved - i just thought it was super hi tech synthesized speech.

    Im kind of confused now as to why most of the cast sound as if they've had mild (and in the case of maddison, not so mild) strokes.

  • Rodster #45 1 year ago

    Jealous !

    L.A. Noire sets a new bar in videogames.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #46 1 year ago

    I was watching the big making of documentary on the Avatar Blu-Ray the other day, and while they had realtime facial capture going when they were doing the body capture stuff, the doc talked more about the animators using reference footage to create facial animation than the capture data. The faces on their real-time capture vis stuff were a bit rubbish.

  • UncleLou #47 1 year ago

    Read the whole article and it's simply one person's opinion on where tech is heading, not a putting down of what the LA Noire tech has done......

    This. Always a bit tiresome when people then post what an ass-hole that person is, that it's all marketing, etc. Nonsense. He's a developer, was asked a question about tech, and answered that (I assume honestly). What's the big deal?

  • zuul #48 1 year ago

    Fire up Heavy Rain and experience right away in the first level how Ethan Mars runs around his house like he has a stick up his ass or a spine made out of a metal pole.

    Yeah, that's definitely the future!
    Edited by zuul at 01/04/11 @ 09:13

  • Sodding_Gamer #49 1 year ago

    All EG have left to do now is a face off. This website is turning into Harry Hills TV Burp. LOL

  • Sodding_Gamer #50 1 year ago

    @Zuul

    The start of heavy rain had me in stiches when Ethan walks down the stairs like a right bender.

  • GamesConnoisseur #51 1 year ago

    LA Noire will have a far wider audience to appreicates its storytelling and games qualties, multi platform and Rockstar's muscles behind it.

    Enjoyed Heavy Rain, but its seemed that LA Noire got much more going for it but hey, the damn game not out yet and we wont know for sure until then and see who talking rubbish or not.

  • mrblonde #52 1 year ago

    I suspect much of la noir gameplay released so far is high end pc stuff, the visuals look too advanced for the aging (but still great) consoles. Lets hope rockstar fix the awful shooting in nearly every title they make

  • Vin #53 1 year ago

    "Jason?"

    Blatantly killed by Ethan's ninja tackle to the ground.

  • IkariW #54 1 year ago

    "he complained that the process was both impractical and too pricey"

    Err, how long did Heavy Rain take to develop again David?

    There is already one fundimental difference between Rockstar's method and Qunatic Dream's method..... Rockstar are releasing a game that is using theirs next month!
    Its all very well to say what he's saying, he has the benefit of watching someone else and commenting on their system, compared to a system no one else has seen yet but him.

    He's not going to say "Hmm we cr@pped our pants when we saw the facial animation in L.A. Noire, because our system is very similar but still 2 years away from release" is he?

    Why can't he be more positive and congratulate Rockstar for taking the 'first step' towards good facial performance capture?
    If your system is better, then great, but lets at least see it David before you start commenting on someone else's yeah.


    Edited by IkariW at 01/04/11 @ 11:02

  • Golgo #55 1 year ago

    David, baby, jealousy is not your best feature.

    Oh, and you're aiming to attain Avator-standard in 5 yrs time? That's a goal, is it, something to aspire to?

  • zedzee #56 1 year ago

    Rockstar should be congratulated for bringing us what seems like a wonderfully interesting game, with many new and exciting elements that are quite rare in the games industry in general.

    What technology they use and how they bring it about - whether they use an all-in-one capture system or otherwise, as David Cage is harping on about - is really their decision and I'm sure they'll make the right one in due course. I'm sure it's very possible for them to upgrade their technology to do exactly how David Cage is waffling on about.

    Is it detrimental to the finished product? Not really, since this is a new class of production and reality simulation. The only thing it affects is Rockstar's R&D budget and I'm sure they're not stupid enough to make "LA Noise 2" in the same fashion (or at all), if it costs a fortune and will look at improving their system instead.

    Honestly, I think Quantic Dream should be celebrating the fact that others are doing similar things and giving them a run for their money, not slagging off other people's behind-the-scenes motion capture systems - all of which are still very much in their infancy, including QD's own tech.

  • TonyHarrison #57 1 year ago

    My Dad is bigger than Cage's Dad.

  • woodyrulesok #58 1 year ago

    I think the LA Noir tech is more viable. You can't capture the high level of detail needed for good facial mocap from a full body stage set up.
    At least with any tech that I know of.

  • Gizzle #59 1 year ago

    Mmm, can't beat the taste of sour grapes...

  • funkateer #60 1 year ago

    It's pretty obvious Cage is talking about new tech they're using for their next game, not Heavy Rain. So the comparisons between the yet unreleased LA Noire and the old Heavy Rain are pretty unfair.
    Of course L.A. Noire has better animation than Heavy Rain, I don't think even Cage is denying that.

  • curtlikesmeat #61 1 year ago

    Thing is though it's just cut scenes. If I want to see realistic faces that I have no control over I'll just put in a dvd. Reminds me of Fifa; you can have all the player likenesses you like but when you actually start playing that doesn't mean a thing because they're too far away to see them. Same for GTA 4.5.

  • AdamAsunder #62 1 year ago

    To be fair Cage has a point in regards to acting consistency.

    However as I thought Heavy Rain was pretentious bull crap I don't tend to put much value on what he says in regards to game design.

  • Ranger101 #63 1 year ago

    ..Combine both technologies and get the best in body and facial movement!

  • Gastrian #64 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 17:56:43 13-04-2012

  • Marshall2008 #65 1 year ago

    Meh, all this from the fuckwit who hired the shit voice actors for heavy rain, the one thing that was bad about it. He is obviously jealous as the facial capture in L.A. noire is stunning looking and makes other game characters look like muppets.

  • des #66 1 year ago

    Good thing that metacritic removed developer scores.David Cage getting 84 on something other than IQ test is a crime against humanity.

  • mukki #67 1 year ago

    Oh well, just a dev pushing his tech vs the competition's... Expect something a bit more interesting from him

  • Amazing_Scenes #68 1 year ago

    How much do you want to bet that LA Noir will easily sell 3 times as much as Heavy Rain? What an arrogant twat Cage David sounds like in this interview.