Cliffy B: "The middle class game is dead"

By Fred Dutton Published 3 March, 2011

There's only room for indies and AAA.

"Middle class games" that fall between AAA and indie stools don't stand a chance in the current climate, so says Gears of War creator Cliff Bleszinski.

During his 'Rise of the Power Creative' presentation at the Games Developer's Conference in San Francisco today, Bleszinski explained that in the current cluttered market, middling titles that don't do enough to stand out are going to fail.

"I'm going to go on the record and say that I believe the middle class game is dead," he said, before drawing an analogy with the movie business.

"It needs to either be either an event movie – day one, company filed trip, Battlefield: LA, we're there. Avatar – we're there. The Other Guys starring Will Ferrell and Marky Mark? Nah, I'll f****** rent that, I don't really care - right?

"Or it has to be an indie film. Black Swan – I'll go and see that. I'll go to The Rialto or I'll go to the AAA Imax movie. The middle one is just gone, and I think the same thing has happened to games."

He went on to warn developers in the audience that gamers today demand value. Fail to offer it, and you're doomed.

"We have a cautious consumer," he explained. "There are so many articles about this right now. People are still smarting from the recession. People don't go to Target anymore and spend $200 randomly.

"If you're on forums and you see terms like 'day one rental' or 'campaign rental' – pack it in because your game is not going to sell."

Cliffy B's own next effort, Gears of War 3, will be vying for your hard-earned pennies on Xbox 360 in September. For more from the outspoken Epic design director, check out the latest episode of GDC After Dusk.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (98) Latest comment 1 year ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • huckan #1 1 year ago

    Surely this should be generic, done a million times before middle bracket games are dead? It doesn't have to be AAA if it's got some invention in it.

  • patchbox360 #2 1 year ago

    AAA for console and Onlive for middle class - everyone is happy

  • JBlokeUK #3 1 year ago

    For what it's worth Gears of War is a 'middle class game' in my opinion Cliffy.

  • graysonavich #4 1 year ago

    He has a point, right. But right, the trouble is right, "AAA game" is just a candyfloss buffer word, right.

    Right?

  • Stepharneo #5 1 year ago

    Well maybe if middle of the road games didn't cost the same as AAA games...I mean we all know which have had more money put into them. There is a clear divide between Indie pricing and AAA pricing and that reflects the money spent on making them, and yet there are some pretty budget games that ask for the full £40 and then they wonder why they don't sell.

    EDIT: Actually didn't Vanquish sell for about £20 and apparently that didn't do as well as expected? (or was it just that Tesco sold it at £20 day one?)
    Edited by Stepharneo at 03/03/11 @ 23:43

  • benfresh76 #6 1 year ago

    Black Swan? Indie?...

    ...Hardly.

  • darkmorgado #7 1 year ago

    "If you're on forums and you see terms like 'day one rental' or 'campaign rental' – pack it in because your game is not going to sell."

    Says the guy that makes games which have campaigns you can finish in a single day.

  • Gearskin #8 1 year ago

    He has a point.

    8/10

    "NO TEN, NO SALE!"

  • graysonavich #9 1 year ago

    @darkmorgado

    Short single player campaigns can be forgiven when the game has a fairly solid multiplayer re-playability.

    Right?

  • darkmorgado #10 1 year ago

    Perhaps, but I'm tired of developers/publishers assuming that every game needs multiplayer - normally to the detriment of the single player.

  • inutaihanyou #11 1 year ago

    Sounds like the US's situation itself :/ Its not pretty at all

  • Sunjammer #12 1 year ago

    I think what he's saying isn't that there is a budget requirement, but that games need to be noticeable.
    I don't see how this is wrong/bad; All he's saying is that if you're making Generic Military Shooter 2, unless you have the big hollywood dollars and big hollywood tech to make it an event, your basic game design is shit out of luck. I totally agree as a designer and consumer.

  • pinkpanzer #13 1 year ago

    A middle class game? Tate Modern Warfare? Join Marcus and Dom on an action packed cultural excursion to London followed by nail biting haggling over olive bread at Borough Market.

  • RodHull #14 1 year ago

    What a strange little man.

  • HisDudness #15 1 year ago

    Can we get a working definition for this AAA shit? The term is constantly thrown around, but has anyone ever pinned down what it means? Is it a grade of beef quality?

    To be fair, "indie" is just as bad. Are Crytek games indie games (not owned by a major publisher) or AAA games (huge budget)?

  • Ingram85 #16 1 year ago

    Hmmm, ive seen 'avatar' and ive seen 'the other guys' and lets just say im not going back to pandora any time soon. 'Gator dont need no skinny blue ho's '.

  • faselei #17 1 year ago

    Right... so basically he's saying mediocre games won't sell?

    Two things wrong with that; 1. EA-esque over marketed shite and film licenses. And 2. Niche games, which will do well enough to see a return.

    Both of these models still work. Mediocre rubbish which was neither of these never did well in any case.

  • drhappy #18 1 year ago

    unfortunately, i agree. i think if anything could speak volumes of this quote, it's that Enslaved sold rather poorly.

  • Anthony_UK #19 1 year ago

    He's got it wrong though, it's not all about being AAA. It's quality, it also has to be quick to pick up and have the longevity. But I think sadly marketing is a massive part of things now also.

    Pretty much all of my friends own an xbox. But only a handful at most have even heard of the likes of Vanquish. A game which makes Gears look very ordinary in comparison.

    What happened to giving demo disks at retail, again on xbox it's surprising out my 'casual gamer' friends how they never even venture anywhere near the demo section of the marketplace

  • dsmx #20 1 year ago

    Or could the "middle class game" be dead because very few games get released in the 20-30 quid price bracket?

  • Kami #21 1 year ago

    Crap, balls, rubbish, smelly turds of great peril.

    The problem is simply that some games are not marketed well - and this, as we know, has been the downfall of countless amazing games. Most are AAA, Beyond Good and Evil in its original time was considered a AAA release, alongside Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time and guess what? NEITHER of them sold well originally, it's only in the latter years did sales take off after those of us who bought into them originally said, "Mate, for £10, you'd be doing yourself and the human race a disservice not getting it." They were AAA titles. Their failure was largely a horrid thing as for some years after that Ubisoft ended up playing it far too safe. But there you go - the market is unpredictable, where success and failure are not 100% guaranteed.

    This gen we are opening up a bit but, sad to say, the AAA titles I believe Cliffy is referring to are first and third person shooters. And truth be told - we're inundated with the damn things (I believe the man has a big responsibility for how this generation has gone perhaps). We're spoilt for choice, and as a result the landscape for these types of games is getting a little bit crowded - eventually there'll just be too much and anyone who tries to muscle in on one or two big names will fail. This will lead to a narrowing of the market - we'll see Gears of War and probably CoD and I'd assume Crysis and a couple of ID games, but the majority won't be able to break through - Vanquish, for example. Brilliant game with some gimmicks, and... well. I can rest my case there I fear.

    Which then brings us to a question. When you have largely cleared a pond out of anything you don't want, is what is left behind enough to sustain interest? Do you really every day want to be looking at a pretty lily - when you could have had goldfish swinning in the clear water underneath it?

    Point I am making here is that it isn't the devs destroying the balance - they're trying. They're breeding in the pool, but if we keep killing them off or removing them from the pool (by this I mean closing talented studios rather than putting them in another place for them to breed inspiration again) then the ones left will be two boys who will die off and then... well. Then you just end up with an empty pond that will start getting mouldy and rank and stagnant.

    It's a combination of factors that is doing some harm to the industry - we consumers have to bear a little responsibility I fear. but equally publishers and distributors and big dev houses with smaller teams. Collectively, as a group, we have created a market that is... well. Let's be nice and call it "difficult". I don't know how we'd go about making it better, but I fear it will have to get much worse before someone sticks their neck out and says "Is this really the best we can do?!"

    Anyway. Long ranty post and I apologise. The industry is a difficult and somewhat more complex affair than our friend CliffyB is letting on, but then, they have shittons of money... I doubt they have as much to fear as some others do...

  • paketep #22 1 year ago

    So is the CliffyB that was a competent designer and a nice guy.

  • Stop-gap #23 1 year ago

    Games are not films, Cliffy. All it takes is a timely demo and then people aren't put off by taking a risk on a middle class title.
    Plus getting into the cinema nowadays costs like 30% of a game, and for money in, amusement out a game goes so much further.

  • azix2 #24 1 year ago

    I'd like to think being a good game still matters. AAA isn't what will get me to buy a game and assuming middle class games cost less to make, would them selling less not be ok?

    what is a AAA game anyway? I am sure an expensive to make game can still suck so he can't possibly be dumb enough to mean that

  • Buran #25 1 year ago

    He's talking about my beloved Unreal Tournament III.

  • captainCandy #26 1 year ago

    Bad games are dead. Or will die fast.

  • Xardan #27 1 year ago

    The guy is right.

  • azic #28 1 year ago

    Well cliff, hate to break to ya, but bulletstorm is a load of old bollox. So that must be what your talking about.

    Where does a Game Designer get the balls to speak for me? I couldn't care less If a game is a AAA or not, it just needs to be a good game, and your last one was shit cliff so please fuck off and go wank over your chainsaw gun in copy-gears of war 3...
    What a knob sock this guy is.

  • metallicorphan #29 1 year ago

    The guy is wrong

  • Pasco #30 1 year ago

    Why exactly did Epic buy Chair Entertainment then? Their games are neither full price nor indie-games.

  • duffers #31 1 year ago

    If you had to imagine in your mind what a stereotypical games developer would be like, "Cliffy B" is what would pop up, ridiculous name and all. Which if you're wondering, isn't a good thing.

  • Machiavellian #32 1 year ago

    Perhaps, but I'm tired of developers/publishers assuming that every game needs multiplayer - normally to the detriment of the single player.

    I am sure those same developers are tired of reading in forums, "No multiplayer no Sale" or my favorite "Singleplayer only, BARGIN BIN".

    The thing is, with rentals, Bargin bins and used game sales, unless a game gets a decent amount of advertising which also cost money, high production values then sales are regulated to one of those categories.

  • peppergomez #33 1 year ago

    "If you're on forums and you see terms like 'day one rental' or 'campaign rental' – pack it in because your game is not going to sell."

    Quoted for truth

  • Stop-gap #34 1 year ago

    "I am sure those same developers are tired of reading in forums, "No multiplayer no Sale" or my favorite "Singleplayer only, BARGIN BIN". + "... see terms like 'day one rental' or 'campaign rental'"

    If I see people leaving that, bearing in mind I'm no dev of course, it's also true that I think (putting it politely) "plonker" and carry on as before.

    -edit my English isn't at its best at 5am.
    Edited by Stop-gap at 04/03/11 @ 05:07

  • unacomn #35 1 year ago

    Just about every publisher in Europe disagrees with his statement.
    Kalypso, Paradox, 1C, Koch, they all publish mid class games, and they're not going anywhere.

  • kenichi-san #36 1 year ago

    What a load off bullshit... 75% of my games are "middle class" games, that's games who got 3-4/6 or 6-7/10 on the scoreboard. And guess what! I like those games so much more then your so called AAA titles :)
    Edit: Btw, i live in Norway and we (atleast i) don't have the ability to rent games, so i HAVE to buy them to try it out (but, i don't mind) :)
    Edited by kenichi-san at 04/03/11 @ 06:31

  • KDR_11k #37 1 year ago

    Tell that to Nintendo.

  • dagas #38 1 year ago

    I hope not, a lot of games that I love are "middle-class" like Persona, but if he is talking about lack of quality rather then lack of invested money and sales then I agree fully, who is going to buy all the mediocre military shooters when there's already a few great ones? It's not good if every game becomes mainstream games, look at Dragon Age 2 and how much they have upset the hardcore RPG fans by trying to sell to non-RPG gamers.

  • Xboxfanuk #39 1 year ago

    He is right the days of generic shooters like Timeshift and the like are over. But I would qualify his statement by saying it needs to be AAA or indie in it's own genre. Some genres are small by nature but sell well to their target audience.

  • Darksjeik #40 1 year ago

    The new generation of gamers these days is all about "pwning n00bs" online. Personally I couldn't possibly care less about multiplayer. Just gimme a solid immersive singleplayer campain and I'll play it even if it is "middleclass".

  • Quak #41 1 year ago

    > the audience that gamers today demand value. Fail to offer it, and you're doomed.

    Yeah, COD is proof of that isn't it? Actually no, it isn't - sorry to break the illusion, Cliffy.

  • turingsway #42 1 year ago

    The only difference between a good middle class game and a good 'AAA' game is marketing budget, their both good games. He would be better to say games without an adequate marketing budget and the weight of a big publisher behind them will not do well.

  • SteveHolt #43 1 year ago

    If Black Swan is his definition of indie, I'm okay with that. I mean, I'm not sure it's very "indie", but it's a good movie.
    Edited by SteveHolt at 04/03/11 @ 09:18

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #44 1 year ago

    It's not nice, but he's not wrong.

    Activision are clearly putting this policy into practice, and EA, too, though they're trying not look so blatant doing so.

  • Slikz #45 1 year ago

    What the fuck?

    All I can say is gears 3 must be coming along pretty well for him to spend his time talking shit. The game better be good cliffy....

  • joe90 #46 1 year ago

    A face you want to punch.

  • Power_n_Glory #47 1 year ago

    He has a point but it’s pretty bad when you hear this coming out of the mouth of a developer. Publishers are piling on the pressure and this is the result. We’ve seen quite a few studios go down and cuts made in recent months so he has a point. True Crime Hong Kong just got canned for this very reason.

    It’s a shame and the Publishers have created their own mess. When putting out a new IP/ niche game, they won’t promote it and want a hit on the cheap. When they find it doesn’t sell because of the lack of promotion, they don’t want to take anymore risks and start producing popular knock offs like military style FPS games. This is where Cliffy has a point. If it’s not a AAA title in that genre then it sell and why should it when there are better titles on the market.

    But he’s not 100% right. Casual gamers don’t visit these sorts of forums and talk about renting games.

  • Trent_Steel #48 1 year ago

    Xboxfanuk - Timeshift was the very first game that came to my head when I read this article. Stuff like that really has disappeared from the shelves in the past couple of years.

    The only hidden gems we get now are on either PSN or XBL and due to my tastes it's these downloadable games that get most of my business nowadays. I think Demon's Souls (which will have an AAA sequel) and Everybody's Golf World Tour are the only "middle class" PS3 games I own that have been successful from a business point of view, and one of them is over 3 years old.

    But why the hell would anyone pay 40 brick for Mindjack? These lower budget games should start at 24.99 and the situation would change. I've still got Afrika, Legendary and Jurassic: The Hunted on my shopping list if I can find them cheap enough. None are great games but they've got that oddball appeal that I like. I miss the PS2 days when it was possible to look up smugly at a shelf full of obscurities none of your mates had heard of.

    Ironically enough ol' Cliffy has just released what has to be the definition of a middle-class game himself. I enjoyed the demo but I'll wait till it's 20 quid next month before I buy.

    Edited by Trent_Steel at 04/03/11 @ 09:24

  • PixelPirate #49 1 year ago

    Funnily enough i rank Bulletstorm as a middle game.

    So thanks, Cliffy but in your own words

    "Nah, I'll f****** rent that"

  • TheApologist #50 1 year ago

    Yet Professor Layton, Phoenix Wright, Gothic, Total War, Football Manager etc. etc. are all not 'AAA' and yet sell enough to spawn endless sequels.

    Or, according to Cliffy-Bullshit, they must now be called AAA because they are successful.

    Without any meaningful definition of AAA, this becomes a circular argument - games that don't sell loads are games that don't sell loads. He calls them 'middle-class' games instead of 'games that sell badly'. Games that come out and do sell loads are either expensive and so AAA or cheaper to make and so Indie.

    So his argument ends up being to point out that games that don't sell a lot don't sell a lot and that's bad for people who make those games. What a genius.

  • nickthegun #51 1 year ago

    The games industry is suffering from the Kevin Keegan Effort Inflation Syndrome. First footballers gave 100%, then Kevin raised the bar to 110%.

    In a few years no one is going to want to buy a shitty AAA game. They will want at least AAAA or maybe even an AAAAA.

    For shame...

  • butler` #52 1 year ago

    I've got mad respect for CliffyB, but what the fuck at this.

    - Black Swan is in no way indie

    - He is out of touch with gaming. He's stuck in his little hardcore 360-biased bubble.

  • butler` #53 1 year ago

    If I had to refute his points in four words I'd say: look at the Wii.

  • MENTAL1ST Verified Senior Software Engineer, Picsel UK Ltd. #54 1 year ago

    AAA is a marketing term. It basically means "sure to sell fucktons". It generally refers to boxed products.

    By that methodology, Professor Layton, Football Manager (in the UK market at least) and Total War are 'AAA' games. Guitar Hero and Rock Band were, but since the last disastrous Christmas period, they're now not. It doesn't just mean Unreal Engine 3 third-person shooters.

    Edited by MENTAL1ST at 04/03/11 @ 09:29

  • linea #55 1 year ago

    We'll see when The Last Guardian is released.

    (I assume it's a game about a passive-aggressive argument in Smiths over who gets to read Polly Toynbee on their morning commute)

  • Murton #56 1 year ago

    He has a point, but his reasoning is flawed. The failing of "middle class" games isn't the fault of consumers but publishers. It's the publishers who don't back their "middle class" games properly, see: Vanquish.

    It's publishers that take "middle class" franchises and kill them after a single outing, see: Mirror's Edge

    It has fuck all to do with "cautious consumers" or "post recession doubt" or any of the other buzz words you have in reserve for this situation, it's the industry that's being cautious and suffering post recession doubt. You've become too risk averse, not willing to spend money on marketing something that's a little different, just throw it out there and hope word of mouth causes it to break even as Vanquish did. Your business models are "all or nothing" Activision's recent activities highlight this all too well, they've killed all but one of their franchises and held a couple of licenses as backup. I suggest Cliffy goes back to the studio and stays there until he has a game to show people, because as an industry commentator he's not to oknowledgable.

  • coolbritannia #57 1 year ago

    Black Swan is an indie film, produced for under $20 million. Aranofsky is an indie director. Black Swan won 4 or 5 Indie Spirit awards the day before the oscars. Cliffy is right, you're wrong.


  • photoboy #58 1 year ago

    Gears of War 3? I'm renting that as soon as it's released. Last Guardian? Mass Effect 3? Bioshock Infinite? I'm renting all of them!

    Sorry everyone, I've just cancelled most of the best releases for the next two years. Oh wait hang on, I've got a good idea...

    I plan to rent every COD game released from now on.

    No need to thank me for cancelling the COD franchise everyone, you're welcome.

  • koopa #59 1 year ago

    That's some bad movie analogy right there...

  • wobbly_Bob #60 1 year ago

    @pinkpanzer

    " A middle class game? Tate Modern Warfare? Join Marcus and Dom on an action packed cultural excursion to London followed by nail biting haggling over olive bread at Borough Market."

    LOL :-)

  • coolbritannia #61 1 year ago

    http://www.empireonline.com/news/story.a...

  • WMain00 #62 1 year ago

    This comes from the same person who declared that PC gaming is dead. You were pretty wrong there Cliffy, so why should I believe you now?

  • actionfitz #63 1 year ago

    ""We have a cautious consumer," he explained. "There are so many articles about this right now. People are still smarting from the recession. People don't go to Target anymore and spend $200 randomly.

    "If you're on forums and you see terms like 'day one rental' or 'campaign rental' – pack it in because your game is not going to sell."

    --
    This.
    hence Lovefilm are doing so well in the UK, hence the rise in the preowned market.
    games with limited value ie: £40-50 for a 4 - 6 hour single player mode and tacked-on online features... " fuck it, ill rent that" is exactly right.
    I don't know about you guys, but I can't afford to blow that kind of money on mediocre or short/low value games... not anymore at least - I refuse to trade in games on pure principle (i used to work in AAA game development)... so I need to be sure a game is a definate 'keeper' before i cough up that £40 - 50

  • IkariW #64 1 year ago

    What a great way to inspire people that are working in the 'Middle Classes' of the industry to do better Cliff, yeah thanks for that.

    If we haven't got a multi-million pound/dollar engine behind us with all the resources we'll ever need and publishers jumping to pile in the cash, well, we might as well give up hey?!

    Its true, Cliffy 'The Buck toothed b@stard' B says so, so it must be!!! ;$

    :)


    Edited by IkariW at 04/03/11 @ 10:21

  • metalangel #65 1 year ago

    True, and tragic. When you're the only person on your friends list with a certain game, and friends actually message asking "WTF is that Game X your playing never herd of it is it ne gud"

    Or when it doesn't even get a review on Eurogamer (Apache Air Assault) but another godawful "Why I hate..." piece goes up.

  • coolbritannia #66 1 year ago

    Cliffy's not gloating here, he's just telling it like it is. How many devs have we seen go under with a 'middle' class game? What he's saying applies 100% to Bizarre Creations, they went from AAA PGR dev to middle of the road blood stone and 'only' 8/10 Blur.

  • Kayin #67 1 year ago

    If you go to forums and they're saying 'campaign rental', chances are they're buying it anyway and just whingeing for the sake of it. Seriously Cliff, don't you know how the majority of forum posters post by now?

    See also: Dragon Age 2. According to the forums, nobody in the world's going to buy it. Let's see how it sells first, shall we?

  • IkariW #68 1 year ago

    @metalangel
    Apache Air Assault was pretty darn good eh... enjoyed that, and like you pointed out, probably not classed a 'AAA' hence lack of reviews, but didn't mean it wasn't enjoyable all the same.

    @ coolbritannia
    I see your point, and thats fair enough. But what exactly is 'AAA' whats the difference between 'AAA' and 'AA'? is it purely sales? who quantifies that from game to game? CLiffy B? doubt it.
    Personally, the term AAA means absolutely nothing to me anyway, you buy a certain type of game based on your preferences and area of interest. This 'AAA game' b0llocks is just a Pulisher/Marketing/Media bullsh!t term used to measure games to make their jobs easier...

    I'm pretty sure everyone at Bizarre would have disputed the statement of "went from AAA PGR dev to middle of the road blood stone and 'only' 8/10 Blur" I'm pretty sure they'd have a hard time telling what made them miss this mithical 'AAA' status...

    Its AAArse, judge a game on how much YOU enjoy it, not how much someone tells you too!


    Edited by IkariW at 04/03/11 @ 10:48

  • coolbritannia #69 1 year ago

    I can explain Bizarre's fall from AAA status. On the xbox they were the premier racing dev, leading the way with Halo pioneering the early xbox Live service. On 360, PGR3 was the only decent launch game, though this waned a little with PGR4 once Forza was an established franchise.

    After that, they made a Bond title I could easily get confused with all the other Bond titles, and a racer that was confused with another title released at the same time.

    I know Activision screwed them over with marketing but the point stands. Exactly the same thing happened to Rare, they were crucial AAA devs on one console, entirely disposable on another.

  • IkariW #70 1 year ago

    So what your saying there, is that this ledendary 'AAA' status seems to be dictated by Publishers right? as the point about changing from xbox to 360 is null, as you said that PGR3 was the best launch game on 360? Is that not AAA, a system seller? what is if that isn't? I'd say that Bizarre would have been firing on all cylinders with that wouldn't they?

    Hence my point about it being a bulsh!t made up term that doesn't apply to developers. No one can say whether a game is going to be 'AAA' apart from publishers and the media and its for their own sakes! To say a Dev isn't a AAA Dev is just a nonsense comment, in my opinion of course.

    P.s. I'd have said PGR 4 was a much better game than PGR 3... but again, that probably comes down to personal preference.

    Edited by IkariW at 04/03/11 @ 11:03

  • Ryze #71 1 year ago

    He's right...well - HE'S RIGHT!!

  • HermitArcader #72 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 09:17:39 22-12-2011

  • coolbritannia #73 1 year ago

    Ikari, I don't really understand your point, sorry dude.

  • kangarootoo #74 1 year ago

    His film analogy is bullshit, though unsurprising. All it boils down to is him saying games and films will be divided into "proper films" (Avatar) and "arty shit" (Black Swan).

    What a SACK of nonsense, for about 15 different reasons. Seriously.

  • IkariW #75 1 year ago

    I think there is also the point that certain films suit being watched on the cinema (Flashy special effects etc) certain films don't (Lots of dialogue etc) thats not to say that they don't have an audience.

    Personally, people who 'sooth say' the industry just need to stop. What will happen will happen, and it will happen for a reason.

    Another reason his comments grate a little is that I'm personally FED UP with people comparing the games industry to the film industry!!! The two are totally different, this insistance on being more 'film' like is part of what is driving this AAA b0llocks.

    Films are great, don't get me wrong, they have their place. But games have their place, and its a much 'richer' place creatively and in terms of audience participation in my opinion.



  • IkariW #76 1 year ago

    @coolbritannia

    Hey no need to be sorry at all, I've got to the point where I've forgotten what my point was!
    I tend to rant... ahem. I guess at the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their say, including Clifford. ;)
    Edited by IkariW at 04/03/11 @ 11:21

  • Mushi-master #77 1 year ago

    Maybe the film industry comparison isn't the best, and the term 'AAA' is pretty woolly, but basically he's just saying what most of the industry is saying these days.

    He's alluding to the fact that something like 10% of games account for around 90% of sales, and the gap between the big-sellers and the also-rans is getting larger and larger all the time.

  • IkariW #78 1 year ago

    ^^^ Now you see, if he'd have just said it like that, I'd have been fine with it. ;)

  • HermitArcader #79 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 09:17:39 22-12-2011

  • coolbritannia #80 1 year ago

    It's sad how musicians don't get a chance to be crap these days. The industry really does bleed the creatives dry and then sacks them off. You have to have an amazing 1st album or you won't get a 2nd.

  • kongzi #81 1 year ago

    I agree, except where he tries to blame it on the recession, because that would free the industry of blame. Personally I'm at the age where a lot of people stop gaming and doing things like life, family, jobs and all that. They just lose interest, but these are also people that happily continue to shell out big bucks for stuff like HBO series boxes and gadgets like ipads. What they are saying is that they've lost interest in the kind of dull, predictable and frankly immature content that has been coming out of the industry for years (and which CLiffy's outfit seems to specialise in). But they are still very much interested in tech gadgetry and deep, involving entertainment.

    That is telling me that it's not just the recession (entertainment is pretty recession proof anyway), but that the industry, for all it's focus on casual consumers and bringing the whole family into the fold, is still missing out on a HUGE chunk of what could be a very core audience. Problem is, if you want to satisfy them you're going to have to really think about smart stories, design, production value... so it's inifinitely harder to do than to port some old wack shit for motion controls. ANd to be honest, right now I think there's only a handful of studios up to making anything like that, and they are held back tremendously by the general mood in the industry that still seems to think gamers are pancake-faced 14 yr olds and every games has to at least have something to placate the ones among us that have just started masturbating.

    When was the last time you've seen a woman in a game that didn't have huge tits and a tight figure? Is your girl like that? Do you even have a girl?

  • gnrlstuart #82 1 year ago

    middle class games just need to remember that they arent AAA. i decent demo before release and a smart pricing strategy should do the trick.

  • Ranger101 #83 1 year ago

    Tell that to that shitty Sniper game that has somehow made a profit.

  • coolbritannia #84 1 year ago

    I doubt anyone is still reading this, but I wonder where XBLA, PSN and Steam fit in to Cliffys world view?

    Surely the new middle class of gaming?

  • HermitArcader #85 1 year ago

    Post deleted at 09:17:39 22-12-2011

  • dunbain #86 1 year ago

    Doesn't anyone get that Middle-class games refer to budget size, and not quality?

    The fact is that budget equals graphics, bells and whistles etc., which determine marketing dollars, because you can't possibly go wrong in advertising something that by all market-tested indications 'ought to sell'. Marketing costs 5 times as much as the dev. costs. That's why publishers drop games even if they're out of beta-testing, because it's not worth promoting a game that won't recoup ALL of the costs involved in the sale.

    This guy loves games (you'd know if you watched the interview) and laments that lost middle ground like most of us here. His is a sad, but accurate assessment of current and future market trends. He's also fully aware of his impenetrable status in the industry being cultivated by shameless self promotion (in addition to genuine talent, of course).

  • hiddenranbir #87 1 year ago

    Some middle-games end up being some of the best damn games around.

  • abot #88 1 year ago

    Actually Black Swan is not an indie film. Black Swan is distributed in the UK by Fox UK and in the states by Fox Searchlight. Both are divisions of Fox - a major corporation owned by Rupert Murdoch. Fox IS NOT an indie movie studio.

  • duffers #89 1 year ago

    Imagine if we lost this man tomorrow and thought what he's given to the world. Jazz Jackrabbit, the use of "bitch tits" in a trailer and Gears of War. Our generation's Alexander Bell.

  • Discalceaterabbit #90 1 year ago

    Well maybe your "middle class" game should not be released with a AAA price tag.

  • silversun #91 1 year ago

    cost and profit should be important to game makers, if they can make a game at a low cost and make a profit then it does not mater if its a middle bracket game. but i agree with alot of what cliffy says.
    if a company is worried they wont sell call of duty numbers , should they give up , well i think no , i think they should try there best to make the game break even or profit , they need to think about what resources they have and how much it will cost to make something and i would hope they make the game because they want make a great game that people enjoy.

  • ExplodingClown #92 1 year ago

    @kongzi: Thank you, eloquently put. Also, what percentage of male characters in big-selling videogames look like their breakfast consisted of beef and steroids, or have an emotional range broader than anger/wisecracks/insults/hoo-ah etc? Ironic considering the biggest target market, young males, is increasingly flabby and indolent....

  • dom6918 #93 1 year ago

    Can anyone say 'batman: AA"?

  • O11Y #94 1 year ago

    The fact he's overlooking is that most "middle class" games start out with AAA ambitions, it's just that along the way they don't quite get there. His proposal sounds like, "unless you know it's going to sell shit loads then don't bother" which seems to me like a flawed argument. You only have to look at Guitar Hero to see that even the most 'guaranteed sellers' can always sink like a stone.

  • craziii #95 1 year ago

    why the hell is eurogamer asking this douche bag for opinions? I didn't read, just wanted to post this.

  • mortiz666 #96 1 year ago

    He's right, but it's disturbing that he's talking like it's a good thing. He's also giving the false impression that indie is a good place to be, you have to either be extraordinarily talanted or extra ordinarily lucky (infact probably both) to make a successful indie game. You can pour your heart and soul into an indie project, do hours that would drive most people mad, lose relationships and put your health at risk and it's still more likely you'll be working on a flop than a success. Even if it is a relative success it still may not be enough to pay your bills.

    The games industry has become far too top heavy, it's now as bad if not worse than the movie industry.Solutions aren't easy; I think things might improve when the economy picks up and people are more willing to risk their money on smaller projects. Aside from that the pre-owned games market issue needs to be tackled. Basically one purchase of a game can pass through the hands of 10 or more consumers and it's not like the pre-owned copies go for that much cheaper either. I've seen pre-owned for a fiver or less than the new copies, the only difference being that the retailers pocket near 100% of the profit. If pre-owned was regulated it'd spur people on to buying new games.
    Edited by mortiz666 at 05/03/11 @ 12:25

  • Chrasomatic #97 1 year ago

    "games with limited value ie: £40-50 for a 4 - 6 hour single player mode and tacked-on online features... " fuck it, ill rent that" is exactly right"

    You just described Bulletstorm! That's what my old man used to call "A F#$%ing Day One Rental!"

  • Madder-Max #98 1 year ago

    he's got a game coming out and is trying to see off any competition. its just a sales pitch