Indies angered by new Xbox dash

By Fred Dutton Published 1 November, 2010

Update marginalises independent games.

Yesterday's overhaul of the Xbox 360 dashboard has upset a number of independent developers, who claim it makes it even harder for their games to find an audience.

The revamp moves Xbox Live Indie Games out of the games store proper and hides it under a new tab titled Specialty Shops alongside the Avatar Marketplace and Game Room.

Gamasutra reports that developers are taking to the App Hub forum to voice their discontent.

"I'd like to know the rationale behind it - at least then the community could try and come up with constructive alternatives, rather than being pushed further into obscurity," said Deej, developer of Clover: A Curious Tale.

Weapon of Choice studio Mommy's Best Games posted, "I'm hear to mourn Indie Games being known as 'games', which I suppose we must now rename Indie Specialties."

Developer Projector Games added "Steam Heroes was one of the first games to come out after the new dash change and I have to say that our sales have been beyond horrible - which is suprising, as I'd say it's one of the better games I've released on XBLIG."

We've contacted Microsoft to explain the move and will update when it responds.

Picture of Fred.

About Fred Dutton

Fred Dutton is Eurogamer's US news editor, based in Washington DC.

Read more articles from Fred by visiting the Fred Dutton archive page.

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Comments (60) Latest comment 2 years ago

Comments for this article are now closed, but please feel free to continue chatting on the forum!

  • Kami #1 2 years ago

    Fair enough, to be perfectly honest am I the only one who finds the new look boring and rather sterile? Even the new load-up intro seems overly designed - swish swish what the balls Microsoft I JUST WANT TO PLAY FABLE 3!!!

    I mean, fair enough to finally update it... but I'm not yet convinced. It's just... bland now.

    And moving indie games... that feels a bit cheap. Some of the better games I've played this year have been indie... they really should kick up a fuss.
    Edited by Kami at 01/11/10 @ 23:15

  • Lamargo #2 2 years ago

    The only plus I can give the new dash is the improved audio codec used for voice chat, this could have been a quick little update a looooong time ago though. The look of it is horrid and looks like the before thought stage of a beta. Then to go trampling on InDevs income? Come on, get a grip!

    Looking for a positive side, this could make for more InDevs look to the PC *cough*steam*cough* for more of their better releases, as Steam will get them noticed, instead of seeing PC as the 'social app platform' brush that it has been tarred with lately.

  • Xardan #3 2 years ago

    I think its vastly improved in almost all regards. It seems slick and easy to navigate and is obviously more efficient now.
    Edited by Xardan at 01/11/10 @ 23:23

  • b00n #4 2 years ago

    I definitely like the look, simple and clean, and above all else very fast. I don't need more than that for menus.

    On the Indie Channel.. I'll care when that channel is available where I live, fix that first and I think developers better put pressure to get that sorted. If games are good, people will look for them.

  • Spook #5 2 years ago

    Found it!

    One good point, the "newest" tab now contains 50 games, meaning that games will have a greater shelf life. And the other tabs also contain more games on show. I understand where the developers are coming from, it's well tucked away, but it's on the same tab as avatar marketplace and the music games add-on, so maybe they will gain from passing trade? The likes of myself will still be buying. :)

    Oh and the whole info screens for each game is a million times better, loads quicker (even the gallery!)

    So is the increased shelve life a good trade off for losing it's own tab?

    Edit typos
    Edited by Spook at 01/11/10 @ 23:30

  • Distributor #6 2 years ago

    Always cry babies around. Like the xbox Dash is the ONLY way to get indie games known around the globe.
    Its like people dont read about good Indie games aound the internet. Just doesnt happen. I even made my mom type this because im so deep in the XB Dash, trying to find the indie games that i dont have time to write.

    COME ON DEVELOPERS, stop crying when your poor ass-monkey of a game doesnt do well.

  • Sunyavadin #7 2 years ago

    Add the indie devs to the list of EVERYONE ON THE PLANET NOT EMPLOYED IN MICROSOFT'S GRAPHIC DESIGN TEAM

  • metalangel #8 2 years ago

    The indie games are the least of the new dash's problems.

  • Aradiel #9 2 years ago

    Strange to see the update being describe as slick or efficient, to me it just looks sterile.
    I haven't explored everywhere yet, but the features I used immediately are not significantly easier to get to, the layout seeming almost identical, and boot up seems to take a lot longer.

    All in all, it's pretty rubbish as an update.

  • Sunyavadin #10 2 years ago

    Might I sugest a new indie app concept to one of the devs that make fishtank style things, benchmarking tools, and scrollers for 360 -

    XBox Eye Test.

    It can be a simple app which grades you on two criteria:
    Are you one of the designers of the new XBox dashboard?
    If yes -> you need glasses.
    Have you looked at the new XBox dashboard?
    If yes -> we're sorry, but nothing can be done to save your eyesight. Consider investing in a Dog and a cane.

  • FuzzyDuck #11 2 years ago

    Am i the only one who liked the old "blades"?

    Edit - dang typos.
    Edited by FuzzyDuck at 02/11/10 @ 00:09

  • lucifonz #12 2 years ago

    I have to say as soon as I saw this I had the same feeling. I'm really loving the update, think as a whole its much slicker and smoother, and the marketplace changes otherwise are nice but the Indie section is something which needs bringing to the front, not back.

    Man gamers just hate change though don't they. I remember when NXE hit everyone had a big old bitch-fest over that, then ended up loving it. It's different, deal with it ;)
    Edited by lucifonz at 02/11/10 @ 00:20

  • number3son #13 2 years ago

    That's the very first thing I thought to myself when I downloaded the update - that indie game makers should be (even more) pissed at the way Microsoft handles the service.

  • skuzzbag #14 2 years ago

    Microsoft, what are you doing?

    Giving Indie devs help with with one hand while the other is making rude gestures at them behind their backs.

    You should really try and figure out what it is you want to achieve and go with that, instead of a little here and a little there and concequently ending up not really excelling at any of them.

    The Indie games have been great for the 360 but they could have been so much more were they not crippled.

  • NewbieZilla #15 2 years ago

    "I'm hear"

    I don't even have to say anything.

  • Psychotext #16 2 years ago

    Whilst I feel for the indie devs (I really do, and I've done a shitload to promote the good games on the service)... who the hell thought it was a good idea to put their game up on the day everyone was going to be fucking around with a new dashboard? Seriously... complain all you like Steam Heroes developer but that was a really dumb move.

    Related to that, how on earth do they know / how can they judge their sales yet? The update came out this morning.

  • iwantmynameuk #17 2 years ago

    it looks to me like a `prequel update` borrowed from windows 97 so as not to scare the new audience kinect is gonna bring in.

  • Darren #18 2 years ago

    I like the new dashboard myself and think the Marketplace is a lot tidier and easy to access than before although the missing icon glitch has still not been fixed it seems (lots of stuff for MLB for example, a game that was never released here in Europe). Apart from access being horrendously slow and many of my downloads timing out with "Can't load" errors due to LIVE being hammered, something I'm sure will quickly sort itself out, it's a nice update.

    Not too bothered about the Indie games myself as I've never had desire to try them, what with all the other stuff that is available.

  • darkmorgado #19 2 years ago

    I like the new dash update on the whole, but I agree it's unfair to marginalise indie games like this. Indie games are what have built and maintained the iphones games market, for example, and are also huge on Steam. If anything, we are living in an age where Indies have more influence and exposure than ever before. So it seems unfair and backwards to try and marginalise them. Putting on my tinfoil hat, perhaps MS has agreements in place with major publishers to give preferential exposure to their releases?

    Also, the new dash music reminds me of American Beauty. "Welcome to XBox! My name is Lester Burnum, and in less than a year, I'll be dead."

  • Retroid #20 2 years ago

    They're right.

    There are some changes I've seen in the new dash which I can only describe as "baffling".

  • retr0gamer #21 2 years ago

    I've always been overlooking the indie games.

    Because they still aren't available in Ireland. Sort this shit out MS!

  • Collymilad #22 2 years ago

    Imo the new dash is an improvement in every respect except the topic of the news story.

    Still, the way people get downvoted for having a different opinion on here is really, really pathetic.

    You don't like it, some people do, get over it.

  • rogueJT #23 2 years ago

    Yeah retrogamer, why the f aren't they available in Ireland.

    Why is MS depriving themselves of potential extra revenue for practicaly zero extra cost.

    Doesn't make sense to me.

  • ShiroBen #24 2 years ago

    We don't even get the indie games in New Zealand, but the new dashboard makes me nauseous--literally, after just a few seconds playing around with it I felt like I was going to be sick. I think if I'd continued I actually would've been.

    Aside from that I definitely preferred the old layout, this one is too flat and sterile and awkward.

  • Machiavellian #25 2 years ago

    As far as aesthetics are concerned, I do not stay in the menus long enough to care. What I do care about is speed and responsiveness. Once I was online with the update that's the first thing I noticed. The all white did annoy me at first but getting to where I want to go quicker soon made it moot.

  • 3william56 #26 2 years ago

    Head over to the PSN. Everyone gets equal billing there*

    *Good game developers only: the shitware can stay in it's natural home.

  • KDR_11k #27 2 years ago

    Meh, it looks just like the old one except now you can see fewer items on the screen at once. And of course they've moved the stuff you're looking for AGAIN. The real marginalization of Indie Games happens in the game library where Indie games aren't properly moved upwards when you play them while everything expensive is.

    The 360's GUI is generally bad, it seems the main design goal was shoving as much advertising down your throat as possible. The actual GAMES on your GAME CONSOLE are buried in a menu sub-point and take FOREVER to load, apparently because the system wants to contact the internet for each of the games (without a net connection the games library appears instantly).

    Contrast that to the Wii GUI: The first screen you see once it's fully booted is a list of installed games and tools. If you want to play one of them you just click on it. It's 12 per page so they're quick to navigate. The main menu shows instantly, the SD menu might need a bit of loading but is still pretty fast.

  • siro #28 2 years ago

    I was also suprised how the Indies have gone more or less into hiding with the update. It could have easily been one of the categories in the newly designed game section instead of the specialty store. Maybe they fear cheap indie games cut into the "real" games sales.

    The worst thing I found about the new dashboard is the extreme whiteness of the quick menu. Don't bring the menu up while playing anything dark. Pressed the silver X yesterday while Condemned and thought my eyes are getting burnt.

    They should offer an alternative less white look for non-hip non-Kinect users.

  • GitSomE_UK #29 2 years ago

    This is all Kinects fault!

    Stupid Kinect

    /Kicks Kinect

  • MdaG #30 2 years ago

    I love the new dash board!

  • Sunyavadin #31 2 years ago

    I'm worried if I leave it idling on the dashboard too long it's going to cause screen burn and dead pixels...

  • Perfecto #32 2 years ago

    This was my exact reaction. Come on Microsoft, you should know better by now.

  • Kami #33 2 years ago

    "99% of the indie games are balls anyway."

    Because the big developers are just SO much better... *rolls eyes*

  • Der_tolle_Emil #34 2 years ago

    I like the new dash.

    Never noticed the indie store being moved because it has never been available here in the first place.

    The only thing I really don't like is that the optional media codec pack is missing again everytime they update the dash. I never remember where I have to download that and it renders my windows media center almost useless.

  • beastmaster #35 2 years ago

    They are not that difficult to find.

  • MyPointIs #36 2 years ago

    Well ... this doesn't exactly motivate me to finish my project :(

  • Max_Powers #37 2 years ago

    Hey Indies, here in the Netherlands we've never been able to access your games at all!! How's that for difficulty reaching your consumers eh?

  • paulf #38 2 years ago

    plus points on the new dash it seems faster
    negative points - it looks really cheap

    looks like someone at microsoft saw the wii and said 'that sells, could you copy it please'

  • Der_tolle_Emil #39 2 years ago

    looks like someone at microsoft saw the wii and said 'that sells, could you copy it please'

    They rather saw their own Metro UI (which I like quite a lot).

    By the way, in which countries are the indie games availbale since a lot of people here say they cannot access them at all anyway. Obviously they are available in the UK - any other (european) countries as well?

  • wizlon #40 2 years ago

    As an Indie game developer I have to say I'm very sad. Ok, there were a lot of people out there trying to make a quick buck by putting out an "avatar" game, but lots of us just wanted to make something that people wanted to play, whether it was any good or not wasn't the question. We had our own little world that people stumbled into, they played our games and they probably hated half of them, but at least they played them for two minutes.

    But now... no longer, no one will find us, no one will play our games so we may as well just give up.

    RIP indie games.

  • paulf #41 2 years ago

    Der_tolle_Emil

    in what way does is it like metro ui, different font, different colour scheme, use of images as main navigation elements instead of text

    and from the wikipedia description [link url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Design_Language
    ]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Desig...[/link]

    'Type is Beautiful, Not Just Legible'
    you honestly cant say that about the new xbox dash

    tbh I think it looks like wii without any of the charm

  • mrsquare #42 2 years ago

    @Psychotext

    "who the hell thought it was a good idea to put their game up on the day everyone was going to be fucking around with a new dashboard? Seriously... complain all you like Steam Heroes developer but that was a really dumb move."

    Erm, what? You can't choose when to release a game - you put it into peer review and it comes out a couple of weeks later, once other members have reviewed it. Please think a bit harder before randomly abusing people.

  • Markitron #43 2 years ago

    Maybe its cos I dont use my Xbox religiously but, apart from what I would call a new theme, I cant tell the difference! I know there is now kinect support but the changes seem minimal to me
    Edited by Markitron at 02/11/10 @ 09:18

  • lucky_jim #44 2 years ago

    I pointed out a few weeks ago that the new dash was going to be worse in this regard, I'd hoped that MS would sort it out in the time being but I was clearly too optimistic.

    I don't understand why MS doesn't realise what a good thing they've got here, it's like they're deliberately trying to further marginalise it.

    As for those of you who can't get XBLIG in your countries, it's often (but not always) due to ratings restrictions: some countries don't allow games to be released if they haven't been through one of their legally-established ratings boards, and the community ratings system of XBLIG doesn't cut the mustard according to these laws. In some cases I'm sure it's just Microsoft being slack, though.

    If you can't get XBLIG in your country, you can always set up a free Silver UK or US account, which will give you full access to the XBLIG catalogue as long as you're signed in on that account.

  • roquey Verified Lead Quality Assurance Tester and Compliance Specialist, Universally Speaking #45 2 years ago

    Well having seen this months ago on dev kits i preferred the old one. However i tried for 2 hours to download this and it just wouldnt do it. So glad i got FO:NV for PC instead.

  • AdamAsunder #46 2 years ago

    The zune pass is hilariously bad. They want £8.99 a month or £90 quid a year for the pleasure of it. I got the 14 day free trial and nothing loaded at all for around 10 minutes. I don't think I'll bother thankyou very much.

    I don't mind the new update apart from that, although the guide menu is that fucking searing.

  • Shinetop #47 2 years ago

    Because the big developers are just SO much better... *rolls eyes*

    In terms of a quality versus crap ratio? Yes.

  • dagas #48 2 years ago

    Never tried an XBL Indie game that was any good Most indie games just like iphone apps just seem to be an attempt at easy money.Where are the people who are making the games of their dreams? Do they not care about games or are they just not very good at making games? There are several indie games on PC that I've played over the years and loved, but they all took a lot of time and a lot of work. Instead they seem to want to copy those flash-games that are fun for 30 seconds before getting repetitive.

  • muscleblade #49 2 years ago

    Im angry too since everytime i try to download it i get an error message and wont be able to download it and cant play on Live because of it. Damn.

  • Ranger101 #50 2 years ago

    I looked for indie games when I first booted the new dash up, hoping to see an amazing improvement... only to discover I couldn't find indie games until I went into the 'specialty' menu.

    Indie Games are now the 'special' kids of the class. Hidden away from the other kids, in a corner.

    As for the earlier comment about Indie devs releasing stuff on Steam... do us a favour mate - when you find out how you can do it as an Indie dev, let the rest of us know.

    MS' XNA development team is an excellent resource, despite MS' marketing team trying to hamper them otherwise. They set up a system that works all the way up until you get to the Dash.

  • kangarootoo #51 2 years ago

    @Chaney

    You seem to be implying that a user needs design skills to be able to say whether an interface is good or not.

    This is of course nonsense. If a graphic designer can only produce interfaces that other qualified graphic designers find usable and intuituve, they aren't very good at their jobs, are they?
    Edited by kangarootoo at 02/11/10 @ 11:30

  • d00dl #52 2 years ago

    I say we should show MS what we think by not spending as much in XBLA and diverting that money to XBLIG. There are so many great games out there and they are great value for money. I spend a lot in XBLIG and I can get a lot of fun and variety from spending 800 points there than in XBLA (though that is a bit of a duh! statement). It would be a BIG loss for MS if XBLIG goes down the pan because of their stupidity. It really is a major benefit for the 360.

    EG should make an XBLIG essentials inventory with ratings and let us do some reviews to help keep the pace of products coming out.

    If you haven't spent much time in the indie games section please do and spend some MS points there. Pretty please :)

  • JohnnyFireBlade #53 2 years ago

    Can't offer an opinion on a new dash because for the first five times of asking, the update wouldn't work and on a subsequent attempt, the 360 froze and I had to turn it off despite the warning on the screen telling me not to. :(

    Hopefully I'll be able to get it sorted tonight, but I'm hoping it's not as radical as the last time.

  • ozzzy189 #54 2 years ago

    the arcade games are now really stupidly laid out too. bad idea. apart from those two things i rather like the cleaner look to it all.

  • darleysam #55 2 years ago

    I thought this would happen when I had to root around to find indie games buried in the 'specialist' section, or whatever it's called. Overall, I like the update, but this is a bad move.'

  • Remy #56 2 years ago

    Yeah this was the first thing I noticed too. Very disappointing as I've become a big fan of the indie games section in recent months. It is very hard to sort through all the chaff there already though. Come on EG, you can help them too. More indie game reviews :)

    EDIT - Actually I lie, the very first thing I noticed was I was STILL not able to add more than 100 friends. :( Incredibly disappointed. So what did we lose XB1 and Halo 2 online play for again exactly MS?
    Edited by Remy at 02/11/10 @ 13:32

  • mkreku #57 2 years ago

    Guess I'll turn on my Xbox 360 tonite to see what the fuss is about. Strange, I was enjoying Red Dead Redemption but.. Somehow after I got to Mexico, I forgot what I was doing in the game and it hasn't pulled me back since. And now I realized I haven't turned on the damn thing in weeks (I think).

  • Psychotext #58 2 years ago

    "Erm, what? You can't choose when to release a game - you put it into peer review and it comes out a couple of weeks later, once other members have reviewed it."

    Fair enough, I was unaware that the release stage after peer review was automatic. I was under the impression that once a game had passed peer review it was up to the developer as to when they wanted to set it live.

  • TaniumZX #59 2 years ago

    What have M$ got against full screen themes?

  • FreelanceGames #60 2 years ago

    It appears that child accounts are now blocking the Indie Games Specialty Channel! So basically, I have an XBLIG game called Starchon which my kids can't even download? Please say it isn't so!